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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Sigras
Conglomo
#901 - 2011-10-11 09:58:08 UTC
Ramman K'arojic wrote:
CCP: Love your intent;
CCP: You will probably fail.

You have provided no insentive for anybody to bring CAP to a fight; unless they bring 1 first; which they have no incentive to do so.

You need to allow someway to permit CAPS and SUB-CAPS to interact. Wether it fighters on Carries only; where they can not easly shoot small fast ships but could kill a BS with a little effort.

Otherwise you will kill the butterfly before it takes off Cool

Does nobody use carriers for what theyre, you know . . . intended for? why does everyone seem to use 750,000,000 isk carriers to do less damage than a 100,000,000 isk battleship?

Carriers are amazing logistics ships and are a force multiplier among subcap ships, so the progression goes like this:

1. subcap fight ensues
2. One side brings in a carrier(s) to rep their subcap fleet
3. The other side counters with dreadnaughts to kill the carrier(s)
4. The first side counters with Supercarriers to kill the dreads.
Relnala
Perkone
Caldari State
#902 - 2011-10-11 09:58:58 UTC
Draahk Chimera wrote:
Relnala wrote:
My only concern is, with gank fit Moros out-DPSing all the SCs... what niche do SCs have again at 7x the cost?

They can't hit subcaps
They can't even carry enough fighters to threaten battleships significantly
They cant hit towers
They have no personal defensive ability

I was looking forward to the SC nerf somewhat, but true to colors, CCP nerfs too much.

TBH, they kinda sound like bait ships.


It's about fitting into a fleet. Guardians is currently extremely useful ships but you wouldn't go to a fleetfight in only guardians would you?



I'm not talking about not bringing support, I'm talking about... exactly what scenario would you say "Hey! Lets deploy supercarriers for that!". I mean.. yeah, sieging a dread might go badly, but you can lose quite a few dreads for the cost of a supercarrier.

Where does the SC fit into the fleet? Okay, it has a little bit of RR if fit as such, and dread-like damage vs capitals and Ihubs.

But you can bring the same deeps cheaper on a dread, and you bring better RR cheaper on a carrier. The only thing it really has going for it is EHP.

But it costs a lot more, and doesnt really bring a lot else to the field.

So it went from swiss army to an oversized screwdriver. Who uses oversized screwdrivers except that once a year oversized screw you find?. :-p
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
#903 - 2011-10-11 10:03:17 UTC
The problem with Super Carriers was never that they where hard to kill, it was that they could single handedly and without a support fleet, wipe the floor with any sub-cap fleet that faced it. The hit point reduction will, as has been stated earlier in the thread, simply create a greater proliferation of Titans. Your re-balance should be focused on forcing Super Capital deployment need a Sub-Capital support fleet to ensure its effectiveness rather than making people less likely to want to commit their mullti-billions investment, should they have them, or purchase a multi-billions investment should they not. Both these will impact on producers which in turn will impact on small gang PvP exacerbating the problems we alrady face in Eve.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#904 - 2011-10-11 10:03:33 UTC
Ramman K'arojic wrote:
CCP: Love your intent;
CCP: You will probably fail.

You have provided no insentive for anybody to bring CAP to a fight; unless they bring 1 first; which they have no incentive to do so.

You need to allow someway to permit CAPS and SUB-CAPS to interact. Wether it fighters on Carries only; where they can not easly shoot small fast ships but could kill a BS with a little effort.

Otherwise you will kill the butterfly before it takes off Cool


Yeah I'm sure that not being able to hotdrop battlecruiser gangs with supers any more will "kill the butterfly". Alas, poor EVE. CCP what were you thinking when you nerfed that all-important playstyle of entire regions being empty of anything but bait-cyno Arazus and Drakes. What will happen to the butterflies now CryCry

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#905 - 2011-10-11 10:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Lyrrashae wrote:


Also ITT:

Whinging nullbear SC pilots who are basing their complaints around the assumptions that all of EVE revolves around them, and sov-warfare, and seriously believing that the rest of us give two fucks.

Keep the tears coming, you poor, deluded, blinkered little princesses:

They keep my HM/Nano-Drake's windscreen looking like new!



Thanks for your valued opinion, those of us who actually are involved with supercaps and sov warfare really appreciate the input of a ****-ship flying, scrublord, untermensch lowsec pirate. YARRRR!

Nullbears, lol. You spend your time in a place that forbids dictor bubbles, where sentry guns keep a watchful eye over you and a pre-aligned battleship one-shotting one of our cyno kestrels and immediately safing up constitutes adventurous pvp. Your posting in this thread is neither warranted nor tolerable, kindly get the **** out.

And, since you brought it up, yes-- EVE does revolve around us. We're the active players who's participation in nullsec makes EVE what it is. If everyone was a risk-averse hi/low-sec denizen content to run missions and engage in petty squabbles and skirmishes in throwaway ships, EVE would be neither interesting nor noteworthy within the industry. Its the powerblocs that throw their weight around that put EVE in the spotlight of the gaming media and create the political atmosphere that makes EVE unique. So excuse us if we ask that CCP listen to us with regard to gameplay tweaks that directly affect us and have no effect on you whatsoever. We're not surprised you give no fucks about these issues. What we are surprised about is that you expect your opinions on them to be taken seriously.
Draahk Chimera
Supervillains
#906 - 2011-10-11 10:04:38 UTC
While changes (nerfs) to the supercapital roster is indeed welcome I do remain of the opinion that the only way to breathe new life into 0.0 warfare is to nerf remote repping. Fleets with 20 or more logistics can be nothing but negative; they promote blobbing and the homogenization of fleets, and is an absolute killer of small-but-elite fleets (such as BURN EDEN). While blobbing is to some extent the product of human nature, in a game enviroment where you cannot break a single enemy without hitting it with 100+ ships blobbing goes from an annoyance to a necessity.

Remote repping needs to be nerfed now in order to facilitate a game where people are free to bring any (useful) ship and aren't forced to train for and use artillery ships. Also with less remote repairs small-but-elite fleets can once again use teamwork and good knowlege of the game to actually hurt or even kill off much larger blobs of inexperienced players.

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Robert Lefcourt
BigPoppaMonkeys
E.B.O.L.A.
#907 - 2011-10-11 10:05:12 UTC
As carriers can't even hit Control Towers because of fighter range, and therefore their use (apart from delivering logistics) is very limited in POS-fights, it would be a good thing, if they could get a bonus to fighter sig resolution. The 1,5-2k damage a carrier can put out, would not hurt the subcaps too much and preserve the ability to occasionally fend off some stragglers...

just my 2 cents...
iwasatoad
The Lost Disciple's
#908 - 2011-10-11 10:06:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
iwasatoad wrote:
Ok this is the final straw i will be renouncing my eve charters and quit playing because ccp is now giving into even the smallest Winer's
The smallest winer's what?
And what does grape farmers have to do with EVE?

Or are you saying that they're giving in to the smallest whiners? Weeell… we'll see if they give in to you or not (and I'm being kind here and assuming that by “smallest” you mean “fewest“ so we don't have to make quips about your size).
Quote:
I can link you over 20 video's of them dying in less than 15 min's so dont even try to say there to hard to kill
Why would you want to provide that kind of proof when you're trying to argue the opposite?




was strictley stating my point that ccp is going to nurf the ship because of someting that does not exist ie a capital getting killed in under 15 min...

as for the whiners off ((( it's not fair theay have more capital's so we cant fight them))) duhh is that not how war's are one like some one els posted why even owne a titan or mom any more theay are usless once this up date hit's aside for taking down a station that theay wont want to show up to take down because a 50 man frig fleet could kill all of em with a few bubbles....


So you can troll all u want and say im wrong but i guess your just one of them that think's eve should become like wow and make the brain power put into battles a thing of the past

just a head's up CCP if this patch does go through you better get ready to nurf abbadon's there next then drake or hurricane then rupture then rifter but i guess that's all part of how u will end eve after all thease years.....

i was right about one thing when i got this game.... you would give into dulling the game down so bad that even a 5 year old kid could understand click here buy this go here in a line and shoot no stratigy needed
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#909 - 2011-10-11 10:06:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Relnala wrote:
Draahk Chimera wrote:
Relnala wrote:
My only concern is, with gank fit Moros out-DPSing all the SCs... what niche do SCs have again at 7x the cost?

They can't hit subcaps
They can't even carry enough fighters to threaten battleships significantly
They cant hit towers
They have no personal defensive ability

I was looking forward to the SC nerf somewhat, but true to colors, CCP nerfs too much.

TBH, they kinda sound like bait ships.


It's about fitting into a fleet. Guardians is currently extremely useful ships but you wouldn't go to a fleetfight in only guardians would you?



I'm not talking about not bringing support, I'm talking about... exactly what scenario would you say "Hey! Lets deploy supercarriers for that!". I mean.. yeah, sieging a dread might go badly, but you can lose quite a few dreads for the cost of a supercarrier.

Where does the SC fit into the fleet? Okay, it has a little bit of RR if fit as such, and dread-like damage vs capitals and Ihubs.

But you can bring the same deeps cheaper on a dread, and you bring better RR cheaper on a carrier. The only thing it really has going for it is EHP.
But it costs a lot more, and doesnt really bring a lot else to the field.

So it went from swiss army to an oversized screwdriver. Who uses oversized screwdrivers except that once a year oversized screw you find?. :-p


And EW immunity. A a larger ship bay. And it does more damage. A LOT more damage even than dreadnaughts. Plus the Remote ECM burst.

But yeah, supers aren't worth flying now, sure, whatever you say buddy. I tell you what, just to help you out, I'll take your "useless" supercarrier - just the hull, no fittings - off your hands for a nice new carrier hull of your choice and 2 bill in cash. Since carriers are better than supercarriers, that's a great deal for you, right?

Send me an EVEmail and I'll arrange the deal tonight, OK?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Relnala
Perkone
Caldari State
#910 - 2011-10-11 10:06:55 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:
The problem with Super Carriers was never that they where hard to kill, it was that they could single handedly and without a support fleet, wipe the floor with any sub-cap fleet that faced it. The hit point reduction will, as has been stated earlier in the thread, simply create a greater proliferation of Titans. Your re-balance should be focused on forcing Super Capital deployment need a Sub-Capital support fleet to ensure its effectiveness rather than making people less likely to want to commit their mullti-billions investment, should they have them, or purchase a multi-billions investment should they not. Both these will impact on producers which in turn will impact on small gang PvP exacerbating the problems we alrady face in Eve.


Umm, I'm pretty sure that subcap fleets kill solo SCs more often than solo SCs kill entire subcap fleets. Unless you're flying 8x officer point wyverns?
Relnala
Perkone
Caldari State
#911 - 2011-10-11 10:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Relnala
Malcanis wrote:
Relnala wrote:
Draahk Chimera wrote:
Relnala wrote:
My only concern is, with gank fit Moros out-DPSing all the SCs... what niche do SCs have again at 7x the cost?

They can't hit subcaps
They can't even carry enough fighters to threaten battleships significantly
They cant hit towers
They have no personal defensive ability

I was looking forward to the SC nerf somewhat, but true to colors, CCP nerfs too much.

TBH, they kinda sound like bait ships.


It's about fitting into a fleet. Guardians is currently extremely useful ships but you wouldn't go to a fleetfight in only guardians would you?



I'm not talking about not bringing support, I'm talking about... exactly what scenario would you say "Hey! Lets deploy supercarriers for that!". I mean.. yeah, sieging a dread might go badly, but you can lose quite a few dreads for the cost of a supercarrier.

Where does the SC fit into the fleet? Okay, it has a little bit of RR if fit as such, and dread-like damage vs capitals and Ihubs.

But you can bring the same deeps cheaper on a dread, and you bring better RR cheaper on a carrier. The only thing it really has going for it is EHP.
But it costs a lot more, and doesnt really bring a lot else to the field.

So it went from swiss army to an oversized screwdriver. Who uses oversized screwdrivers except that once a year oversized screw you find?. :-p


And EW immunity. A a larger ship bay. And it does more damage. A LOT more damage even than dreadnaughts. Plus the Remote ECM burst.

Yeah, supers aren't worth flying now, sure. I tell you what, I'll take your "useless" supercarrier off your hands for a nice new carrier hull of your choice and 2 bill in cash. Since carriers are better that supers, that's a bargain, right?


Have you looked at the new dread damage? Most dreads can put out about what the SC can. Theoretical, of course.

Also, I don't have an SC. Can I still have the carrier + 2bil?
iulixxi
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#912 - 2011-10-11 10:11:46 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
iulixxi wrote:

Where can I get a SC for 10b? Cheapest hull is 16.5b ... mins cost is, indeed, in the vicinity of 10b …
Requirements will have no impact on the ship cost any way … people will still want to buy them.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArVlisPcgSHddGFZRGtwZ3YyT3dSUDB2YmJvQ053a2c&authkey=CKSKi7sL#gid=23

I even build for blues (but not for you, just because).


"[..]mins cost is, indeed, in the vicinity of 10b[...]"
You probably missed this part ... I know the production cost, direct me to a forum link where some one is selling a SC for 10b.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#913 - 2011-10-11 10:12:13 UTC
iwasatoad wrote:
was strictley stating my point that ccp is going to nurf the ship because of someting that does not exist ie a capital getting killed in under 15 min...
So now you're saying that it's really a problem since capitals do not get killed in under 15 minutes… Good thing they're trying to change that then.
Quote:
why even owne a titan or mom any more theay are usless once this up date hit's aside for taking down a station
In other words, they are not not useless, and there are plenty of reasons to own one.
Quote:
So you can troll all u want and say im wrong
I don't have to. You're doing it so nicely yourself.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#914 - 2011-10-11 10:17:34 UTC
Relnala wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Relnala wrote:
Draahk Chimera wrote:
Relnala wrote:
My only concern is, with gank fit Moros out-DPSing all the SCs... what niche do SCs have again at 7x the cost?

They can't hit subcaps
They can't even carry enough fighters to threaten battleships significantly
They cant hit towers
They have no personal defensive ability

I was looking forward to the SC nerf somewhat, but true to colors, CCP nerfs too much.

TBH, they kinda sound like bait ships.


It's about fitting into a fleet. Guardians is currently extremely useful ships but you wouldn't go to a fleetfight in only guardians would you?



I'm not talking about not bringing support, I'm talking about... exactly what scenario would you say "Hey! Lets deploy supercarriers for that!". I mean.. yeah, sieging a dread might go badly, but you can lose quite a few dreads for the cost of a supercarrier.

Where does the SC fit into the fleet? Okay, it has a little bit of RR if fit as such, and dread-like damage vs capitals and Ihubs.

But you can bring the same deeps cheaper on a dread, and you bring better RR cheaper on a carrier. The only thing it really has going for it is EHP.
But it costs a lot more, and doesnt really bring a lot else to the field.

So it went from swiss army to an oversized screwdriver. Who uses oversized screwdrivers except that once a year oversized screw you find?. :-p


And EW immunity. A a larger ship bay. And it does more damage. A LOT more damage even than dreadnaughts. Plus the Remote ECM burst.

Yeah, supers aren't worth flying now, sure. I tell you what, I'll take your "useless" supercarrier off your hands for a nice new carrier hull of your choice and 2 bill in cash. Since carriers are better that supers, that's a bargain, right?


Have you looked at the new dread damage? Most dreads can put out about what the SC can. Theoretical, of course.

Also, I don't have an SC. Can I still have the carrier + 2bil?


Nyx can do 12.5k DPS. Blaster Moros now tops out at about 9k IIRC, and the other dreads rather less. That's a pretty big delta, especially when you take into account the very limited range and tank of the gank-fit dreads, plus the fact that while they're doing that damage they can't move or be repped or capped.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kyjaro
Doomheim
#915 - 2011-10-11 10:23:49 UTC
I can see 2 problems

- Carriers should remain deadly against sub-capitals, so give them a bonus to fighters to counter the penalty. I'm thinking about carriers ratting and the fact that carriers can be killed easily. They shouldn't have the penalty to fighters

- There should be a distinction between logging off and getting disconnected (or server down)
Relnala
Perkone
Caldari State
#916 - 2011-10-11 10:24:59 UTC


Nyx can do 12.5k DPS. Blaster Moros now tops out at about 9k IIRC, and the other dreads rather less. That's a pretty big delta, especially when you take into account the very limited range and tank of the gank-fit dreads, plus the fact that while they're doing that damage they can't move or be repped or capped.[/quote]

3x Damage Mod Moros is about 10k DPS.

Or I guess on your theory, I should use like a 7x faction damage mod fit for numbers, since you're comparing it to a 5x DCU nyx which is about as unlikely... At which point that would be 11,750dps. Lawlz.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#917 - 2011-10-11 10:26:55 UTC
Kyjaro wrote:
I can see 2 problems

- Carriers should remain deadly against sub-capitals, so give them a bonus to fighters to counter the penalty. I'm thinking about carriers ratting and the fact that carriers can be killed easily. They shouldn't have the penalty to fighters


Agreed. Carriers don't need the combat capability nerfed, at least not by that much; they're just not a problem in today's game.

Kyjaro wrote:
- There should be a distinction between logging off and getting disconnected (or server down)


There should be but there isn't, because how can you tell the difference between a genuine disconnect and Timmy T. Titanpilot pulling the cord out of his router because he realised that he dun goofed?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#918 - 2011-10-11 10:27:49 UTC
Kyjaro wrote:
I can see 2 problems

- Carriers should remain deadly against sub-capitals, so give them a bonus to fighters to counter the penalty. I'm thinking about carriers ratting and the fact that carriers can be killed easily. They shouldn't have the penalty to fighters


Or they could just avoid senselessly nerfing fighters in the first place...

Kyjaro wrote:

- There should be a distinction between logging off and getting disconnected (or server down)


People will just yank their network cables if there's an advantage in doing so.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#919 - 2011-10-11 10:29:38 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
iulixxi wrote:

Where can I get a SC for 10b? Cheapest hull is 16.5b ... mins cost is, indeed, in the vicinity of 10b …
Requirements will have no impact on the ship cost any way … people will still want to buy them.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArVlisPcgSHddGFZRGtwZ3YyT3dSUDB2YmJvQ053a2c&authkey=CKSKi7sL#gid=23

I even build for blues (but not for you, just because).



You see that is why goons have one of the largest sc fleet in eve.
Relnala
Perkone
Caldari State
#920 - 2011-10-11 10:29:51 UTC
Anyways, I think the easiest way to fix all this would simply be to make dreads unable to lock targets under 1000m sig radius while sieged, and take the tracking malus off the siege module. And maybe keep the 700% boost. And definitely keep the siege timer. Maybe even make it lower. I think the solution to supercaps is solely through boosting dreads. Not turning supercarriers into them as well.