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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1441 - 2011-10-11 20:14:33 UTC
Misanth wrote:
Pandi V wrote:
I think a lot of people are forgetting that Supercarriers and Titans are supposed to be alliance assets not player assets, which means that whether you can successfully field them or not, should be an indication of the strength of your alliance as a whole in terms of manpower, resources, leadership and organizational efficiency.


* There's no "supposed to be". They're assets of whoever has aquired them, in whatever way they did.
* If alliances want to use their resources to show their strenght, reward their members, or simply has this as some kind of endgame goal, they're free to do so.
* Guerilla warfare is often quite effective, both in EVE as well as RL. If say a 5man corp has a mothership and they're fighting a 100 man alliance who don't, the 5man obviously deserve what they have achived. Does it mean either side should be stronger? Or that the 5man corp are too small to own a super?

I've personally owned multiple supers, I have made the isk for them myself and not had any of them given to me. I've fielded them for my corp, for my alliance, but also for my own personal use. Why would I not? They were my asset, not my alliance asset, and not a fleet boat. Even tho I used it as, at times, it was also my personal ships.


Fit reps on the super, rep the other four members of your fleet as they clear tackle.

Next!
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1442 - 2011-10-11 20:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: CynoNet Two
Velin Dhal wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Hardly
No. Very really.
It doesn't particularly matter that you can counter them with other things — the best counter up until now has been N+1 SCs, because of their ability to go toe-to-toe with both the tanking and the damage output. This will no longer be the case.
Quote:
Here is a novel idea, introduce a new ship or rework the titan to be Super Cap killers.
It's not novel. It's the same deeply flawed “bigger is better” kind of thinking that has brought us to the necessity of this change. It shouldn't be the titan — it should be the Merlin.


Oh I think I see now. Since you can't drop one of your own, no one should. Understood.


I started writing a very precise post with lots of math. It was all about what would happen should a fleet with 250 supercaps invavde a system (this has happened before). The post covered exactly how many sub-capitals it would take to beat their ewar-immune remote repping and counter them, while losing 75 ships to doomsdays every 10mins and attempting to replace their losses at a typical rate. As a bonus I planned to include a rough prediction of how long this would take on a time-dialated node (since a current node would not support this many ships in a stable manner).

But then I realised that you would just skim over it, misinterpret a few sentences then post about how you have more supercaps than everyone else and they're only jealous of you. So instead I wrote you this post:

neener neener ur ships is gettin' nerfed lawl
SuperBeastie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1443 - 2011-10-11 20:15:59 UTC
NERF DESTROYERS when i come at them with with equal numbers of frigates they eat me alive

NERF CRUISERS when i come at them with equal numbers of destroyers they eat me alive

NERF BATTLE CRUISERS when i come at them with equal numbers of cruisers they eat me alive

NERF BATTLESHIPS when i come at them with equal numbers of battle cruisers they eat me alive

NERF CARRIERS when i come at them with equal numbers of battleships they eat me alive



supers are killed by nuets



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcA5g59Zsg&list=FLoWHRYGINTIWXgyJNU77P7A&index=1

A video of goons getting blobed by supers and killing two of them they probably would have killed them all if titans could not doomsday subcaps

[center]SuperBeastie's Third Party Service My in-game Channel is Supers Third Party[/center]
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1444 - 2011-10-11 20:16:38 UTC
thebarry wrote:
Carabusu wrote:
thebarry wrote:
I like these changes a lot, but POS Gunning will also have to be rebalanced IMO.

The 5 minute timer on dreads will make it pretty much impossible for pos gunners to kill them. Previously we relied on the 10 minute siege timer to give us time to kill the dreads(about 2-3 minutes to empty its cap with 3 neuts, than another 4+ minutes to finish it off with the large guns). While it was very difficult even before, I believe now with a 5 minute siege timer it may literally be impossible for any pos, regardless of its configuration and number of gunners, to destroy a dread that's fitted a certain way(think perfect fleet booster, t2 trimarks, slaves) before it comes out of siege and gets repped up by triage carrier(s).



You literally just said EXACTLY why CCP needed to change the mechanic of the Dread and it's Siege timer. Dreads have long been useless due to the 10 minute Siege, and the fact that their tracking is pure shite* in Siege mode.

They are trying to bring them back to the field as a viable option. But fortunately for you, the dreads damage is still crapola on a stick. lol removal of 5 drones...whatever. They buff damage from 625% to 700% in Siege. Okay. Great. Still won't mean much.


I shot sleepers with dread :) so on balance this is great for me and I approve, but at the same time, something should be done to keep pos gunning viable, as well...it shouldn't be a completely useless skill!


Agreed.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1445 - 2011-10-11 20:16:41 UTC
R0ze wrote:
It has always worked for Eve though.. when it started there were just 3 ship classes.
Well, no. It hasn't really always worked — it has just (almost) always been the way it has been applied. That's the whole problem, and the reason we are having this thread today.

That particular line of one-upmanship needs to end, because it doesn't work.

I suppose that's kind of what you then go on to say, but I just want to object to the notion that it “works”.
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1446 - 2011-10-11 20:16:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Hardly
No. Very really.
It doesn't particularly matter that you can counter them with other things — the best counter up until now has been N+1 SCs, because of their ability to go toe-to-toe with both the tanking and the damage output. This will no longer be the case.
Quote:
Here is a novel idea, introduce a new ship or rework the titan to be Super Cap killers.
It's not novel. It's the same deeply flawed “bigger is better” kind of thinking that has brought us to the necessity of this change. It shouldn't be the titan — it should be the Merlin.



Maybe not the merlin, but perhaps a tier 3 or tier 2 cruiser or BC that functions as a "heavy bomber" and launches citadel torps.

Maybe the black ops battleship could fill this role if we don't want a new ship - but I thought I already heard something like that was being considered.

Argus
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1447 - 2011-10-11 20:17:30 UTC
Princess Cellestia wrote:
Damian Gene wrote:
Ok, well much has been said about this.
First off, I fly subcaps.
Second off, I fly a HIC (Onyx actualy)

So your telling me now, that I can point a titan and all I need to do is orbit with an afterburner running?
With titans not able to DD me AND not able to log off, I can simply wait for a fleet to form and light my cyno?
Even to me, this is kind of bad considering a titan costs at least 70b and my ship costs 250m.
When I was in the North, I remember MM lost more supers to them logging in and getting scanned down, then on the field of battle.

Cracking a DD costs: 25,000,000isk at 50,000 units of iso's x 500isk each. Why not change that to 200,000 units so it costs 100m per crack, make sure their cargo can carry lets say, 3-5 cracks? And yes, they should be able to hit subcaps. This way, I need to have a few friends in order to tackle them.

Supers.
I've wanted a Wyvern for a long time, as I fly Caldari. However, I've noticed that I can ONLY old 20 F and 20FB. If I wanted to carry ANY other drones, I'd have to decide to drop a F or a FB. Already a hard choice, as I'd like to have a full bay of ECM drones.
Now I guess I'll just get a carrier. I can do that with a carrier, 10 fighers, 10 ECM, 10x all other useful drones.
If a Super is carrying fighers, then it will have 20 usable fighers. that's only 2x better then a carrier in DPS... Now those fighers, be they in a carrier OR a super are going to suck MORE?

A fit Chimera costs maybe 1b, whereas a fit Wyvern costs 17b?

We just went back in time, to the amazing days of MoM's. 1.5x the EHP of a carrier, 2x the damage and 17x the cost. At least you didnt cut the EHP that bad, but you still made these ships not worth being entombed in. If you want them to be used, cut their cost down to reflect the shitness that they are going to be.

I dont like blobs, but I believe you hit the Supers pinata with nerf bat a bit hard.

TL;DR
Supers EHP cut: Good
Supers not able to use other drones: Ok...people will deal with it.
Supers not able to carry 20F 20FB: BAD
Logoff timers: Ok (but people will just use DT to their advantage)
Titans not being able to doomsday subcaps: BAD (lowsec, everywhere?)
Titans EHP cut: Good


If you fly a titan and you get tackled by some lone hictor that's just roaming around you deserve to lose said titan. You do not take out supers without support. That's just dumb. As for the not able to carry 20F AND 20FB, well you're going to have to decide what you plan on fighting against. Do you want to kill the Battleships in the support fleet, or do you want to wail on the dreads sieging your pos. You have to make a CHOICE.

Since CCP isn't going to kill fighters as they were previously, I only have 2 complaints. First, Dread tracking, dreads can't hit a damn thing so a damage buff won't matter at all, buff tracking so they can actually hit something besides a pos tower. Also what happened to the buff to SMA size on carriers, is that gone now? Was really looking forward to that.


I would love to see dread tracking buffed, but have you tried getting your target webbed and painted?
Aurora Egnald
Doomheim
#1448 - 2011-10-11 20:18:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Your acting like Super Caps are ruining this game.
…and they are, since we've arrived at a situation where the answer is increasingly “more caps”.

The mere fact that those who are clinging to their SCs right now all spout some form of “so get one yourself” is the ultimate example of why they need to be fixed: because that should never be the answer — the answer should always be to get something completely different that acts as a hard counter for the ship.



Once again more ship envy." I dont like that you have the capabilites that you do and im unwilling to train up for it myself so please CCP come and punish those who have traind for it"


CCP =SC nerf for the poor,low skilled, and envious
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1449 - 2011-10-11 20:19:53 UTC
Damian Gene wrote:
Princess Cellestia wrote:
Damian Gene wrote:
Ok, well much has been said about this.
First off, I fly subcaps.
Second off, I fly a HIC (Onyx actualy)

So your telling me now, that I can point a titan and all I need to do is orbit with an afterburner running?
With titans not able to DD me AND not able to log off, I can simply wait for a fleet to form and light my cyno?
Even to me, this is kind of bad considering a titan costs at least 70b and my ship costs 250m.
When I was in the North, I remember MM lost more supers to them logging in and getting scanned down, then on the field of battle.

Cracking a DD costs: 25,000,000isk at 50,000 units of iso's x 500isk each. Why not change that to 200,000 units so it costs 100m per crack, make sure their cargo can carry lets say, 3-5 cracks? And yes, they should be able to hit subcaps. This way, I need to have a few friends in order to tackle them.

Supers.
I've wanted a Wyvern for a long time, as I fly Caldari. However, I've noticed that I can ONLY old 20 F and 20FB. If I wanted to carry ANY other drones, I'd have to decide to drop a F or a FB. Already a hard choice, as I'd like to have a full bay of ECM drones.
Now I guess I'll just get a carrier. I can do that with a carrier, 10 fighers, 10 ECM, 10x all other useful drones.
If a Super is carrying fighers, then it will have 20 usable fighers. that's only 2x better then a carrier in DPS... Now those fighers, be they in a carrier OR a super are going to suck MORE?

A fit Chimera costs maybe 1b, whereas a fit Wyvern costs 17b?

We just went back in time, to the amazing days of MoM's. 1.5x the EHP of a carrier, 2x the damage and 17x the cost. At least you didnt cut the EHP that bad, but you still made these ships not worth being entombed in. If you want them to be used, cut their cost down to reflect the shitness that they are going to be.

I dont like blobs, but I believe you hit the Supers pinata with nerf bat a bit hard.

TL;DR
Supers EHP cut: Good
Supers not able to use other drones: Ok...people will deal with it.
Supers not able to carry 20F 20FB: BAD
Logoff timers: Ok (but people will just use DT to their advantage)
Titans not being able to doomsday subcaps: BAD (lowsec, everywhere?)
Titans EHP cut: Good


If you fly a titan and you get tackled by some lone hictor that's just roaming around you deserve to lose said titan. You do not take out supers without support. That's just dumb. As for the not able to carry 20F AND 20FB, well you're going to have to decide what you plan on fighting against. Do you want to kill the Battleships in the support fleet, or do you want to wail on the dreads sieging your pos. You have to make a CHOICE.

Since CCP isn't going to kill fighters as they were previously, I only have 2 complaints. First, Dread tracking, dreads can't hit a damn thing so a damage buff won't matter at all, buff tracking so they can actually hit something besides a pos tower. Also what happened to the buff to SMA size on carriers, is that gone now? Was really looking forward to that.


My point was not how a Titan was solo, but titans get bumped out of POS's a LOT.
Titans stage, and while waiting to do something if someone bumps them out, then there hopelessly flying away at crazy speed. One HIC (which, is what i fly) can tackle them and wait for help.
Titans / supers generally do not stage in the same location as subcap fleets, for many reasons, and it could take quite some time to get help there.
Titans should be able to DD subcaps, just make it cost more to do so.
Tell me why a titan is worth 70-90b after this nerf?


Bridge, instakills normal caps, tracking link for loldead enemy non-cap fleet, decent dps against caps when you remember a dd is actually 5k dps alpha arty that always hits for full damage, massive bonus that ships like the erebus provide your fleet, etc.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1450 - 2011-10-11 20:23:38 UTC
Avon wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[I get that cost is not a balancing factor. That's all there is to get.


I have read you post this many times in this thread, but I don't understand the basis of your argument.

Are you saying that ships should not be better just because they are more expensive?
A HAC is better than a cruiser - is that unfair?

It is harder to make and requires more resources, so it costs more - it also requires more skillpoints to fly.

Cost is very much a balancing factor. It is by no means the only factor, but as it reflects rather than dictates the dificulty in obtaining the ship it is sensible to factor it in.

If that wasn't the case there would be no reason to progress from your n00b ship - it would be unfair for someone with more isk than you to pwn you with a Rifter.





If cost is the sole balancing factor, a 75 billion isk nightmare should totally **** a supercarrier or, say, 5 poorly fit ones / 3 well fit ones. or several thousand rifters. or an infinite number of velators.

It does not.

Diminishing returns on investment is how eve works, just because the ship costs 10x as much, it should not be 10x as good. ATM, sc cost 10x what a carrier costs, does 10x dps, has 20x the tank, and is ewar immune. this is far, far more than 10x as good as a carrier.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1451 - 2011-10-11 20:26:38 UTC
I do not even know where to begin, and as a Hel pilot I have a pretty high resistance to tragedy.

Logout timer: this will increase the number of intentionally logged out supers (as counterintuitive as it is). An online supercapital can right now be held on the field by 3 things - dictor bubbles, hic point/bubble, anchored bubble. After this change, a drive-by shooting by an Ibis that gets off 2 shots (one for creating the timer, one for aggressing within that timer), means you have 30 minutes of infinitely-extendable aggression (remember the good old wreck-shooting).
An aggressed supercapital should stay in space for 15 minutes (like now), and after that for as long as it is bubbled or hic-pointed. I'm not going to do the math if a tech 2 velator could actually kill a supercapital within 23 hours, but if it can't, then downtime is the ONLY thing saving the supercap.
This in turn means a move back to a lot more aggression avoidance.

Supercarrier Dronetype change: Why not make Warrior IIs unfittable on battleships so the poor frigates do not get killed? I understand where the urge for this change comes from, but giving subcaps de facto immunity seems a bit much considered the only ships that can tackle them are destroyer/cruiser hulls.
There is little shame losing a super to a well coordinated trap, but the absolutely only business a single planless dictor solo engaging a super has is dying - not being granted possibly infinite amounts of near-invulnerable time to figure out what to do next. 300m3 dronebay for 20 lights and 20 meds (or rep drones) should be considered. Yes there are battleships dying to solo frigates all the time - but they had the option to fit something that helps and did not do it.

Supercarrier Fighterbay Size: given how hard fighters and fighter-bombers are to field-resupply (short of jumping a cargo-rorqual into an ongoing battle lol), how near impossible they are to rep (locktime, indeterminate flightpath), and how easily they die, I see a lot of useless supers 10 minutes into any engagement they are accidentally deployed into in our future. Will they receive more HP / better resistances? Or will there be a supercarrier retcon to capital bombers with 600m ISK bombs that jump in, deploy and (hope to somehow) jump out?

Titan dronebay: Yes, those 375m3 were the one gamebreaking attribute they had. All is well now. Please move along, nothing to see here.

Siege module: since it doesn't really change anything but the time needed for pos-ops, good.

Dreadnought dronebay: I love this change, since with this I do not have to wait another year or two for the "hey look, my sentry drone bumped your dread 500km offgrid" bug to be fixed. The single tackling rifter is going to be annoying though.

SC/Titan HP nerf: if 20% of a Hel were the same as 20% of an Aeon, I could subscribe to this change, but even if the Hel stays as it is, the -20% Aeon would still have twice the EHP. Consequently, this just reads to me as "ALL MINMATAR - BEND OVER NOW." Analog for the Ragnarok.

Not in the blog but needed changes:
Shield recharge: remove it from all capitals. Have capital shields behave like armor. Introduce +Capital Shield HP implant set (no drake/tengu love).

Hel bonus: either bring it inline with the other 3 supercarriers (offensive or defensive bonus), or fix its cap so it can actually use its bonus. +25% rep amount is ueless when you need twice the cap transfer amount of a nyx to not cap out (which gives you +100% rep and moar damage).

Dreadnought tracking: in theory, this would need a buff, but can be kept as is, since there will not be any big capital fights after this patch anyway.

Overall predictions for the proposed changes:
- dreads will still only be used to reinforce towers (not finish), and with the 5min timers they will be harder to catch doing so. they will continue to not be used against anything that can't be one-cycled, since they remain extremely vulnerable to supers and have to, or supers will lose their last remaining role. Having nothing to fend off tacklers on their own does not help either.

- carriers basically same as above. main use emergency logistics and triage-pos-boost, although they may see the odd use for structure grinding if no fight is to be expected. Since they can still launch drones that can effectively fight fighterbombers, they may get fielded in 200+ quantities so they generate enough remote rep to neutralize and finish off any supers on the field.

- supers will largely vanish from the battlefield again, since having a support fleet changed from smart play to required necessity. This implies the total loss of your supers, if you do not have dominance of the subcap fight - at which point you do not really need to deploy supers anymore. Since this is true for both sides, noone will dare to make the first move (depending on their knowledge of game theory).
Main use will be as a strategic deterrent against hostile dread/carrier deployments from within pos shields. Second most common usage will be parked on an inactive account. Highlight of the year might be a structure grind deployment if no hostile is logged in.
Aurora Egnald
Doomheim
#1452 - 2011-10-11 20:27:18 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Oh I think I see now.
There you go again, not knowing anything about supercaps and basic mechanics.


I know plenty about it. I also know that not a single one of your posts that I've seen, would have a benefit to anyone other than low SP toons. This has nothing to do about mechanics at this point as you have yet to state anything about mechanics other than the fact that your upset because of N+1 SC. So if you truly want to talk mechanics, then talk mechanics. Don't keep posting about your misguided opinion that the only logical way to counter super caps is with super caps. Its not.



Exactly. This whole super cap nerf is about ship envy.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1453 - 2011-10-11 20:29:10 UTC
Nabuch Sattva wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Evil Celeste wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
[quote=Tippia]

Thanks for misconstruing my argument.

What I'm saying is, there's no reason to ever promote the purchasing of supercarriers if what you're after is the ability to do DPS with fighters. Why would an alliance spend 20b on a Nyx when it could buy 8-10 Thanatoi instead and come out with 4-5x the offensive capability?

People are throwing down huge sums of money for supercaps because of their fighter-bomber capabilities, as well as their ewar immunity and large tanks, not because they're excellent at killing subcaps (thats what titans are for ATM, lolololol). The EHP nerf will take away a good chunk of their tank, and FB are already useless against subcaps, so I'm not sure why people are complaining so loudly about SCs needing reduced fighter capability.


If people dont care about their anti subcap capability, why are they whining so much about scs losing it?


I don't think anyone is whining about taking away SCs ability to field infinite waves of drones. I think most people agree that it's dumb and pretty imbalanced. What they're whining about is *totally* removing their ability to fend off subcaps. There's no way that you can honestly argue that a supercarrier being able to field a couple of flights of normal drones (just like a Dominix can) is overpowered.

By that logic, it is unfair and unbalanced to allow battleships to have drones. After all, battleship-sized turrets are designed to hit targets that are BC-sized and larger-- obviously allowing them to carry Warrior IIs makes them overpowered because it lets them kill frigates, which is not their "job" in a fleet fight.

...Except that fielding a few light drones *doesn't* make battleships overpowered frigate-death spewers. It gives them a *minimal* capacity to defend themselves against smaller ships that are not their primary targets. It's not unfair in the slightest. Without the ability to carry drones, BS gangs would easily find themselves perma-tackled (if not outright killed) by frigates. I think it stands to reason that Supercarriers should also be allowed some minimal ability to fend off smaller ships, even if that isn't their primary purpose.


^^ Well said. Its just stupid internet spaceship design not to incorporate this DEFENCE mechanizm!


5 m3 seperate drone bay for most scs, 10 m3 for Nyx
kralz
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1454 - 2011-10-11 20:29:25 UTC


Diminishing returns on investment is how eve works, just because the ship costs 10x as much, it should not be 10x as good. ATM, sc cost 10x what a carrier costs, does 10x dps, has 20x the tank, and is ewar immune. this is far, far more than 10x as good as a carrier.
[/quote]


a super only does 10X the dps of a reg carrier when it uses its FB...which cannot hit anything sub cap really at all...so they dont count, and since it has double fighters to a carrier would assume it really only does 2x the damage of a carrier.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1455 - 2011-10-11 20:33:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
I know plenty about it.
…and yet you say that you don't, largely because you don't actually read what people write — or, if you do, you don't think about what people write and assume that they say something other than was actually said.

Kind of like that straw man you just constructed.
Quote:
I also know that not a single one of your posts that I've seen, would have a benefit to anyone other than low SP toons.
So?
Quote:
you have yet to state anything about mechanics other than the fact that your upset because of N+1 SC.
Understandably, since the whole N+1 concept is pretty much the definition of imbalance.
Quote:
Don't keep posting about your misguided opinion that the only logical way to counter super caps is with super caps.
Ok, I'm going to ask you one more time, and after that, I'm going to get pretty mean to you.

Read.
No, really, read.
When you've done that, think.
When you've done that, think.
When you've done that, think.

…I say that three times, because you really need to think things over here.

Only after that, open your mouth/hit the keyboard.

If you had done the above, you would have noticed by now that I do not have the “misguided opinion that the only logical way to counter super caps is with super caps”. That is yet another one of your straw men that comes out of you not reading, thinking about, and understanding what others write. It has already bit you hard by making you pronounce yourself as ignorant about supercaps — you should really try to avoid a repeat of that.

The problem is not that there are other counters — it's that N+1 is the best one, especially once we start to scale the confrontations. Being the cause of said scale only makes the whole thing worse, since that makes it self-generating.


Your going to get pretty mean to me ? Oh boy. Someone on the internet is going to be mean to me.

Tell me this. IF this patch stays as is and launches this winter, how do you envision large scale 0.0 warfare ?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1456 - 2011-10-11 20:33:54 UTC
Aurora Egnald wrote:
Exactly. This whole super cap nerf is about ship envy.


Post with your supercarrier-capable main and then we can talk about ship envy.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Aurora Egnald
Doomheim
#1457 - 2011-10-11 20:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurora Egnald
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Aurora Egnald wrote:
Exactly. This whole super cap nerf is about ship envy.


Post with your supercarrier-capable main and then we can talk about ship envy.



Dont need to , thats why I have an alt.Posting under my alt does not take anyhting from what I have said. This is about the poor and lower skilled pilots unwilling to train up for a SC. Then crying loud enough to ccp to do something about it because they are way to scared to venture out to null without someone holding their hands or locking up the boogyman.
Nabuch Sattva
The Green Cross
The Skeleton Crew
#1458 - 2011-10-11 20:43:25 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
SERIOUSLY LETS PAY ATTENTION REALLY QUICK.


AN 900 MILLION ISK CARRIER CAN LAUNCH 10 WARRIOR 2'S TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A SABER






BUT



AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPER CARRIER CAN'T.


That sounds fair and balanced and normal to everybody here that makes this game?

To be very clear, I do not own a supercarrier, and do not care about them whatsoever, I'm just trying to make sure we're all working with the same amount of sanity.


^^AGREED
kralz
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1459 - 2011-10-11 20:44:15 UTC
awww i wanna be the boogie man...thats why i spent 4 years training for carriers and bought another account :(
hey, whats the cyno?
R0ze
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1460 - 2011-10-11 20:46:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
]The mere fact that those who are clinging to their SCs right now all spout some form of “so get one yourself” is the ultimate example of why they need to be fixed: because that should never be the answer — the answer should always be to get something completely different that acts as a hard counter for the ship.


Goddam .. few posts ago you said that price should be dictated by demand:

Tippia wrote:
Better performance will lead to higher popularity, which leads to higher demand, which drives prices up. So you don't even have to pick the base price all that well for the whole thing to work.


Now you state when the ship has "better performance" one should go with - NO I am not getting that ship I should toally look into something else!

Don't get me wrong - I don't really care if any of the supers get nerfed (I blew my steam off back in 2009 ( http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0911/Anti-Mothership-Nerf-Sig.jpg ) when CCP was thinking of changing that MS will be able to launch drones only if it has some squad-mates in fleet to assign those to) - but at least be consistent in your forum poasting ..