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Dev Blog: Fifty-Nine Down

First post
Author
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#141 - 2012-11-16 03:39:06 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
But, none of this matters, assuming he can align to a safe, activate MJD and then press warp when he lands (ie, he can press 3 buttons in order), you cant kill him. He could burn out all his launchers, accidentally smartbomb his drones and mwd 100km off gate before burning out his mwd, and you still cant kill him, because you are in a kiting ship.


He can align to the safe, and he can activate the MJD. The MJD will then go through twenty seconds of painfully obvious spooling up before it activates, after which it's useless for 5 minutes.

Is twenty seconds not enough time to react? Is the long spoolup plus the longer cooldown worth it in the general case vs. a Microwarp Drive? Is its vulnerability to the cheapest and easiest warp-canceler to fit not a tradeoff? I'm not being snarky; I don't know. I'm asking.


How are you going to react? You already have him pointed, and he can warp instantly upon landing.
Body Shield
The Hatchery
#142 - 2012-11-16 04:12:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Body Shield
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
But, none of this matters, assuming he can align to a safe, activate MJD and then press warp when he lands (ie, he can press 3 buttons in order), you cant kill him. He could burn out all his launchers, accidentally smartbomb his drones and mwd 100km off gate before burning out his mwd, and you still cant kill him, because you are in a kiting ship.


He can align to the safe, and he can activate the MJD. The MJD will then go through twenty seconds of painfully obvious spooling up before it activates, after which it's useless for 5 minutes.

Is twenty seconds not enough time to react? Is the long spoolup plus the longer cooldown worth it in the general case vs. a Microwarp Drive? Is its vulnerability to the cheapest and easiest warp-canceler to fit not a tradeoff? I'm not being snarky; I don't know. I'm asking.

The thing is, that the Vagabond, with a longpoint here, because he's a kiting Vagabond, can see it spooling up, and burn 100km in the direction he is pointing.

I challenge the Vagabond pilot to actually be within point range where the 100km point will be. Also, the enemy ship will arrive there at full speed (as said in the description and various CCP posts), so, before he can even be locked, he is:
A) Already Aligned (To a safe, say 5 million km away)
B) At speed sufficient enough to warp

The ship then, unless completely terrible and afk, can immediately warp away on it's align, totally immune to the Vagabond, who is trying to lock it.

Strangely enough, no matter what the distance warped with the MJD, and no matter how many ships with long points are present, the result will be the same (pretty sure the number of long points does not affect the MJD....but I don't remember anymore), because of the target break and the short immunity when you exit warp, and he is at speed and pre aligned. The MJD could go 1km in the direction the ship is facing (aligned to a safe), and is now totally immune to all single target warp disruptors because:
A) No longer Targetted
B) Already Aligned to a warpable location
C) At speed sufficient enough to warp

He cannot be stopped from warping off unless he's in a bubble at this point.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#143 - 2012-11-16 04:39:31 UTC
Body Shield wrote:
The MJD could go 1km in the direction the ship is facing (aligned to a safe), and is now totally immune to all single target warp disruptors because:
A) No longer Targetted
B) Already Aligned to a warpable location
C) At speed sufficient enough to warp

He cannot be stopped from warping off unless he's in a bubble at this point.


Put that way, you're right, it's pretty close to a get-out-of-jail-free card.

IIRC, scrams shut them down, though, so you can keep a newbro around as backup. :-) From a purely design-based perspective, I like the fact that different scrams are needed to counter different prop mods (except for the AB, which is balanced by being relatively slow), but maybe this needs some further refinement.

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pussnheels
Viziam
#144 - 2012-11-16 06:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: pussnheels
i think CCP should have waited rebelacing cruisers till they had the time to fix their T2 counterparts
not only do i feel slightly cheated because i trained logistics to lvl 5 on several characters and now i wonder what is the point since t1 logistics are almost as good

second point and this been known for a long time , several t2 cruisers are on the brink of extinsion
most notable the eagle and the sacrilege, sure other people will point out the gallente aswell

So when will we see some love there

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2012-11-16 08:51:06 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
IIRC, scrams shut them down, though, so you can keep a newbro around as backup. :-)


Unfortunately, that new pilot have to get into web range, which can be quite painful. They would probably end up large smartbombed too.

It's looking like quite a break with the current paradigm where if pointed, you're staying put unless you've got warp core stabs that nerf a combat ship.

Can the MJD be cancelled during the spool up by the pilot?

.

JamesCLK
#146 - 2012-11-16 15:09:12 UTC
Sparkus Volundar wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
IIRC, scrams shut them down, though, so you can keep a newbro around as backup. :-)


Unfortunately, that new pilot have to get into web range, which can be quite painful. They would probably end up large smartbombed too.

It's looking like quite a break with the current paradigm where if pointed, you're staying put unless you've got warp core stabs that nerf a combat ship.

Can the MJD be cancelled during the spool up by the pilot?


AFAIK MJDs can't be cancelled (except by scram). But the direction it warps you in is the one you're facing at the end of the cycle.
Scram Recons are a go. Lol

-- -.-- / -.-. .-.. --- -. . / .. ... / - --- --- / . -..- .--. . -. ... .. ...- . / - --- / ..- -. -.. --- -.-. -.- / ... - --- .--. / .--. .-.. . .- ... . / ... . -. -.. / .... . .-.. .--. / ... - --- .--.

Sparkus Volundar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2012-11-16 16:20:13 UTC
Lol

.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#148 - 2012-11-16 16:50:48 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Actually, in practice the frigate usually dies long before it has a chance to pull range unless their are enough to overwhelm the destroyers.

Sure, assuming that a dessie can actually get in range in the first place. This is how it works currently, after the series of dessie buffs.

Prior to the dessie buffs, however, dessies were rarely used (except as mission salvagers, pre-Noctis) because they could never get in range of the frigs, to lay down their damage.

Ranger 1 wrote:
The reason people don't use cruisers any more is due to problems created when their speed potential was OVER nerfed across the board. Yes, originally too many things stacked that were speed boost related (although frankly the main issue was that most people simply didn't know how to defend against typical nano gang tactics... it's not actually that hard to do). However things went a bit too far and the cruiser class as a whole fell into widespread disuse. There is nothing what so ever wrong with bringing their ability to speed tank up to a respectable level.

Perhaps, but over-buffing the speed isn't necessarily the right answer. As I stated, the problem can be equally solved by adjusting other OP and unbalanced features in the game.

Also, at the height of the speed mess, defending against nano gangs wasn't actually possible, except with another nano gang. The speeds were breaking game mechanics, incl. webbing, bubbles, gun tracking, missile hits, drones, etc. Remember that scrams did not shutdown MWDs back then, either.

In any case, my point is that all of the new speed changes are up, none of them are down (well, I think one dessie got a -1 on velocity). You don't balance weights on a scale by adding more weight to each side until the scale breaks. In the long run, this will cause a problem - and I'm raising the yellow flag now, so that we can try to avoid having to raise the red flag (again) later.


Actually most combat begins with frigates warping in and trying to get within point range. Blink

As to nano gangs, they weren't terribly effective if you fit properly to deal with them (which was easy to predict, everyone was flying them). They were easy to counter, the only reason they enjoyed success is they depended on their targets being stupid and allowing themselves to be drawn out... and there is no shortage of stupid pilots in EvE.

In my opinion cruisers should be significantly faster than BC or BS, but slower than frigates... and as I said before I would have no problem with Dessies being a bit faster than they currently are as well. I just understand that they are geared to fight at range.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Msgerbs
The Ronin Wind
Aegis Militia
#149 - 2012-11-16 18:40:05 UTC
Am I the only one that thinks the Micro Jump Drive will be the most annoying new module ever?
Msgerbs
The Ronin Wind
Aegis Militia
#150 - 2012-11-16 18:52:26 UTC
Kira Hizu wrote:
whats the deal with capitals no changes ? they are t1 hull whats the deal?

No BC and BS changes either. Patience, young grasshopper.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#151 - 2012-11-16 23:00:00 UTC
Sparkus Volundar wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
IIRC, scrams shut them down, though, so you can keep a newbro around as backup. :-)


Unfortunately, that new pilot have to get into web range, which can be quite painful. They would probably end up large smartbombed too.

It's looking like quite a break with the current paradigm where if pointed, you're staying put unless you've got warp core stabs that nerf a combat ship.

Can the MJD be cancelled during the spool up by the pilot?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a combat fleet or camp out there that doesn't have at least one scram in the group.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

I'm Down
Perkone
Caldari State
#152 - 2012-11-17 02:06:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

I'm Down wrote:
Did you guys consider removing warping on grid as a means of enhancing the use of Micro Jump Drives (MJD)

Nothing is changing with on grid warping in Retribution. We are investigating some ideas but they would much more likely end up changing the minimum warp distance rather than completely removing on grid warping.



Even a change to a range of 250km minimum would be a huge step towards correcting some horrible game mechanics atm and add a lot more value to a MJD. It would also be a pretty direct nerf to probing as it would require a lot more posistioning time for a scanner.

Long story short, changes sooner rather than later are a good thing.
tomato1
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2012-11-17 03:00:40 UTC
The Thorax is the classic blasterboat, built for ultra-closerange brawling with ample drone support. It is being improved with a sizable speed increase, an extra midslot and the addition of a hybrid weapon tracking bonus. The Thorax can close range faster than ever before and once it gets within its optimal few comparable ships can stand against it.


I feel like when people talk about how stabber is too fast they miss the whole picture like when ccp says sizeable speed upgrade to thorax really could mean its second fastest t-1 cruiser in the game but no ones going to know at least not untill it goes on test server
Cpt Bogus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#154 - 2012-11-17 05:52:38 UTC
Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes. Your baby, I can has? Smile

Seriously though, I've been waiting for a balance patch like this since 2006. My cruiesrs will be glorious again!
Synthmilk
The United Peoples of Synth
#155 - 2012-11-17 14:06:51 UTC
Mors Magne wrote:
This is all really good, BUT 'walking in stations' should be developed in addition to improvements with ships.

Exploring abandoned space stations and hollow asteroids would be awesome.

If this needs to be done in DUST then so be it, but it needs to be done.


As you have missed the boat, the improvements and updates to the core content of EVE "need to be done", WIS is value added content, and thus takes a back seat to core content.

It also can not be worked on in parallel with core content improvements because both require the full attention of CCP in order to be completed in any reasonable amount of time.

Walking in stations can wait, many of these changes to ships and gameplay in general have been needed for years.
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#156 - 2012-11-17 15:12:25 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
......... He has made poor decisions, and you have made good decisions.

..............and you still cant kill him, because you are in a kiting ship.


These two statements are contradictory. If you cannot kill him because you are in a kiting ship, you are the one who made a poor decision by getting in that kiting ship.

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tomato1
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2012-11-17 15:20:15 UTC
The Thorax is the classic blasterboat, built for ultra-closerange brawling with ample drone support. It is being improved with a sizable speed increase, an extra midslot and the addition of a hybrid weapon tracking bonus. The Thorax can close range faster than ever before and once it gets within its optimal few comparable ships can stand against it.


I feel like when people talk about how stabber is too fast they miss the whole picture like when ccp says sizeable speed upgrade to thorax really could mean its second fastest t-1 cruiser in the game but no ones going to know at least not untill it goes on test server
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#158 - 2012-11-17 15:28:39 UTC
A question about the salvage drone. When you say "salvage", does that mean "loot" as well? Or will this leave a collection of cargo containers strewn about the (former) battlefield?
tomato1
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2012-11-17 16:11:43 UTC
No ones said it yet a about the micro jump drive (mjd) but i think its a fleet mod or small gang war fare not pvp and not the guy that you caught in your gate camp. Would be for some thing more like large fleet. The min warp distance is 150km so from 150-100 can get on your target, like think about main fleet being 200 or more off the other fleet and you get frig 130km or so from them MJD to fleet and you get your fleet to warp close of course you can just use a scan ship but in a way this is faster and you dont need something to warp to... Could see lot more blaster fleets. Another use could be just getting out of bubbles instead of having to burn out.

Thats as much as i can see for tactics, i just dont see it over powered...everyone thinks ccp got all wrong before they got it right but i dont see this mod throwing pvp/fleet tactics off... Just changing it. And you have to remember if an entire fleet has this fit they dont have something else fit :-)
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#160 - 2012-11-17 17:31:58 UTC
Cerulean Ice wrote:
A question about the salvage drone. When you say "salvage", does that mean "loot" as well? Or will this leave a collection of cargo containers strewn about the (former) battlefield?



Salvage only. better pack a tractor beam

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Fuzzwork Enterprises

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