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Selling characters (account) for real money
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Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2012-07-04 22:42:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Othran wrote:
National laws > EULA. Oracle's EULA says you can't sell software. Court says you can. Oracle lose.

Software developers can put whatever they like in the EULA, it isn't going to make any difference if a court says otherwise in an area they sell the product. CCP quote the laws of Iceland, which is part of the EEA so they have to comply with EU court decisions if they wish to sell products within the EU.

EULAs aren't worth the paper they're written on in anywhere other than the USA, and even there its increasingly dodgy.


In other words, if CCP puts in their EULA that you can murder somebody OOG for killing your internet spaceship shooting internet lasers at internet rocks, that doesn't suddenly make murder legal.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#82 - 2012-07-09 21:09:56 UTC  |  Edited by: BoBoZoBo
Hannott Thanos wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:
One has nothing to do with the other. Apples and Steaks.

I strongly disagree. Read my above post


Your agreement on the subject is irrelevant.
Law is law and does not need you to "feel" any particular way for it to be the way it is.

The EU decision deals with software which is PURCHASED (not LEASED) and your right to resell the licence, in the U.S. it is called the First Sale doctrine. And it does not apply to services you pay a monthly fee for or the rights to the client, only the physical copy of the item in question.

You are not purchasing the EVE client itself, the account or the data that supports it. You are LICENSING it, and are paying a monthly fee under this agreement for the privilege or accessing the server and all the data contained within it.

If you are "entitled" to anything, it's the COPY of the installer (which really went to setup costs) which you are still free to resell if you can). Have fun with that.

When players "sell" their accounts (legally) here, they are doing so under the rules established by the IP holder, CCP. And even then, they are selling the rights to use the account, not the account itself. CCP still owns that.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Leeluvv
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-07-09 21:21:46 UTC
My take on this using the hire car analogy again, feel free to correct as necessary:

If you buy a car out right, the seller cannot impose limitations on how or when you sell the car. <- Oracle
If you rent a car, you don't own it, so can't sell it. <- CCP
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#84 - 2012-07-09 21:53:20 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Not sure about stuff above but after few years of paying for this chars when im done with em this baby and other are going to e-bay.

Smile
Good luck with that.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#85 - 2012-07-10 00:29:07 UTC
I vote for a member of CCP to post their opinion on this subject. I thought you couldn't sell your accounts for cash, and yet some people not only suggest that this does happen, but also quite regulary. I'd be interested in seeing the official opinion on that.

And more importantly, how much do accounts sell for? Roll

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-07-10 00:47:22 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
I vote for a member of CCP to post their opinion on this subject. I thought you couldn't sell your accounts for cash, and yet some people not only suggest that this does happen, but also quite regulary. I'd be interested in seeing the official opinion on that.

And more importantly, how much do accounts sell for? Roll


It's against the EULA to sell an account, but people do it anyway. Getting caught means the account is permabanned. Buying accounts also has the significant risk of the seller deciding he/she wants it back & there's nothing you can do to stop them. You also have no legal recourse, as intangible goods aren't supported by most middleman entities (Paypal for example).

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#87 - 2012-07-10 00:47:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Eve software is not free and is payed for monthly via 30 day subs aka plex and yes the new law does give you legal power to sell them. Since this law has passed I have now put all my chars isk into buying eve online subscriptions via ISK in game and removing the plex and turning into ''30 day eve subscriptions'' as the EU now protects my right to sell these for cash. I do hope CCP and eve survive this transition.

It must be stressed that if CCP fails to acknowledge that users are now legally able to sell subscriptions and licences or just simply lives in denial then 100% this will be the end of CCP and eve online under its current operators and trading practices.


CCP get your sh!t together and prepare yourself for subscription and licence trading or be fined into oblivian by the EU for refusing to allow us to trade subs which is now a legal right.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#88 - 2012-07-10 01:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
I've always wondered if CCP was trading in PLEX I guess we are about to find out. Plex is now worth <500M isk or 15 dollars real money. I expect to see plex rocket in ISK value as players look forward to trading it for real dollars on such sites as ebay knowing that the EU has made this practise 100% legal. Any effort from CCP to ban accounts will be seen as an effort to thwart this new legal right to softwae licence, subscription ownership and the right to sell.

It's not just CCP that is in this very dangerous bind, sites such as steam are in for a long ride too. On that note steam has actually bought back several of my games after refusing to allow me to trade them.


CCP I hope you are ready as EVE is a good game.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#89 - 2012-07-10 01:08:52 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Eve software is not free and is payed for monthly via 30 day subs aka plex and yes the new law does give you legal power to sell them. Since this law has passed I have now put all my chars isk into buying eve online subscriptions via ISK in game and removing the plex and turning into ''30 day eve subscriptions'' as the EU now protects my right to sell these for cash. I do hope CCP and eve survive this transition.

It must be stressed that if CCP fails to acknowledge that users are now legally able to sell subscriptions and licences or just simply lives in denial then 100% this will be the end of CCP and eve online under its current operators and trading practices.


CCP get your sh!t together and prepare yourself for subscription and licence trading or be fined into oblivian by the EU for refusing to allow us to trade subs which is now a legal right.

Wrong. I downloaded the EVE client before I payed a penny.

EVE's software is free.


The subscription only allows you to rent server resources.


Also, enjoy your ban.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#90 - 2012-07-10 01:10:35 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I've always wondered if CCP was trading in PLEX I guess we are about to find out. Plex is now worth <500M isk or 15 dollars real money. I expect to see plex rocket in ISK value as players look forward to trading it for real dollars on such sites as ebay knowing that the EU has made this practise 100% legal. Any effort from CCP to ban accounts will be seen as an effort to thwart this new legal right to softwae licence, subscription ownership and the right to sell.

It's not just CCP that is in this very dangerous bind, sites such as steam are in for a long ride too. On that note steam has actually bought back several of my games after refusing to allow me to trade them.


CCP I hope you are ready as EVE is a good game.

Wrong. The EU ruling only effects software that you pay for. Find me a single piece of software from CCP that you must pay for.

I'll help you out. You can't. Its free.


You pay to use their server. Its renting, not buying. The EU ruling does not cover this.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-07-10 01:15:00 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I've always wondered if CCP was trading in PLEX I guess we are about to find out. Plex is now worth <500M isk or 15 dollars real money. I expect to see plex rocket in ISK value as players look forward to trading it for real dollars on such sites as ebay knowing that the EU has made this practise 100% legal. Any effort from CCP to ban accounts will be seen as an effort to thwart this new legal right to softwae licence, subscription ownership and the right to sell.

It's not just CCP that is in this very dangerous bind, sites such as steam are in for a long ride too. On that note steam has actually bought back several of my games after refusing to allow me to trade them.


CCP I hope you are ready as EVE is a good game.

Wrong. The EU ruling only effects software that you pay for. Find me a single piece of software from CCP that you must pay for.

I'll help you out. You can't. Its free.


You pay to use their server. Its renting, not buying. The EU ruling does not cover this.


Not to mention that Iceland isn't a part of the European Union & as such, isn't affected by this at all.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#92 - 2012-07-10 01:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Corina Jarr wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I've always wondered if CCP was trading in PLEX I guess we are about to find out. Plex is now worth <500M isk or 15 dollars real money. I expect to see plex rocket in ISK value as players look forward to trading it for real dollars on such sites as ebay knowing that the EU has made this practise 100% legal. Any effort from CCP to ban accounts will be seen as an effort to thwart this new legal right to softwae licence, subscription ownership and the right to sell.

It's not just CCP that is in this very dangerous bind, sites such as steam are in for a long ride too. On that note steam has actually bought back several of my games after refusing to allow me to trade them.


CCP I hope you are ready as EVE is a good game.

Wrong. The EU ruling only effects software that you pay for. Find me a single piece of software from CCP that you must pay for.

I'll help you out. You can't. Its free.


You pay to use their server. Its renting, not buying. The EU ruling does not cover this.


I downloaded microsoft 7 before I paid for it? Your Point?

I downloaded my CAD and CAM software before I paid for it your point?

I downloaded my anti virus software and run it for 14 days before paying for it, your point?

I downloaded and played eve for 14 days before I paid for it your point?

I have several 30 day eve licences and I won't be banned as I have not sold them yet. Although the EU law says I am 100% allowed to sell my licence I will wait for CCP clarification on my right to sell. If they decide to flout EU law I will open a complaint.

I however think CCP will be smart acknowledge the new law and adept and survive even if this means a complete overhaul of the EVE ecconemny.

CCP has adepted to the republic of china's regulations with eve serenity, eve tranqulity will be no different adapting to the EU's laws.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#93 - 2012-07-10 01:17:57 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I've always wondered if CCP was trading in PLEX I guess we are about to find out. Plex is now worth <500M isk or 15 dollars real money. I expect to see plex rocket in ISK value as players look forward to trading it for real dollars on such sites as ebay knowing that the EU has made this practise 100% legal. Any effort from CCP to ban accounts will be seen as an effort to thwart this new legal right to softwae licence, subscription ownership and the right to sell.

It's not just CCP that is in this very dangerous bind, sites such as steam are in for a long ride too. On that note steam has actually bought back several of my games after refusing to allow me to trade them.


CCP I hope you are ready as EVE is a good game.

Wrong. The EU ruling only effects software that you pay for. Find me a single piece of software from CCP that you must pay for.

I'll help you out. You can't. Its free.


You pay to use their server. Its renting, not buying. The EU ruling does not cover this.


Not to mention that Iceland isn't a part of the European Union & as such, isn't affected by this at all.


because the server is in iceland and CCP is not a EU registered company? Denial cool that'll see CCP through. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#94 - 2012-07-10 01:19:47 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I've always wondered if CCP was trading in PLEX I guess we are about to find out. Plex is now worth <500M isk or 15 dollars real money. I expect to see plex rocket in ISK value as players look forward to trading it for real dollars on such sites as ebay knowing that the EU has made this practise 100% legal. Any effort from CCP to ban accounts will be seen as an effort to thwart this new legal right to softwae licence, subscription ownership and the right to sell.

It's not just CCP that is in this very dangerous bind, sites such as steam are in for a long ride too. On that note steam has actually bought back several of my games after refusing to allow me to trade them.


CCP I hope you are ready as EVE is a good game.

Wrong. The EU ruling only effects software that you pay for. Find me a single piece of software from CCP that you must pay for.

I'll help you out. You can't. Its free.


You pay to use their server. Its renting, not buying. The EU ruling does not cover this.


I downloaded microsoft 7 before I paid for it? Your Point?

I downloaded my CAD and CAM software before I paid for it your point?

I downloaded my anti virus software and run it for 14 days before paying for it, your point?

I downloaded and played eve for 14 days before I paid for it your point?

I have several 30 day eve licences and I won't be banned as I have not sold them yet. Although the EU law says I am 100% allowed to sell my licence I will wait for CCP clarification on my right to sell. If they decide to flout EU law I will open a complaint.

I however think CCP will be smart acknowledge the new law and adept and survive even if this means a complete overhaul of the EVE ecconemny or complete relocation of CCP and eve online outside the EU.

CCP has adept to the republic of china's regulations with eve serenity, eve tranqulity will be no different.

1) trials don't count. Once the trial ends, the software is no longer fully functioning.

2) I doubt you downloaded W7 and it worked fully featured without paying for it... unless you did so illegally

3) the EVE client works 100% upon download. You can receive updates, set settings, and enter the user information. What you need to pay for is the ability to use the EVE server which is separate from the client. You never pay for the EVE software. You pay to access the server.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-07-10 01:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I've always wondered if CCP was trading in PLEX I guess we are about to find out. Plex is now worth <500M isk or 15 dollars real money. I expect to see plex rocket in ISK value as players look forward to trading it for real dollars on such sites as ebay knowing that the EU has made this practise 100% legal. Any effort from CCP to ban accounts will be seen as an effort to thwart this new legal right to softwae licence, subscription ownership and the right to sell.

It's not just CCP that is in this very dangerous bind, sites such as steam are in for a long ride too. On that note steam has actually bought back several of my games after refusing to allow me to trade them.


CCP I hope you are ready as EVE is a good game.

Wrong. The EU ruling only effects software that you pay for. Find me a single piece of software from CCP that you must pay for.

I'll help you out. You can't. Its free.


You pay to use their server. Its renting, not buying. The EU ruling does not cover this.


Not to mention that Iceland isn't a part of the European Union & as such, isn't affected by this at all.


because the server is in iceland and CCP is not a EU registered company? Denial cool that'll see CCP through. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.


The servers themselves, I believe, are actually in the UK. This doesn't change the fact that the software is free & you're paying a monthly fee to rent an account & access the servers. The characters, accounts & everything on them still belongs to CCP & is not a software licence. As this law only covers purchased software licences, you can't legally sell the accounts, characters or items. You could try & sell the software but considering is free, good luck with that.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#96 - 2012-07-10 01:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Corina Jarr wrote:

1) trials don't count. Once the trial ends, the software is no longer fully functioning.

2) I doubt you downloaded W7 and it worked fully featured without paying for it... unless you did so illegally

3) the EVE client works 100% upon download. You can receive updates, set settings, and enter the user information. What you need to pay for is the ability to use the EVE server which is separate from the client. You never pay for the EVE software. You pay to access the server.


''The court also ruled that any patches, upgrades or server access made to the software through a service agreement also form part of the used software that can be sold on.''

Next point please, server access is a right via the licence, my 30 day licences allow me access to their servers.

Don't get me wrong I support eve and I hope CCP make the right choices here because if they do not the results may be terminal or at least very costly.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#97 - 2012-07-10 01:29:56 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:

1) trials don't count. Once the trial ends, the software is no longer fully functioning.

2) I doubt you downloaded W7 and it worked fully featured without paying for it... unless you did so illegally

3) the EVE client works 100% upon download. You can receive updates, set settings, and enter the user information. What you need to pay for is the ability to use the EVE server which is separate from the client. You never pay for the EVE software. You pay to access the server.


''The court also ruled that any patches, upgrades or server access made to the software through a service agreement also form part of the used software that can be sold on.

Next point please, server access is a right via the licence, my 30 day licences allow me access to their servers.

Don't get me wrong I support eve and I hope CCP make the right choices here because if they do not the results may be terminal or at least very costly.

Doesn't apply.


That ruling only applies if you pay for the software. Server access (such as to the Online MP of ME3) is a right in that you own the game ME3, therefore if you sell ME3 to someone, Oracle/EA must allow them to use the multiplayer.

Server access is not a right with EVE as we do not own the licence to the server.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-07-10 01:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:

1) trials don't count. Once the trial ends, the software is no longer fully functioning.

2) I doubt you downloaded W7 and it worked fully featured without paying for it... unless you did so illegally

3) the EVE client works 100% upon download. You can receive updates, set settings, and enter the user information. What you need to pay for is the ability to use the EVE server which is separate from the client. You never pay for the EVE software. You pay to access the server.


''The court also ruled that any patches, upgrades or server access made to the software through a service agreement also form part of the used software that can be sold on.

Next point please, server access is a right via the licence, my 30 day licences allow me access to their servers.


It's a privilege, not a right. The software licence covers exactly that, the software. The 30-day PLEX is not a software licence, it's an ingame item which is owned by CCP.

Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Don't get me wrong I support eve and I hope CCP make the right choices here because if they do not the results may be terminal or at least very costly.


Yes, because supporting a company entails that you make false complaints when they won't let you sell their ingame items for real money.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-07-10 02:15:45 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
If they decide to flout EU law I will open a complaint.

And I will open a large box of popcorn.

LOL

You are going to get destroyed.
Gun Gal
Dark Club
#100 - 2012-07-10 02:21:19 UTC
Showed my brother, who is actually a copyright Lawyer this thread.

His response?
" thought you said eve isn't full if idiots "

True story