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New dev blog: The FW Exploit 2012 (or: How I learned about FOREX)

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Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#281 - 2012-06-29 17:04:25 UTC
Ethilia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Ethilia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The line is here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDbfCbQnH8

Hey CCP, can I have some complementary fanfest tickets for next year? A little love for the 5T that coulda been.


Out of curiosity, how many PLEX did they give you guys (or just you?) for finding / reporting this whole deal?


None so far. We haven't gotten our capital back yet either. Waiting with baited breath on this so we can get busy on the next zany endevour. aka, Delve

Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.


I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets)

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Alikchi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2012-06-29 17:27:37 UTC
Vokanic wrote:

in the words of goons.. you mad bro?


If someone in GoonWaffe actually unironically used that phrase we'd probably shame him out of the alliance.
Chicken W1ng
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#283 - 2012-06-29 18:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Chicken W1ng
Vokanic wrote:
Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:
bla



since when did 5 people = lots?

in the words of goons.. you mad bro?
(in case you cant tell, I'm mocking you for being .. shall we say.. not the 1%?)


And you are what? 1%? Rather one of the 105% of buttlickers that are around (given that some probably post with multiple accounts).
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance
#284 - 2012-06-29 18:17:35 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Ethilia wrote:

Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.


I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets)


Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#285 - 2012-06-29 18:26:49 UTC
Ethilia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Ethilia wrote:

Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.


I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets)


Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.

a technetium moon is 12.6b a month in profit

do the math

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#286 - 2012-06-29 18:29:04 UTC
Ethilia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Ethilia wrote:

Usually, hostile take overs by banks are done with $$$ and lawyers and not guns. Are you suggesting there will be a significant financial assault on Delve residents? If so I'd love to see a detailed post on how it was done and what impact it had.


I run the ship supply program for GSF. I often use my personal ISK to backstop the program and to perform hostile market activities. Pretty standard stuff in bloc level warfare I would think. At least from our point of view. Just isn't talked about cause it's only a handful of players doing it. (with a lot of assets)


Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.


It's more complicated than that. It also varies from alliance to alliance. But in GENERAL.

Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want.

SOV Structures/Fuel/POS's are also funded through alliance income.

Where it gets cloudy is the ancillary costs to war. Total war in EVE requires a great deal more than just #'s.

Example: Stocking the market in the front line stager. This is pretty much always done purely through private ISK. While some standardized fits may be stocked on contracts (we do this) and some is also private ISK, there are a great many more modules and hulls stocked on the market in addition to this. This is where private ISK comes in.

The other side of this coin is hostile manipulation. This also is purely private ISK, generally this means attacking the hostile staging market. Relisting critical modules for hilarious markup etc. This can also (and does in my case) extend to Jita. I may actively move major Jita markets as a part of war activity. Supply shortages are often artificial and caused by vast sums of private ISK.

Private ISK also is typically leveraged for super capital production. Supercap yards are hilariously expensive and this requires hundreds of billions of private capital.

So think of it sorta like a tight ball of alliance ISK, surrounded by a huge cloud of private wealth when alliances go to war. Everyone plays this on a slightly different level. I would say we do it better than anyone.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#287 - 2012-06-29 18:33:21 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Stocking our war markets is largely done by private players, for a profit. Aryth will tend to backstop war critical items with either his own personal money or alliance money, though, so as to prevent excessive price gouging. We're fine with goons war profiteering, it's when they get piggish on vital equipment that things get ugly (for them).

And then as aryth noted, there are things like capital and supercapital construction as well, which is also privately run. The biggest reason for this, really, is that its a truckload of work and no one would want to do it for free. Blink

Really though, one thing that a lot of people don't realize is that goonfleet has quite a lot of j...err, market interested individuals, and they probably get as much credit for our overall success as any other factors. Pilots being able to restock locally off the market is a huge deal.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#288 - 2012-06-29 19:17:03 UTC
Yeah, VFK (the GOON CAPITAL) is the 6th largest market hub in the game, and the top nullsec market hub

That has a lot to do with how we are able to do the things we do

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Hoarr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#289 - 2012-06-29 19:30:05 UTC
Chicken W1ng wrote:
Rather one of the 105% of buttlickers that are around (given that some probably post with multiple accounts).




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Butt lickers. SERIOUSLY? Kindergarten Comebacks FTW!

On a different note, congrats to Aryth and crew. This has been a hugely entertaining saga, and suff like this is one of the reasons why we all play EvE. This will only get more entertaining when CCP gives Jade Constantine 10 plex for reporting Aryth's twitter leak.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#290 - 2012-06-29 19:48:47 UTC
Hoarr wrote:
Chicken W1ng wrote:
Rather one of the 105% of buttlickers that are around (given that some probably post with multiple accounts).




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Butt lickers. SERIOUSLY? Kindergarten Comebacks FTW!

On a different note, congrats to Aryth and crew. This has been a hugely entertaining saga, and suff like this is one of the reasons why we all play EvE. This will only get more entertaining when CCP gives Jade Constantine 10 plex for reporting Aryth's twitter leak.


We made Jade 8b. He got paid already.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#291 - 2012-06-29 19:53:30 UTC
That's three times that Jade's name has been invoked now, shouldn't he be here by now?

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Alain Kinsella
#292 - 2012-06-29 20:01:52 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

That graph was generated as part of the investigation.


Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE?

Well, why not? Blink


I can't speak for CCP, but that is what, but that's what the interior of the Goonwaffe Economic Cabal looks like.


I'd like to mention that its far easier these days to have monitoring tools collect and graph data points on a regular basis (such as Nagios/Icinga + PnP4Nagios - loving these two right now).

At Fanfest, it was mentioned that CCP is using the daily DB snapshot for its metrics, which will work, but is obviously time delayed. Do you have any plans to consider more active snapshots (say 4-6/day) or preparing queries that you can turn on for one day (similar to a network sniffer) to drill down better?

[Monitoring is one of my core responsibilities at work, so I admit all the new graphs I have access to through Icinga has made me like a kid in a candy store. Lol ]

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).
Kayrl Bheskagor
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#293 - 2012-06-29 20:07:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Stensson
Vokanic wrote:
Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:
So, to get this straight, they exploited a huge hole created by CCP, they did this for 2 weeks, them and lots of their little buddies profited from this, not to mention the trickle down effect that affected positively and negatively many other players and the whole market in general, and instead of a ban, which is what the EULA says (CCP really needs to read it sometime), you're actually going to "award" Them multiple PLEX for exploiting the game? Wow. ------- Cut by ISD Stensson ------- CCP seems determined to make 2012 more of an epic fail than last year, and the players numbers still haven't rebounded from last year. Well done. Another lost opportunity to show the player base that you know what you're doing, but all it really did was make CCP, what, 0 for 5 on major issues so far this year?



since when did 5 people = lots?

in the words of goons.. you mad bro?
(in case you cant tell, I'm mocking you for being .. shall we say.. not the 1%?)


So, you're a little goon puppet too, or you actually think that ONLY 5 people were involved with it and benefited from the exploit, not to mention everyone else that took advantage of the exploit over the TWO WEEKS? In the words of people that can think on their own (aka NOT the goons) . . . you THINK, bro??

and no, I'm not mad that I am not a cheat. I'm an adult.

Edit: Quote is edited to reflect original post changes - ISD Stensson
Zendi Marr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#294 - 2012-06-29 20:33:24 UTC
I read they made, in game time, equivalent to 170.000 USD. That is quite an exploit.
Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putain
Remanaquie Federation
#295 - 2012-06-29 22:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vladimir Pulin
Seems to me CCP is just trying to brush this one under the carpet instead of accepting the fact they messed up big time and they're the only ones at fault. This is no different from the older insurance payouts which so many people abused of until it got changed. But classifying it as an exploit only shows a complete detachment either from reality or the English language. By their own admission:

CCP Sreegs wrote:
This can be compared to foreign exchange manipulation.


Now we have all heard of this before, sure. And it's called this for a reason. Ever heard anyone calling it foreign exhange exploit? Let the sandbox play itself out, small government yea!
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance
#296 - 2012-06-29 22:49:36 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Ethilia wrote:

Maybe this is common knowledge, but it seems a lot of bloc warfare is funded by a small # of very rich players. Can you give a guesstimate on bloc funding breakdown by 1. isk from alliance activities (Technetium mining, taxes, etc.) 2. Player activities (ratting, mining, etc.) and 3. Rich player activities (CEO/Director 'salary/bonuses', stupid scale investments - 250b+, etc.). I'd be very interested in even a hand wavey guesstimate on what % of bloc activity costs (sov, super caps, ship replacement, whatever) are funded by each.


It's more complicated than that. It also varies from alliance to alliance. But in GENERAL.

Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want.

SOV Structures/Fuel/POS's are also funded through alliance income.

Where it gets cloudy is the ancillary costs to war. Total war in EVE requires a great deal more than just #'s.

Example: Stocking the market in the front line stager. This is pretty much always done purely through private ISK. While some standardized fits may be stocked on contracts (we do this) and some is also private ISK, there are a great many more modules and hulls stocked on the market in addition to this. This is where private ISK comes in.

The other side of this coin is hostile manipulation. This also is purely private ISK, generally this means attacking the hostile staging market. Relisting critical modules for hilarious markup etc. This can also (and does in my case) extend to Jita. I may actively move major Jita markets as a part of war activity. Supply shortages are often artificial and caused by vast sums of private ISK.

Private ISK also is typically leveraged for super capital production. Supercap yards are hilariously expensive and this requires hundreds of billions of private capital.

So think of it sorta like a tight ball of alliance ISK, surrounded by a huge cloud of private wealth when alliances go to war. Everyone plays this on a slightly different level. I would say we do it better than anyone.


So in summary Eve's economy really is at the mercy of a plutocracy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy ). Goons tight ball of alliance isk is stupidly huge I'm sure and if private Goonie wealth dwarfs that.... At least Goons spend on their members. Somehow, I doubt it's like that in many of Eve's more powerful alliances.

Do you have a link to Goon finances? My googlefu must be off today.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#297 - 2012-06-29 23:13:38 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Ethilia wrote:
So in summary Eve's economy really is at the mercy of a plutocracy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy ). Goons tight ball of alliance isk is stupidly huge I'm sure and if private Goonie wealth dwarfs that.... At least Goons spend on their members. Somehow, I doubt it's like that in many of Eve's more powerful alliances.

Well its not like burn jita, hulkageddon, OTEC and the ice interdiction from last year are all interconnected somehow. What kind of crazy conspiracist would believe THAT? Shocked

Ethilia wrote:
Do you have a link to Goon finances? My googlefu must be off today.

Your googlefu is just fine, but needless to say we don't typically make that sort of thing public.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#298 - 2012-06-29 23:48:31 UTC
should of just banned them.
Youli Kepain
Scapegoats
#299 - 2012-06-29 23:49:47 UTC
Lets see how badly I will get flamed for this...

After all this is now done(more or less), there is only one thing left to say to the 5 Gentlemen responsible:
Well played, Sirs, well played.
Ethilia
Freelance Excavation and Resistance
#300 - 2012-06-29 23:57:52 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Ethilia wrote:
So in summary Eve's economy really is at the mercy of a plutocracy ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy ). Goons tight ball of alliance isk is stupidly huge I'm sure and if private Goonie wealth dwarfs that.... At least Goons spend on their members. Somehow, I doubt it's like that in many of Eve's more powerful alliances.

Well its not like burn jita, hulkageddon, OTEC and the ice interdiction from last year are all interconnected somehow. What kind of crazy conspiracist would believe THAT? Shocked


Don't get me wrong, I don't think Goon rule Eve ... yet. The economic strings of power are controlled by the << '1%' though it seems.

corestwo wrote:
Ethilia wrote:
Do you have a link to Goon finances? My googlefu must be off today.

Your googlefu is just fine, but needless to say we don't typically make that sort of thing public.


Then my reading comprehension must be bust:
Aryth wrote:
Ship replacement programs are funded through alliance income. Tech/Ratting/POCO Taxes. Our finances are public, so you can see the exact amounts if you want.