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New dev blog: The FW Exploit 2012 (or: How I learned about FOREX)

First post
Author
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#321 - 2012-06-30 13:40:01 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Spc One wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it.

Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits.
Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap.


This valuable feedback will be noted.



lmao!!!! i love ccp...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#322 - 2012-06-30 13:42:40 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.

The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."

It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen."
Yeah Good deterant that one.

I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch.


hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps

I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game


yeah but you cant ban this guy!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Hoarr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#323 - 2012-06-30 14:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Hoarr
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Spc One wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it.

Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits.
Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap.


This valuable feedback will be noted.




Hahahahaha. Exasperated Sreegs best Sreegs
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#324 - 2012-06-30 18:26:48 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.


I missed this the first time through.

The reason this was so grey to us it, the last time this very scenerio happened, for months on end, with CCP's full knowlege, you allowed all the profits to stand. Insurance fraud did exactly this, except worse as it printed ISK itself, not LP. You broke your spacelamp and got back more ISK than you paid. People blew up thousands of ships each and raked in fortunes. To us, this was no different. I know you guys don't agree, but that is where we are coming from. There was precedent.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance
Apocalypse Now.
#325 - 2012-06-30 19:23:24 UTC
Aryth wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.


I missed this the first time through.

The reason this was so grey to us it, the last time this very scenerio happened, for months on end, with CCP's full knowlege, you allowed all the profits to stand. Insurance fraud did exactly this, except worse as it printed ISK itself, not LP. You broke your spacelamp and got back more ISK than you paid. People blew up thousands of ships each and raked in fortunes. To us, this was no different. I know you guys don't agree, but that is where we are coming from. There was precedent.


Here are some key differences I see: your plan was implemented at full strength shortly after a new mechanic change (as opposed to an old mechanic slowly becoming a problem), was a lot more sophisticated, required a great deal more high level manipulation on several fronts, was not common knowledge, and only a few players had an opportunity to profit from it. In terms of 'printing isk' from nowhere, I agree the insurance fraud was way worse.

* bolded is easiest to 'correct' via punishments, but maybe w/ PLEX you'll end up liking said punishments.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2012-06-30 19:44:46 UTC
I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.

But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.

So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service?
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#327 - 2012-06-30 20:27:57 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.

But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.

So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service?

Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it.


Pretty small pennies for countering inflation when new isk injected into the game is grossing on the order of 40-50T monthly though (note that that's just the faucets, I don't have as good a handle on the sinks)

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance
Apocalypse Now.
#328 - 2012-06-30 20:38:27 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.

But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.

So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service?

Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it.


Pretty small pennies for countering inflation when new isk injected into the game is grossing on the order of 40-50T monthly though (note that that's just the faucets, I don't have as good a handle on the sinks)


You could change all the isk sinks to 0.0 and probably not increase the amount of net isk injection by more than 20%. I really wonder what is holding back hyper inflation instead of the relatively mild inflation we have now. Eve simple isn't expanding its player base and net ingame assets by a rate necessary to keep up with all the new isk.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#329 - 2012-06-30 21:21:32 UTC
Part of it, I think, is that the only thing that necessarily scales in cost with inflation is gametime in the form of plexes. Raw materials themselves tend to be driven by straight up supply & demand, and manufactured goods have their prices track raw materials relatively closely thanks to race to the bottom effects - anyone can build anything, provided they have the proper skills, so the price is dictated by those who will build for the lowest profits. Inflation, therefore, never really enters the equation.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2012-06-30 21:40:51 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I'm new to this game but i have a fair grasp of economics.

But all i see here is goons accumulating much of the ingame currency, having it seized before being able to use it (by reporting it) and therefore alleviating a lot of the natural inflation that comes with the age of the game.

So really didnt the goons just do the whole game a great service?

Inflation would come from new currency being injected into the game, which never happened during this whole thing - quite the opposite, since redeeming LP costs isk. We'd already taken large amounts of isk out of circulation and would have taken something like 2T more between Aryth & I alone had we kept it.


Pretty small pennies for countering inflation when new isk injected into the game is grossing on the order of 40-50T monthly though (note that that's just the faucets, I don't have as good a handle on the sinks)


You misunderstood me.

Inflation is a natural part of any mmo, more people join more people make money, smalle exploits here and there that aren't caught in time ETC.

If i understand correctly: what the goons did with this is siphon off HUGE amounts of existing ISK from players (ISK did not come from nowhere) and it is now locked up and the LP is also frozen/removed.

But if what you say is correct that 40-50T ISK is created every month, I guess it didn't have that much of an effect.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#331 - 2012-06-30 22:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
Im just going to leave this here,

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664


Can i get my free plex now?

edit : Ill take some fleet issue ships instead,

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Helena Russell Makanen
DRRUSSEL
#332 - 2012-07-01 02:04:47 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:


hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps

I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game



So goons take advantage of an exploit, profit from it, then their accounts are left in good standing and even plex awarded, because they at some point sent that information to ccp.

I may be wrong, but didn't you ban the guy (non-goon) who did the same thing when he exposed an exploit with the first opening of these new forums - where no one paid attention to his warnings until he exploited it as proof? I can't remember if it was a lifetime ban, but I know he was banned, and without making a cent.

How is this case so very different?

"If a miner needs to go to the bathroom, for instance, I ask that they dock up first, or at the very least ask the Supreme Protector for permission to go."  -  James 315 - aka - the miner bumper

Chicken Pizza
One-man Armada
#333 - 2012-07-01 02:18:49 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.

Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster?


You could just, ya know, play the game the way it was intended to be played. The fact that boundaries can even be a topic is rather sad.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#334 - 2012-07-01 03:39:57 UTC
Two weeks to report the exploit. The only reason they fessed up is because CCP knew something was going on and changed things on them mid-stream. The monetary penalty is a slap on the hand. What joke. At a minimum a 30 day ban should have been handed out.

That Goons continue to get preferential treatment is obvious.

Weak, CCP. Weak.
Pipa Porto
#335 - 2012-07-01 03:44:43 UTC
Chicken Pizza wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.

Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster?


You could just, ya know, play the game the way it was intended to be played. The fact that boundaries can even be a topic is rather sad.


Gonna quit using Local as an Intel tool?

Gonna quit Jetcan mining?

CCP didn't intend for either of those when they introduced the mechanics, they're something that emerged from the game mechanics when people played with them.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#336 - 2012-07-01 04:00:56 UTC
posting in a goon/dev pet thread they get along so well
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#337 - 2012-07-01 04:30:20 UTC
Still can't believe they introduced a system that rewarded you for killing other players in a game that's 70% alts.
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#338 - 2012-07-01 04:49:05 UTC
Spc One wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it.

Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits.
Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap.


Gosh, maybe you should be a dev. I bet you would have every problem in the game fixed in two weeks flat. Roll

John Hancock

Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#339 - 2012-07-01 07:09:14 UTC
This has been 18 pages of pure entertainment. I had to refill my popcorn bowl twice.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"

Pipa Porto
#340 - 2012-07-01 07:23:54 UTC
Russell Casey wrote:
Still can't believe they introduced a system that rewarded you for killing other players in a game that's 70% alts.


But they weren't expecting collusion between those alts. I mean, who would?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto