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New dev blog: The FW Exploit 2012 (or: How I learned about FOREX)

First post
Author
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#61 - 2012-06-28 16:48:28 UTC
My opinion: If you disclose an exploit to CCP, and then use said exploit, you are doing something wrong: Using what you yourself acknowledged as an exploit.

Also, many have this odd idea: "They did not fix it yet, so I got to force their hand". Why do you have to force their hand? If your enemy starts using the exploit, they will get the fallout when CCP nerfs them.

But to CCP, that is an issue. Someone discloses an exploit, their enemy starts using it, and you do nothing. In the moon mining exploit, you did nothing for a very long time. (To be fair, it was reported as a bug, not an exploit and never got into CCP's exploit fixing system. CCP just told those reporting it what the workaround for the bug was.)

This entire "LP for value destroyed" can be exploited in many ways. It does not have to be a LP store item that is traded up to a silly high value. CCP could actually fix that one by saying the LP handed out for the destruction of any item that is also available at a LP store will never exceed its LP cost.

But what about rarely traded items not available at the LP store? Especially ones that players can quickly create in large quantities, but are sufficiently unpopular that their trade volume is low? Those got to be handled too. Including unpopular T1 modules fitted to ships, and unpopular ships.

Also consider two players in different alliances that secretly work together: One drives up the price of an item to an unreal value. The other "just does market research" to find this item, and then buys a bunch at the real price and gets it destroyed.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2012-06-28 16:53:34 UTC
Nagapito wrote:

So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?

That's sort of what we're asking. It's clear it's an exploit to manipulate the price, then use it. What we're asking is if it's an exploit to use a differential we didn't create.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2012-06-28 16:55:07 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Nagapito wrote:

So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?

That's sort of what we're asking. It's clear it's an exploit to manipulate the price, then use it. What we're asking is if it's an exploit to use a differential we didn't create.


This. The market creates these disparties on it's own sometimes without player help. At least active help. Is it ok to use it then? Is it ok to use it as a matter converter? Essentially this system can function like reprocessing for any item in EVE. It has dramatic implications for EVE going forward.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#64 - 2012-06-28 16:55:38 UTC
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#65 - 2012-06-28 16:57:37 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We are displeased that you are using the money printing machines we made to print money.
Mara Tessidar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2012-06-28 16:59:13 UTC
Insurance fraud was anything but hypothetical, took place on a massive scale, and was even documented in at least one devblog and probably more. And it was legal.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#67 - 2012-06-28 17:00:08 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.

Printing money, or printing LP? There's a pretty big difference. Printing LP doesn't specifically print money; in fact, it reduces the amount of money in the economy by a nontrivial amount.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Mechaet
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2012-06-28 17:00:34 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Manipulating market prices = Exploiting.

There literally is no sandbox anymore.


Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.

Nowhere has anyone said Manipulating Market Prices is exploiting. Ever. At all.

I'm not trying to argue with you here, but I felt compelled to notify you about this little gem:

Quote:
What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency


Uhm, all values in the market are artificial? Literally all of them. Sure, we divine an acceptable price based on mineral costs, but those too are artificial values, given value by the players charging X for them based on how they value their time, plus a sliding adjustment to curb demand (if they're smart). Ergo, there are no "real" values of an item because the entire economy runs on artificial value.
Bagehi
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#69 - 2012-06-28 17:01:04 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.


Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2012-06-28 17:02:36 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.


Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?


He already said he'd pass that one around internally.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Red Teufel
calamitous-intent
Feign Disorder
#71 - 2012-06-28 17:05:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Navigator
doesn't really make sense to me. they didn't report the exploit immediatly, they abused it for two weeks, then basicly took the work ccp did for FW and took a steamy dump on it in front of the entire player base. who knows how much this frustrated players or caused people to unsub. who's in charge here ccp? you or goons?
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#72 - 2012-06-28 17:06:30 UTC
And here I was hoping they'd end up losing the ISK they put into buying stuff... ;(

Nyan

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#73 - 2012-06-28 17:08:32 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Nagapito wrote:

So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?

That's sort of what we're asking. It's clear it's an exploit to manipulate the price, then use it. What we're asking is if it's an exploit to use a differential we didn't create.


This. The market creates these disparties on it's own sometimes without player help. At least active help. Is it ok to use it then? Is it ok to use it as a matter converter? Essentially this system can function like reprocessing for any item in EVE. It has dramatic implications for EVE going forward.


I think it certainly has an impact on EVE as you stated, but that impact is something new. To make a statement of USING THE MARKET TO GAIN MONEY IS OVER EVE IS DYING, is a bit silly. (Not you specifically but others in this thread) This isn't a legacy problem and has no impact on how you deal with existing systems. It only impacts your interaction with FW.

What we need to do is take a good long hard look at how to deal with items that have disparate values in what are essentially two currencies. I'm pretty sure that is the pivot point in this scenario and from that perspective I'm just Winston Wolf. I don't design these systems.

As it stands today our stance is that buying something and purposely blowing it up to generate value in another currency is exploiting. It was clearly not our intent in creating the system for that to occur. The system was meant to encourage PVP not wanton suicidal destruction to print money.

I guess it would somewhat logically be the same to use an example as going to the lamp shop in America, buying a lamp and smashing it, and having the Chinese manufacturer send more money than you paid for it to your account over and over and over again. It's a bit of a stretch in my opinion at least to think this would ever be acceptable.

There's certainly a design flaw here that needs to be worked out but we have never intentionally introduced a system in EVE where buying an item and killing yourself should be a legitimate way to manufacture income. Least of all on a massive scale.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2012-06-28 17:09:37 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Manipulating market prices = Exploiting.

There literally is no sandbox anymore.


yeeeeah, um, thats not what happened

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Galizur Zageban
Doomheim
#75 - 2012-06-28 17:09:41 UTC
bad goons using exploits Pirate
and then saying CCP is kiling sandbox bohoho
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#76 - 2012-06-28 17:11:38 UTC
Querns wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.

Printing money, or printing LP? There's a pretty big difference. Printing LP doesn't specifically print money; in fact, it reduces the amount of money in the economy by a nontrivial amount.


What is the value of LP by itself?

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2012-06-28 17:11:44 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We are displeased that you are using the money printing machines we made to print money.


this would be more like, you buy a rifter, and the insurance payout is 3 billion isk.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#78 - 2012-06-28 17:13:19 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.


Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?


As stated in the blog only the five people who actively did this repeatedly were touched.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Legion
#79 - 2012-06-28 17:14:24 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.


I will point out that 'printing money from nowhere' is done by many mechanics, but they are being closed off. BPC lottery, datacores, living in a complex killing the last boss, etc. And of course, I say this while swimming scrouge mcduck style in a pool of technetium isk.

I think that it should be clear that market manipulation is legit gameplay, it is war with isk instead of guns. The only sketchy part was the LP conversion using these modified prices, and even then, it would be something I think CCP should be able to catch. For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?
Mara Tessidar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2012-06-28 17:14:50 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
As stated in the blog only the five people who actively did this repeatedly were touched.


CCP Sandusky