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New dev blog: The FW Exploit 2012 (or: How I learned about FOREX)

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#81 - 2012-06-28 17:15:25 UTC
Bagehi wrote:


Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?


How will it be known that they did not do the manipulations themselves? Say with an alt on a trial account always played at a different location so as to have a different IP address?

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#82 - 2012-06-28 17:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
CCP Sreegs wrote:
As stated in the blog only the five people who actively did this repeatedly were touched.


Meaning, no, as much as many goons would like to see Jade lose the 8b isk he bragged about from Minmatar hitting Tier 5, he won't, nor would anyone else who happened to be online at the right time. I'm sure people will ask the same question about twenty times in the thread, though... Blink

Vincent Athena wrote:
Bagehi wrote:


Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?


How will it be known that they did not do the manipulations themselves? Say with an alt on a trial account always played at a different location so as to have a different IP address?

The original person was asking because Jade Constantine (among many others, but he posted about it) profited when we got Minmatar really close to Tier 5 and they finished the job. It irks many goons that someone they don't like legitimately profited off of our endeavors, you see.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Mechaet
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2012-06-28 17:16:06 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?

The logs show nothing. But they can make graphs up when they don't show the numbers.
Tek Handle
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#84 - 2012-06-28 17:16:45 UTC

Good job CCP! Honestly!

PS. I like Goon tears. Big smile
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#85 - 2012-06-28 17:17:46 UTC
Mechaet wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?

The logs show nothing. But they can make graphs up when they don't show the numbers.


You didn't read the thread, did you? Sreegs said they left the numbers out on purpose. I can assure you, however, that the graph is quite correct and by no means made up...

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#86 - 2012-06-28 17:17:58 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.


I will point out that 'printing money from nowhere' is done by many mechanics, but they are being closed off. BPC lottery, datacores, living in a complex killing the last boss, etc. And of course, I say this while swimming scrouge mcduck style in a pool of technetium isk.

I think that it should be clear that market manipulation is legit gameplay, it is war with isk instead of guns. The only sketchy part was the LP conversion using these modified prices, and even then, it would be something I think CCP should be able to catch. For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?


Yeah I'm pretty sure I already stated that just mucking with markets isn't the core problem here. The manipulation is only relevant because the number is used BY US to determine an item's value in a separate currency. This isn't in and of itself an issue until you buy a bunch of them and kill yourself over and over again to pump up massive sums of the foreign currency which in this case is LP.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Implying Implications
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2012-06-28 17:18:58 UTC
Disappointing. The sandbox is finished.

hello
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-06-28 17:19:31 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
What is the value of LP by itself?


It's wholly dependent on the market. Earning LP doesn't actually generate you any money. Other players have to pay you in order for you to convert the currency to a meaningful state, unless you deal in a barter economy of skillbooks and starbase charters.

I won't disagree that generating hilarious amounts of LP is probably not right, but classifying it as "printing money" is just patently false.

Consider the (unlikely) situation in which CCP either hadn't noticed or didn't care about the FW forex actions. We would have generated infinite LP* (*note: probably no more than 2.1b at a time due to laffeaux signed 32-bit integer, and also it's not truly infinite because even the implants we manipulated had an isk cost to acquire, but that's just semantics.) Assuming that we were terrible at the game and were unable to show restraint in cashing out LP, prices for LP items would have steadily approached the isk cost of the items as LP value went to zero. At that point, you could hardly consider printing infinite LP to be "printing money" -- it's worthless!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Pipa Porto
#89 - 2012-06-28 17:19:52 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.


Insurance fraud was anything but Hypothetical. Those exact circumstance happened and was abused on a very large scale. If it's an exploit, why no rollback?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2012-06-28 17:20:01 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

As it stands today our stance is that buying something and purposely blowing it up to generate value in another currency is exploiting. It was clearly not our intent in creating the system for that to occur. The system was meant to encourage PVP not wanton suicidal destruction to print money.

I guess it would somewhat logically be the same to use an example as going to the lamp shop in America, buying a lamp and smashing it, and having the Chinese manufacturer send more money than you paid for it to your account over and over and over again. It's a bit of a stretch in my opinion at least to think this would ever be acceptable.

I don't agree with this decision, but thanks for being clear about it. I would like to point out, however, that the second paragraph absolutely is acceptable and always has been in EVE: insurance fraud is allowed, has always been allowed, and although mechanisms were put in place to reduce its occurrence has never been considered an exploit. And it is straight minerals -> isk conversion, much as these mechanisms allow item -> lp conversion.

I also think it's untenable to try to create a system where you can easily and obviously convert things to LP but you are not allowed to, but that's more a problem for your team and discovering it's not really enforceable.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Mechaet
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2012-06-28 17:21:22 UTC
How about if I convert currency (ISK) to other forms, and then use a long-standing, perfectly-understood game mechanic to convert those forms back to currency at a rate higher than input?

I'm only asking because I do this literally every day I play. I've acquired Scrooge McDuck levels of isk doing it, too.
Pipa Porto
#92 - 2012-06-28 17:22:26 UTC
Red Teufel wrote:
doesn't really make sense to me. they didn't report the exploit immediatly, they abused it for two weeks, then basicly took the work ccp did for FW and took a steamy dump on it in front of the entire player base. who knows how much this frustrated players or caused people to unsub. who's in charge here ccp? you or goons? my best guess a dev told em about the exploit and it wouldn't be the first time a dev has given someone in game a perk. (cough t2 bpos! for all my friends cough cough)


People warned CCP about this when they mentioned it in Fanfest. Forex in an economy as small as EvE (with infinite NPC supplies of one currency) is going to result in this happening. A lot. No matter what.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-06-28 17:22:30 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Nagapito wrote:

So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?

That's sort of what we're asking. It's clear it's an exploit to manipulate the price, then use it. What we're asking is if it's an exploit to use a differential we didn't create.


This. The market creates these disparties on it's own sometimes without player help. At least active help. Is it ok to use it then? Is it ok to use it as a matter converter? Essentially this system can function like reprocessing for any item in EVE. It has dramatic implications for EVE going forward.


I think it certainly has an impact on EVE as you stated, but that impact is something new. To make a statement of USING THE MARKET TO GAIN MONEY IS OVER EVE IS DYING, is a bit silly. (Not you specifically but others in this thread) This isn't a legacy problem and has no impact on how you deal with existing systems. It only impacts your interaction with FW.

What we need to do is take a good long hard look at how to deal with items that have disparate values in what are essentially two currencies. I'm pretty sure that is the pivot point in this scenario and from that perspective I'm just Winston Wolf. I don't design these systems.

As it stands today our stance is that buying something and purposely blowing it up to generate value in another currency is exploiting. It was clearly not our intent in creating the system for that to occur. The system was meant to encourage PVP not wanton suicidal destruction to print money.

I guess it would somewhat logically be the same to use an example as going to the lamp shop in America, buying a lamp and smashing it, and having the Chinese manufacturer send more money than you paid for it to your account over and over and over again. It's a bit of a stretch in my opinion at least to think this would ever be acceptable.

There's certainly a design flaw here that needs to be worked out but we have never intentionally introduced a system in EVE where buying an item and killing yourself should be a legitimate way to manufacture income. Least of all on a massive scale.


I just want to point out, that even if someone generates negative returns doing this, they might still have very good financial reasons for doing so.

Please consider the reprocessing angle. This has essentially introduced a mechanic where you can reprocess anything in EVE and get a return (probably not what you paid for it of course). But many manipulation scenerios might mean you can remove some supply from EVE and profit on the spike in the item. I understand the intention wasn't that to begin with. I would ask the developers to consider the ramifications of that in EVE. I think it is a good thing to be able to get some value for anything in EVE as reprocessing tradionally has only worked for a portion of the market.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#94 - 2012-06-28 17:22:49 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.


Insurance fraud was anything but Hypothetical. Those exact circumstance happened and was abused on a very large scale. If it's an exploit, why no rollback?


I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits)

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#95 - 2012-06-28 17:25:32 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits)

The issue is the thing you've said directly applies to insurance fraud. Insurance fraud was directly a case where you blew something up and got more than the value of that item back - in isk not an alternative currency like lp.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#96 - 2012-06-28 17:29:21 UTC
While I'm sure this is destined to be a goon-run threadnaught, I personally think CCP handled this perfectly. They could have gone extreme and seized all of their assets and isk and banned them, or they could have just ignored the problem (old CCP), but this explanation and the consequences seem very well balanced and *gasp*... fair.

Whoever was in charge of dealing with this... should be given more freedom to deal with things.

+1

Signatures should be used responsibly...
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#97 - 2012-06-28 17:30:51 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits)

The issue is the thing you've said directly applies to insurance fraud. Insurance fraud was directly a case where you blew something up and got more than the value of that item back - in isk not an alternative currency like lp.


I don't disagree at all I'm just tired and really not prepared to compare one to the other. I'm still heads down in fixing this one.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#98 - 2012-06-28 17:31:57 UTC
Gogela wrote:
While I'm sure this is destined to be a goon-run threadnaught, I personally think CCP handled this perfectly. They could have gone extreme and seized all of their assets and isk and banned them, or they could have just ignored the problem (old CCP), but this explanation and the consequences seem very well balanced and *gasp*... fair.

Whoever was in charge of dealing with this... should be given more freedom to deal with things.

+1


You may not have noticed, but all five of us involved (or the ones posting, anyway) are satisfied with CCP's judgement. I mean, we'd prefer our trillions, but we're all capable market players...I'm sure we'll get there on our own soon enough. Cool

The other goons posting are posting because posting is what goons do.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Pipa Porto
#99 - 2012-06-28 17:32:42 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Nagapito wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.

That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit?
If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?


As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased.


Insurance fraud was anything but Hypothetical. Those exact circumstance happened and was abused on a very large scale. If it's an exploit, why no rollback?


I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits)


Fair enough. Insurance fraud just happened to hit both of your Xes in your IF X THEN CCP=Mad statement.

In fact, Insurance Fraud occurred the exact same way that the FW exploit started (with the freighters full of minerals).

The market fell >> The CCP value of minerals stayed higher than the market >> People committed blew up their ships to make tons of money. In this case it was LP, with insurance fraud it was ISK, and instead of having to pay for insurance, all you had to do was join FW.

The furtherance of the exploit was due to the small size of the EvE market and the presence of totally useless, rare items.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Squizz Caphinator
The Wormhole Police
#100 - 2012-06-28 17:35:11 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Squizz Caphinator wrote:
Aryth wrote:

Highest Kill Value ever in EVE? http://imgur.com/1fSsT


API or GTFO :)

(no really, I'd love to see that on eve-kill as API verified)


http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=1372523&m=6&y=2012

That is one char. EVE Kill doesn't seem to use CCP values though. But even with EVE Central prices the 160b freighter kill will stand etc.


Wow! Whenever a big isk kill is posted it gets reported in the channel. We had a mini-flood from our bot :)

Impressive even at EveKill's values (which we get from Eve-Central as a 30 day average).

Tyvm for sharing!

Various projects I enjoy putting my free time into:

https://zkillboard.com | https://evewho.com