These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#261 - 2012-10-23 21:55:33 UTC
To all you people rejoicing the further nerfing of L4's with this idiotic change, I ask why?
What the hell did someone running a L4 mission ever do to you?
How is their gameplay affecting you?

BTW, those that run BS gunboats in missions, and believe this new AI will have zero impact on them, think again.
I tested it.

Unless your BS has a webber and possibly a target painter on it, I would just love to know how you plan on nailing the tackling frig NPC's, that get under your guns.

Because the new AI instapops small drones now, and Fox Four will be making the AI harder, not easier.
The AI ignored my heavies in missions, but immediately went after the lights.

Fox Four plans on addressing the AI ignoring the heavies, and that means the AI will hammer the lights even harder.

When this atrocity hits TQ, their will be so much loud and long screaming.
Rengerel en Distel
#262 - 2012-10-23 22:15:35 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
To all you people rejoicing the further nerfing of L4's with this idiotic change, I ask why?
What the hell did someone running a L4 mission ever do to you?
How is their gameplay affecting you?

BTW, those that run BS gunboats in missions, and believe this new AI will have zero impact on them, think again.
I tested it.

Unless your BS has a webber and possibly a target painter on it, I would just love to know how you plan on nailing the tackling frig NPC's, that get under your guns.

Because the new AI instapops small drones now, and Fox Four will be making the AI harder, not easier.
The AI ignored my heavies in missions, but immediately went after the lights.

Fox Four plans on addressing the AI ignoring the heavies, and that means the AI will hammer the lights even harder.

When this atrocity hits TQ, their will be so much loud and long screaming.


Don't recall anyone rejoicing the further nerfing of level 4s in this thread, but perhaps i missed it because of all your whining.

Those in BS gunboats in missions will probably handle the frigs the same way they currently do, as nothing will be changing for them.

The AI targeting heavies in no way directly leads to light drones taking more damage. Not sure how one follows the other in any way.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#263 - 2012-10-23 22:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Vatek wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Realistically the scenario mentioned doesn't have the NPC's evaluating if 2 pilots within their area of aggression are allied or not, just the amount of threat generated. So what benefits the allied new pilot in a rifter that isn't generating enough damage to trigger a switch also helps the enemy SB pilot since he isn't shooting the rats


In theory this is how it should work but based on Foxfour's earlier comments about solo ganking in a bomber "no longer being possible" and the devblog indicating that rats prefer to target ships closer to their own size, there is more to the switch trigger than just aggression.

Indeed, but the comment presented about the Rifter flying with a Tengu seems aimed at that very scenario. The Rifter is a frig so the NPC frigs should prioritize killing it but threat level evaluation prevents that (or perhaps just reduces the likelihood?) and keeps them focused on the source of the DPS threatening them. If this general idea is implemented to some degree I can't see how they would fix one without fixing the other.

To be more direct if threat generation is needed to get aggression then something that generates no threat gets no aggression be it friend or foe of the missioner/plexer/ratter/etc. The only question is how hard the NPC's will stick to that mechanic, but regardless PvP'ers will benefit more than PvE'ers since the latter will be trying to generate some threat to the NPC's while the former will be concentrating solely on the PvE'er and generating less, if not no threat to the NPC's.


I think you're forgetting the fact that the new AI hates / loathes / despises EWar. So once the PvP'er lights up the PvE'er with a Warp Scram / Web and starts shooting... he's going to top the hate list.

Regardless of how much damage the PvP'er deals to the Rats or the mission runner... he's still gaining mountains of hate from all the EWar he's doing. Unless you actually imagine the CCP Dev's are going to rewrite the AI code to help PvP'ers (a group they've already decided can just suck up the change).

CCP FoxFour wrote:
If what ever change we make to help mitigate that effects the other gameplay styles as well, then so be it. Our stance however is that those that want to will find a way to continue doing those other activities.


I guess you guys remain overjoyed you don't have any competition, right?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2012-10-23 22:47:21 UTC
Adigard wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Vatek wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Realistically the scenario mentioned doesn't have the NPC's evaluating if 2 pilots within their area of aggression are allied or not, just the amount of threat generated. So what benefits the allied new pilot in a rifter that isn't generating enough damage to trigger a switch also helps the enemy SB pilot since he isn't shooting the rats


In theory this is how it should work but based on Foxfour's earlier comments about solo ganking in a bomber "no longer being possible" and the devblog indicating that rats prefer to target ships closer to their own size, there is more to the switch trigger than just aggression.

Indeed, but the comment presented about the Rifter flying with a Tengu seems aimed at that very scenario. The Rifter is a frig so the NPC frigs should prioritize killing it but threat level evaluation prevents that (or perhaps just reduces the likelihood?) and keeps them focused on the source of the DPS threatening them. If this general idea is implemented to some degree I can't see how they would fix one without fixing the other.

To be more direct if threat generation is needed to get aggression then something that generates no threat gets no aggression be it friend or foe of the missioner/plexer/ratter/etc. The only question is how hard the NPC's will stick to that mechanic, but regardless PvP'ers will benefit more than PvE'ers since the latter will be trying to generate some threat to the NPC's while the former will be concentrating solely on the PvE'er and generating less, if not no threat to the NPC's.


I think you're forgetting the fact that the new AI hates / loathes / despises EWar. So once the PvP'er lights up the PvE'er with a Warp Scram / Web and starts shooting... he's going to top the hate list.

Regardless of how much damage the PvP'er deals to the Rats or the mission runner... he's still gaining mountains of hate from all the EWar he's doing. Unless you actually imagine the CCP Dev's are going to rewrite the AI code to help PvP'ers (a group they've already decided can just suck up the change).

I'm not forgetting that , but rather I'm (potentially erroneously) assuming the idea is for rats to evaluate threat to them specifically. So generating a threat to a non-NPC doesn't really get their attention. I could be completely wrong there though as I'm trying to read into the idea a bit since there are no real details.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#265 - 2012-10-23 22:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I'm not forgetting that , but rather I'm (potentially erroneously) assuming the idea is for rats to evaluate threat to them specifically. So generating a threat to a non-NPC doesn't really get their attention. I could be completely wrong there though as I'm trying to read into the idea a bit since there are no real details.


Logi's 'healing' DPS boats gain threat vs. rats... so you're way off base if you imagine PvP'ers EWar'ing other boats wouldn't gain the same massive hate spikes.

Heck, it seems you can web your own drones and gain the threat (I haven't tested this personally BTW), so it definitely is not going to assist PvP'ers at all.
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#266 - 2012-10-23 22:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I'm not forgetting that , but rather I'm (potentially erroneously) assuming the idea is for rats to evaluate threat to them specifically. So generating a threat to a non-NPC doesn't really get their attention. I could be completely wrong there though as I'm trying to read into the idea a bit since there are no real details.


That's how it should work but the new rat AI is apparently incapable of differentiating the intended target of EWAR. It doesn't care if you web it or if you web the ratter, it just cares that you've activated a web.

Adigard wrote:

Logi's 'healing' DPS boats gain threat vs. rats... so you're way off base if you imagine PvP'ers EWar'ing other boats wouldn't gain the same massive hate spikes.

Heck, it seems you can web your own drones and gain the threat (I haven't tested this personally BTW), so it definitely is not going to assist PvP'ers at all.


Threat generation should take into account what the target of the EWAR is. Other MMOs have managed to achieve this for over a decade now so I don't understand why the supposedly new and improved AI is so dumb that it cannot assign threat based on what the EWAR or assistance modules are actually targeted on.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2012-10-23 22:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Adigard wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I'm not forgetting that , but rather I'm (potentially erroneously) assuming the idea is for rats to evaluate threat to them specifically. So generating a threat to a non-NPC doesn't really get their attention. I could be completely wrong there though as I'm trying to read into the idea a bit since there are no real details.


Logi's 'healing' DPS boats gain threat vs. rats... so you're way off base if you imagine PvP'ers EWar'ing other boats wouldn't gain the same massive heat spikes.

There is a difference between DPS output/EWAR and remote assistance. The former allows easy target differentiation based simply upon which entity the module is activated on. The latter could be activated on a non-threatening entity for the NPC's which requires a secondary evaluation of where the threat from the receiving entity is going. IMHO it's a worthy investment to make but unless a provision was made for it all RR would have to be evaluated as a threat period, while Ewar and direct DPS output could still be directly assessed based upon their effect on the NPC's themselves. But tat this point I'm just back seat developing and diverging from the decided project scope.

Edit: Keep in mind this is something dropped in passing on a comment by FoxFour about a possibility, not being said about anything already in testing or even decided upon.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#268 - 2012-10-23 22:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Vatek wrote:
Adigard wrote:

Logi's 'healing' DPS boats gain threat vs. rats... so you're way off base if you imagine PvP'ers EWar'ing other boats wouldn't gain the same massive hate spikes.

Heck, it seems you can web your own drones and gain the threat (I haven't tested this personally BTW), so it definitely is not going to assist PvP'ers at all.


Threat generation should take into account what the target of the EWAR is. Other MMOs have managed to achieve this for over a decade now so I don't understand why the supposedly new and improved AI is so dumb that it cannot assign threat based on what the EWAR or assistance modules are actually targeted on.


I'd agree with you, but I didn't write the code... I just tested it. My findings pretty quickly showed the AI it was implemented on Duality is rather seriously broken, so I wouldn't expect much from this team. In theory they've had weeks of testing and never noticed that their AI either didn't work half the time, or was easily turned off by sacrificing a single T1 drone.

The long and the short of it, in essence is, if you care enough about whatever you did before this change... you'll adapt and find a new way to do it. And if you don't, well, you'll probably just move on to another game elsewhere. Ignoring all the people flying solo Tengu's who will never even notice the change... other than having fewer PvP'ers / Ninja Salvager's / etc to deal with.

Personally I'm just sick and tired of this doubling down on terrible decisions we see the CCP Dev's making. It's been going on since Incarna and the "No, no this change is awesome and you'd see it too if only your feeble little minds could understand the :AWESOME: we're explaining to you".
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#269 - 2012-10-24 00:03:38 UTC
At this rate of confusion and "what if's?" I foresee this whole change ending up in the trash can.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#270 - 2012-10-24 00:04:49 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
At this rate of confusion and "what if's?" I foresee this whole change ending up in the trash can.


Well, that's one option we know they'll never take.
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#271 - 2012-10-24 05:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
Desert Ice78 wrote:
At this rate of confusion and "what if's?" I foresee this whole change ending up in the trash can.


That's the best case scenario as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to slag on Foxfour but this AI is going to destroy what I consider to be my profession in this game and that's apparently "OK" by him and the rest of the team working on this. PVP is a perfectly acceptable casualty in the struggle to make PVE even more tedious and awful.

Nevermind that it's a month away from release and from what limited testing has been done it's apparently barely functional.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2012-10-24 06:04:14 UTC
This sounds bad idea. Wonder why ccp is trying to destroy this game.. First goes incursions.. Then goes hml's and tengu.. Then goes drone boats and multiboxing PVE.. Maybe ccp want us to stop all PVE? Is only big alliances allowed to make isk with their tech moons? Maybe il just stop bothering with those rats and start mining.. Alltho this new AI obviously affect miners aswell...


I dont like it.. Not even a bit.. There you go Evil
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#273 - 2012-10-24 09:09:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
To all you people rejoicing the further nerfing of L4's with this idiotic change, I ask why?
I enjoy the improved L4s because they're improved. I haven't noticed any nerfs so far.

I can't say that I've noticed anyone rejoicing over any potential L4 nerfs either, should they appear from somewhere.

Quote:
BTW, those that run BS gunboats in missions, and believe this new AI will have zero impact on them, think again.
I tested it.

Unless your BS has a webber and possibly a target painter on it, I would just love to know how you plan on nailing the tackling frig NPC's, that get under your guns.

Because the new AI instapops small drones now
Tried it. The impact was, if not zero, then still negligible. Said tackling frigates were killed using light drones, which were — interestingly enough — not even targeted, much less instapopped, when released. Maybe that was because the rats had something else much higher up on their aggro list…
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#274 - 2012-10-24 09:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Capqu
CCP FoxFour wrote:
There have been numerous questions about what, if anything, we are going to do about how this change will effect certain gameplay styles outside of running missions or ratting. Things like hunting ratters, ninja salvaging, and playing content with your new friends.

For the most part our stance is that we believe you will adapt and find a way to do it. In some cases this may mean increasing the barrier to entry, but we have already seen players coming up with new ways to do the same stuff.

We do have a concern about the ability for experienced players to bring new players along with them on content. We are also looking into this. What effect any changes we make here have on those other forms of gameplay is not entirely certain yet.

One of the things we are looking at is increasing how much threat you need to generate before the NPC switch. The specific case we want to look at solving is as I said an experienced player in a Tengu bringing a new player in a Rifter along. If that new player is doing very little damage we don't want all 15 frigates to suddenly decide he needs to die.

If what ever change we make to help mitigate that effects the other gameplay styles as well, then so be it. Our stance however is that those that want to will find a way to continue doing those other activities.


Alright, thanks for the reply. Disappointing stance in my opinion, adding nothing to the game but at the same time removing content seems like a waste of development time to me. I appreciate that you are now at least considering the affects, even if you don't seem too concerned.

Something I would suggest is removing warp disruption from what the AI perceives as EWAR, since it has 0 effect on the AI.

Also why are you fixing the newbros on the PvE side of things, but leaving the newbros who just lost all their content out of it? Ninja salvaging and solo killing ratters in thrashers is basically how we teach our new players game mechanics, do you not care about them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#275 - 2012-10-24 11:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Tippia wrote:
Tried it. The impact was, if not zero, then still negligible. Said tackling frigates were killed using light drones, which were — interestingly enough — not even targeted, much less instapopped, when released. Maybe that was because the rats had something else much higher up on their aggro list…


Read the thread much?

More than half the testing I did found that the rats would seemingly target my drones, but not deal any damage to them. The few frigate-heavy missions that DID target my drones were rather nasty though. Fortunately the AI is implemented in such a way that I simply need to sacrifice a single T1 light drone and the AI turns off for the rest of the mission.

That was an oddity, for sure.

Vatek wrote:
Nevermind that it's a month away from release and from what limited testing has been done it's apparently barely functional.


And from looking at yesterday's Dev Blog from FoxFour it's fairly obvious he's working on other things now, and likely doesn't care much about this one anymore. Guess we'll see if they bring back Duality again or actually have the mass testing they cancelled.

Keko Khaan wrote:
Maybe il just stop bothering with those rats and start buying PLEX


Fixed your post for what they're probably hoping will happen.


I still stand by my original notion... this change was poorly thought out, and seemingly poorly implemented. it likely won't see any form of continuous iteration and will probably be dumped into the dustbin of neglected features. I personally don't think it gains enough for the player's for the pitfalls and unexpected consequences it entails. Never mind the fact that it's unlikely to increase the enjoyment people gain from grinding through an already boring PvE grind in this game. I'll admit it's more 'engaging' to use FoxFour's words... but enjoyable? Not seeing it.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2012-10-24 11:35:54 UTC
Adigard wrote:
Tippia wrote:


[quote=Keko Khaan]Maybe il just stop bothering with those rats and start buying PLEX


Fixed your post for what they're probably hoping will happen.


Well they just might. But sad for them i aint buying plexes with euros. I used to buy them with isk some years back when i was naab.. When i had time to pve alot... Atm im paying 2 accounts / month with visa. But im thinking to close that other account because of this.Or why should i keep paying real money from PVE BS drone alt if these things hit TQ?

And just for record i havent ever done afk missioning, botting etc..

Have i used 2 accounts to PVE? Yes i have...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#277 - 2012-10-24 12:39:49 UTC
Adigard wrote:
Read the thread much?
Yes. And then I tested it for myself.

Conclusion: using light drones to kill frigates is still as viable as ever — all you need is aggro management, and it (predictably) works the same with these rats as with other Level-1 AI rats. The impact on running L4s is negligible.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#278 - 2012-10-24 13:13:11 UTC
One thing I am 100% sure about is the threat level is getting trumped by the size preference of the NPC's. If the target switching was not triggered until a certain level of threat was achieved it would be fine, I don't mind pulling the drones in after each kill if that would reset the threat on them. But when they can't even take down one target before they get popped that is way to much.

In any mission with excessive cruiser and smaller ships, when I launch small drones they are getting targeted and insta popped before they even engage. medium and heavy drones last longer but can not kill the elite frigates that tackle me.

I expect this would be less of a problem if you are flying missions in a tengu, but in BS what do you do when you have 5-8 small NPC's under your guns? At least in a raven with good support skills you can hit frigs with precision missiles. They don't hit hard, but will get the job done. But if you are running with a full rack of 1400mm guns you need those small drones to be effective. With this change they are near useless.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#279 - 2012-10-24 13:25:59 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
One thing I am 100% sure about is the threat level is getting trumped by the size preference of the NPC's.
I'm not so sure… if that was the case, I would have lost more (read: more than zero) light drones, but I was able to chew through almost entire waves until a drone would get aggro from (maybe) one ship. Even when that happened, it certainly wasn't tied to size — battleships, BCs, cruisers and frigates all seemed just as likely to want to swat the tiny buggers and they all seemed to fail to get their friends to go along with their plans because they had bigger fish to fry, namely my ship.

To me, it seemed far more likely that the ewar hatred trumped pretty much any kind of size preference.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#280 - 2012-10-24 13:36:24 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
There have been numerous questions about what, if anything, we are going to do about how this change will effect certain gameplay styles outside of running missions or ratting. Things like hunting ratters, ninja salvaging, and playing content with your new friends.

For the most part our stance is that we believe you will adapt and find a way to do it. In some cases this may mean increasing the barrier to entry, but we have already seen players coming up with new ways to do the same stuff.

So basically what the community wants is irrelevant, you have an idea that you think is great and will put it into game whether the community likes it or not?
Sounds an awful lot like what happened a couple years ago when CCP did there own thing with zero regard for what the players actually wanted. As I recall that ended in some major account losses and then restructuring at CCP. Followed by a formal apology from the director for the ignorance of the developers. It is the community, the players that pay subscriptions, that make your job possible. Telling them basically to adapt or quit is not something you should be doing.
CCP FoxFour wrote:
We do have a concern about the ability for experienced players to bring new players along with them on content. We are also looking into this. What effect any changes we make here have on those other forms of gameplay is not entirely certain yet.

One of the things we are looking at is increasing how much threat you need to generate before the NPC switch. The specific case we want to look at solving is as I said an experienced player in a Tengu bringing a new player in a Rifter along. If that new player is doing very little damage we don't want all 15 frigates to suddenly decide he needs to die.


Big problem here. This needs to be balanced for the experienced players in a BATTLESHIP not a TENGU. When the T3 cruisers get their balance pass tengu's will not be the top lvl 4 mission boats any more. Most lvl 4 mission runners do not use them now. They will be even less used after they are balanced. Unless you want to completely rework this change after the T3's and BS's are rebalanced.
The most common level 4 mission ship is a PVE fitted battleship, I believe the most popular is still the CNR. These are the players that like bringing along a newer player in a frig, as the frig pilot can take out those pesky web/scram frigs. But now the frig pilot gets insta popped.

CCP FoxFour wrote:
If what ever change we make to help mitigate that effects the other gameplay styles as well, then so be it. Our stance however is that those that want to will find a way to continue doing those other activities.

Fair enough. As far as I am concerned ganking mission runners is getting very close to grieving anyway, making it a little harder to pull off is a good thing.