EVE General Discussion

Except they were talking about your misinterpretation of the thread, not criticizing how you play.

Let's just all settle down. ;)

Well atleast its not me who is so butthurt and start bitching about highsec pvp.



Do you even understand english? He is talking about pvper's flaming each other for doing another form of pvp. Which is pretty much what you are doing, when you are flaming people for doing highsec pvp. And the funny thing is that they dont talk about highsec pvp at all.

that is the truth 8)


if in eve u wanna pvp u have 2 types of targets:
1. the willing - they are stronger than u in skillpoints/fitting/rr repping friends/hotdropping friends/uncloaking friends
2. the unwiling - they are fewer, weaker, or even pve players ranging from traders/haulers to miners to mission runners/plexers

pls realize that "willing" pvpers change to "unwilling" very fast

both choices end in a unsatisfying result (but thats only my opinion)

but hell this is eve, so everyone in this game found something or the other that gives him fun

the problem is people not able to understand other peoples motivations/reasons and reacting like the average dumb joe - fear that they wont aknowledge turns into hatred and these forums are full of it, sadly

i came to eve years ago after seeing some ATourney Vids, craving for pvp like this, i started eve, found it once in a while and a lot of other pvp ways i didnt like, but then i found so much more and even after years i still find interesting new stuff in this game

pvp is only one aspect of the game

@Marconus Orion:

Thanks for asking nicely.

At this moment ( !!!) i personally see no advantage out of PvP for my daily activites in high sec.
It has a little bit to do with my real live attitude, which is similar to: "If you don't disturb my activities, i don't interfere into your activities." (ingame this applies to high sec for me).

If i am - for example - in WH space or low sec, the following equation applies:

The possible profit must be higher or equal to the possible risk/loss.

And this decission is not easy. As a casual player, ships have more value for me opposed too those, wo somehow learned to squeeze Millions of ISK within a short time range out of EVE, or indirect inject real money into it via PLEX sells (which i refuse to do). Therefore it is some kind of "fear" to loose too much to experienced players , for ... what benefit? I must be - let me say - for ~ 70% sure, that there is a chance for me.
Maybe some are tempted to call me a coward, but this does not match the situation. Please see also https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1569658#post1569658 for a similar question about "risk".

If i will be maybe a part of a 0.0-sec-alliance somewhere in the future, then there's something to defence togehter with others --> the above mentioned equation widens. Then a personal loss might be acceptable for the chance of the alliance winning the challenge, which is - in the end - also a benefit for me.


TL;DR:

Back to high sec:
1) I see no profit for me.
2) Gaining joy by making others suffer where they expected "peace" *) (for example by ganking) is no lovely joy for me.

*) yes, i know ... "by undocking, you consent to pvp" ....

Maybe this will change in future, but .. at the moment: that's it.

People bitching about other people avoiding their gatecamps.


If that's PvP in this game, I'll take the AI.

To answer the OPs question:

I do not like "PvP" when it means nothing. I do not fight for fun. I do not dwell in the thought that I have hurt someone.

I do market PvP all the time. But why should I fly to low sec and shoot some random guy there?

And for 0.0: I do not like politics and I don't like doing the same as like 1000 other people. An I hate obeying orders in a GAME!

I would PvP if someone is standing in my way of doing things.
I would PvP if I had to defend myself or my corp.

But I will never PvP just for the sake of it.

For me personally, it is as follows:

1. PvP is hard to find.

I don't mean a gate camp, I don't mean a 10 v 1, I mean PvP where you actually have a snowball's chance of winning. I'll give you an example from FW. Myself and 4 other people are capturing a complex. We're all in T1 frigs/destroyers. Enemy militia begins jumping in, and gathering at the deadspace gate to our complex. As time goes by, there's 10 of them, still they do not engage. A few minutes later, there's 14 of them, and more coming. We capped the complex and were warping out when they started warping in. See what I mean? 3:1 odds, and they still waited. And for us, at that point, it would have been stupid to stick around - we achieved the objective, we had nothing left to fight for there.

As a general rule, from what I saw so far, unless it is a clear win, 95% of people run, and only fight when they can't run. Makes PvP not time-efficient, compared to other MMOs where you can just jump into the game and immediately find people ready and willing to fight you, and you can be PvPing in seconds, or at worst minutes. In EVE, it could be minutes, or hours, or never.

In simplest terms, imagine playing a game of chess where all your pieces are pawns, and all the opponent's pieces are queens. Makes for a very short, very uninteresting and one-sided game. That's EVE's PvP in a nutshell.


2. SP decides the outcome more than player skills.

This is an old saw that many claim is false. I suggest you do an experiment:

Take a brand new character, with 500 SP, and outfit him with Meta 0 T1 mods, which is all a newb can afford, and probably all he can fit with nonexisting fitting skills. Now take a character with 50 million SP, and again give him T2 mods, which he can both easily afford and fit with perfect level V fitting skills.

There will be a huge disparity in DPS, tank, etc. T1 version of a destroyer with T1 guns and low gunnery skills will be 200-ish DPS, same destroyer with T2 overheated guns can pull near 700-ish DPS. And obviously a 500 SP newb char can't overheat his guns.

Now give these two characters to a noob and a vet, and have them fight. Then, reverse places, giving the 500 SP char to a vet, and 50 mil to a newb, and do it again. Repeat 100 times. In the end, it'll be the 50 mil char that will win 90% of engagements, the remaining 10% happening because of human error (newbie failing to activate modules, for example). Yes, the test case is extreme (500 vs 50 mil SP), but if SP doesn't matter, then the disparity magnitude is irrelevant.

We all know this is true, though some to like to pretend that it's not. So why beat around the bush?

In other MMOs, people are usually separated by level or some other tier system, to prevent "high level" players from preying on "low level". Good example being, if you are 10 levels higher or more, you don't benefit from killing the lowbie. People still do it for giggles, so don't come crying to me that this limits your sandbox freedom, but they don't get points in the process which is more or less fair, since it takes little to no effort to win.


3. PvP is inconvenient.

OK, so you've engaged in PvP, and you lost your ship and maybe your pod if it was a competent gate camp. No biggie, it happens. Now you:
1. Appear in some clone station away from the action, and it will take you a long time to jump back into the fight.
2. You have to run logistics, buying a new clone.
3. You have to get into the next ship,
3a. If you don't have a ship ready and outfitted, you have to do even more work before you can get back to fighting
4. Travel back to where the fight was.

Compare that to most other games, where you:
1. Resurrect at the NEAREST pad/point/graveyard, and are combat effective.
2. Travel a very short distance back to the fight, and start fighting again.

The question is, is EVE's added complexity NECESSARY? Does it tax your strength, intelligence, mettle? Or just patience?


4. Ship and Weapon Imbalance

I won't go into details why some ships and some are better/worse than others. Let me just ask you this. Look at the Alliance Tournament and ships they use, See many drone boats there? Any boats with sensor dampening EWAR? Rail boats? Sure, this is not proof-positive of anything, but come on, do you honestly need me to draw it for you in crayon? Some ships are in-sane-ly popular. Other ships you can play for a year and never see flown at all.

If you were stupid/unlucky enough to train for hulls/tank/systems that were unpopular at the time, or became unpopular as you reached them, you were dead in the water. And yes, it's true, eventually everyone cross-trains. But for a new or new-ish player, who just finished a 6-month training stint for something only to find out it doesn't work, looking at another 6 months of cross-training is soul-crushing.

Good example is drone boats. I'm the idiot, and I admit that freely, who trained for drones. On this character, out of 11 million SP more than half of the SP is in drones. But guess what? There are no frigate size drone boats, and there are no destroyer size drone boats. So if my militia is flipping minor plexes, I have to fly turret or missile platforms for which I have no skills.

Though to be fair, most MMOs are like that. In some cases, it's even more glaring. Bright Wizards at Warhammer launch come to mind. The difference is, in most other MMOs you can simply re-roll that class and be at top level and combat-effective and geared in under 3 months. In EVE, nothing is that fast. As a result, if you screw up, or get screwed (by changes), you are set back by a considerable margin.

OK, i might have gone over the top by calling you butthurt. I apologize for that.

But still, you are only talking about highsec pvp - highsec griefing to be more exact. You were pretty offensive when argueing with the guys who were talking about general pvp, which honestly makes you look like someone who is flaming people.

I agree that highsec griefing requires lot of preparation, but thats not what the thread is about. Casual players can easily pvp in RvB without ever leaving highsec.

I know a lot of people that still pay the subscription by buying a plex instead of credit card payments. This leaves very little isk to save up. So no isk no pvp specially if they dont have a ship replacement program and if their play time is limited.
With ship replacement programs at least you can balance it somehow, but without it, its undouable with the above constraits.

Oh well... consensual PVP is possible. I guess I missed where the OP specified this was about consensual high-sec PVP. I thought it was about all high-sec pvp, which is mostly non-consensual.