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CCP - Did you miss the fanfest round table for FW?

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#121 - 2011-09-27 13:49:03 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Cearain wrote:
.. agree this acts as a counter balance for several pilots...

The pile-up on Caldari never actually happened you know, it merely looked that way because the Gallente was depopulated but the people leaving left FW entirely. The rest is/was down to normal fluctuations.

1. Caldari had a huge influx at the start due to the insane money making potential from COSMOS items becoming easily accessible through FW.
The standings grind needed for said COSMOS items was one of the reasons why Caldari "won". They managed to convince everyone that they might as well help plex rather than grind missions so their plexers outnumbered the frogs by a huge margin.
2. Not seeing how that relates to the pile-on effect, seems to be the opposite. But some good-hearted animosity is very much key if living in the rat infested trenches.
3. We do, just not quickly like our ADHD afflicted non-RP meatshields .. muhahahaha Big smile
4. Those new to PvP may well join what looks like the "winning side", but they are promptly eaten alive by the experienced PvP'ers who joined the under-dog side for the challenge .. door swings both ways Smile
5. NPC balance or lack thereof had by far the biggest effect on the apparent pile-on of the Caldari. It has been neutered somewhat with the agent changes though as one can now almost pick-and-choose mission and location due to all purveyors being the same.
Would be super sweet, like rainbow farting unicorns sweet, if there were missions designed for small gangs similar to Incursions as PvP'ers who has a legitimate and often urgent need for cash generally function best with wing-men.
6. Sounds very good on paper, and would serve to make the militia stations the natural bases for the respective militia's. But as any pirate will tell you, sentries are not to be feared, with just a handful of people the damage they do is diluted to a point where even local tanking is enough..


I thought Hans was saying pilots would switch sides to the underdogs if one side had too big of an advantage. I was agreeing that some probably would.

I don't think players switching sides would cause the main pile up. The main pile up would be caused by people joining faction war for the first time or the first time in a long time. If the winning side is given better income and other buffs new people will naturally choose that side.

1) That sort of proves my point. People joined Caldari because you could make better income. Hence if the winning side has better isk making more people will join that. Also the problem wasn't just that people were leaving Gallente. I'm sure people left Caldari too. The problem is people were leaving Gallente fw faster than new pilots were joining gallente fw.
2) Again I thought Hans was saying players would switch to the underdog side like I did a few times when I was in rvb. That was how fw would self correct. I was pointing out that switching sides in fw is not as easy as switching sides in rvb.
3) eh this isn't that big of a factor.
4) I agree that is true to some extent. But it didn't quite work out for the gallente.
5)Yeah I agree caldari has an edge because their missions are supposed to be the easiest to run. CCP should give all the mission rats painters and missiles. That way you can't do them solo in a sb. As far as your proposal to have some new form of missions in fw with sleeper ai requiring groups I would be all in support of it. Just keep your damn rats out of the plexes! I just want one *one* mechanic that a solo pvper can use. In all of new eden that shouldn't be too much to ask.
6) I agree but on the whole it would probably be good nonetheless.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#122 - 2011-09-27 13:56:53 UTC
You go a long way towards preventing the snowball effect if you make it progressively harder to capture systems. The first enemy system is easy to take and hold. The tenth less so. The thirtieth almost impossible.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#123 - 2011-09-27 14:12:25 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:

I suggested a solution to the LP-for-plex conundrum a while that nimbly avoids afk-frig farming:
- Closing a plex awards a certain amount of LP that are put into escrow (think Incursion LP).
- Mission LP awards draws from this escrow can never exceed what is available. If pool is empty a mission only pays out half (or something like that).
Straight LP for closing plexes would make a complete redesign of the things mandatory to prevent farming and would most likely have to include your hated plex NPCs to help with this .. just sayin' Smile

As for stations suddenly switching sides: CCP would need to RP it like mad to justify such a thing as they are merely satellite offices of multi-national corporations, but to have corporations that employ 100s of millions pull up stakes just because something as irrelevant as occupancy flips (which happens a lot in some systems!) makes no sense.



I like the escrow idea. It could work well. No it wouldn't need to include npcs as long as players were notified of plexes. Big smile

As for companies selling stations to other companies it does make sense. Most of these companies are selling miltiary equipment and have very close political ties with the enemy. (every 16 missions yields a storyline mission for the faction etc) Do you think the occupying faction would let all the war materials go back to the enemy? Do you think they would let all profits go back to the companies hq in the enemy faction? Don't you think the occupying faction might at least impose some steep taxes on companies exporting military goods to the enemy? Do you think there would be no friction at all? To me it doesn't make sense that there is no effect on these military companies.

I suppose the quafe company would have a smaller chance of switching. Moreover I'm saying a small percent like say 5% chance of switching every 3 months of occupancy. I'm not saying they would necessarilly abandon all their assets and run but that might happen. I think mainly they would find it "in their interest" to sell the assets - stations etc. to another company and possibly buy one in a place with a better political climate.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#124 - 2011-09-27 14:23:49 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
You go a long way towards preventing the snowball effect if you make it progressively harder to capture systems. The first enemy system is easy to take and hold. The tenth less so. The thirtieth almost impossible.



I like this idea allot. That last hold out systems would be the most loyal to their faction. Perhaps they would have some connections with the people running the acceleration gates and start letting larger friendly ships into the plexes. Pirate

I'm not sure exactly how this line would be drawn but lets say 3/4s of gallente space is taken. Caldari get a medal. But then the plex acceleration gates start letting gallente ships in that are one class higher. So for their defensive plexes gallente can get cruisers into minors and bcs into mediums etc. (caldari would still be limited by the original requirments and both would have the original restrictions on the caldari space plexes.) Once Gallente are down to their last 10% of systems they can get ships 2 levels higher in to plexes to try to hold out. (Caldari would get another medal at this point)

It could lead to some pretty epic fights where one side needs dozens of frigates to take a minor plex from a couple battleships.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Bengal Bob
Slymsloot Enterprises
#125 - 2011-09-29 11:53:56 UTC
Almost lost this thread, back you go to show new players how CCP treats its players.
Amun Khonsu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#126 - 2011-09-29 20:36:18 UTC
This goes to my earlier points regarding the use of Supercaps in low sec that directly affects us in Faction War.

Prime examples of why Supercaps need to be rebalanced to make them more vulnerable. This is ridiculous that supercaps are so safe.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10649647
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10648157
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10566107
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10615715

CCP needs to make them more vulnerable in low sec.

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#127 - 2011-10-01 09:37:45 UTC
Yeah, I suggested tying immunity to sovereignty as it addresses supers in low-sec and the large scale offensive/defensive blobs we see these days .. they would/could still be used but to hotdrop everything in sight but if HICs are no longer mandatory to threaten them we should see a lot more wrecks.
Combined with the oft suggested increase in vanish time based on mass upon log-off they change from Swiss army knives to scalpels which is where I at least want them to be.

PS: Page 4! Holy hell, the anti-bot spam threads move this poor thing faster than the anti-MT emo threads did!
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2011-10-05 18:14:06 UTC
According to Zulu's winter expansion list, a FW iteration is coming soon.

No, really.

Stop laughing, it actually says it right here.

Stay tuned!
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#129 - 2011-10-05 18:33:10 UTC
Also:

CCP Hellmar wrote:
Factional warfare needs to be fixed

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Darius Shakor
Second Shakor Clan
#130 - 2011-10-05 19:36:50 UTC
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
According to Zulu's winter expansion list, a FW iteration is coming soon.

No, really.

Stop laughing, it actually says it right here.

Stay tuned!


Followed by this.

Quote:
I want to make it clear that this is not a final list. As we go through design and implementation phases some things may require more work than initially expected and others may not hold water in the design phase and therefore may not make it into this particular expansion.


I know, not trying to be a downer here. It is good that CCP still has FW on the table and now know they need to do something with it. But putting this here on record so that people don't then begin whining if it does not make it into Winter 2011. They did say it might not happen by then. Especially since it seems CCP are making somewhat of a course correction with little time to spare.

Of course, I do hope it does hit us in winter, really. And if not then some time close after.Big smile

Darius Shakor - Kacha

Vandeamon Writing Project - EVE Works
Dehlandrae
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
#131 - 2011-10-05 22:35:46 UTC
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#132 - 2011-10-05 23:03:24 UTC
You should know better by now Darius.
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#133 - 2011-10-06 12:08:32 UTC
Remember CCP's own words: watch what they do not what they say. CCP's history is rife with lies, play-on-words, promises. Their action so far say they care nothing about faction war and I honestly see this latest blog as a last ditch attempt to stop the bleeding sub numbers. Don't you know CCP needs those to get their investment money for Dust and WoD.

I for one don't believe the blog. I find it extremely suspicious that after months and months of asking that CCP suddenly states FW will be in the next expansion.

This leads to a few scenarios: 1) Devs actually kept a secret all these months of planning on FW to not leak one word to the community and at the same time played customer-no-service in addressing anything regarding FW in the forums; 2) CCP decided this last week or so to address FW so you'll get a poor thought out change which will probably cause more harm than good; 3) FW changes are not what you think and another play-on-words by CCP and they just rip the damn thing out so there cannot be more accusations of not addressing FW; 4) the most likely scenario- CCP will say we had all this cool stuff planned but due to resources and time constraints the update will be put off for polishing, testing, etc etc etc.---another big promise and no delivery.
Amun Khonsu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#134 - 2011-10-06 12:13:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Amun Khonsu
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
According to Zulu's winter expansion list, a FW iteration is coming soon.

No, really.

Stop laughing, it actually says it right here.

Stay tuned!


I read that today along with the CCP's CEO statement.

I hope they figure out something for FW soon. Of course I'd rather them do it right than rush out a half baked solution.

I've seen a sharp decline in FW interest in general over the past year plus. Even moreso since incarna came out and supers were made invincible in low sec allowing big alliances to move in from 0.0 to grief FW corps not capable of dishing out such hardware in defense.

As it is nothing meaningful comes out of being in faction war unless you like to get hyperblobbed to hell. The way it stands, it'd be just as well for a corp to drop FW and wardec a slew of ppl to get kills. There are plenty of other ways to earn isk without FW missions or gain faction standings without plexing.

I will take CCPs CEO at his word and look forward to some changes. I've always tried to maintain a positive outlook and hope, but far too many people out there arent so giving.

We will see. Im pulling for CCP to do what is right and keep peoples interest in FW. It is a great place for ppl to learn PvP (solo and gang) and leadership even if they have aspirations of moving on to other things like 0.0, etc.

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#135 - 2011-10-06 13:22:15 UTC
Amun Khonsu wrote:
[quote=Shaalira D'arc]We will see. Im pulling for CCP to do what is right and keep peoples interest in FW. It is a great place for ppl to learn PvP (solo and gang) and leadership even if they have aspirations of moving on to other things like 0.0, etc.



I agree with everything you say but this last bit.

IMO FW should stand on its own in this sandbox. New players can join a null sec corp and learn to blob just fine now. FW does not need to be a stepping stone to that.

Instead FW should be a mechanic in eve that provides frequent quality small scale pvp. If it did that I bet allot of players would "move on" from null sec to fw. Especially when they realize they need to prioritize real life yet still want to have fun pvping in eve.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Amun Khonsu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#136 - 2011-10-06 14:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Amun Khonsu
Cearain wrote:
Amun Khonsu wrote:
[quote=Shaalira D'arc]We will see. Im pulling for CCP to do what is right and keep peoples interest in FW. It is a great place for ppl to learn PvP (solo and gang) and leadership even if they have aspirations of moving on to other things like 0.0, etc.



I agree with everything you say but this last bit.

IMO FW should stand on its own in this sandbox. New players can join a null sec corp and learn to blob just fine now. FW does not need to be a stepping stone to that.

Instead FW should be a mechanic in eve that provides frequent quality small scale pvp. If it did that I bet allot of players would "move on" from null sec to fw. Especially when they realize they need to prioritize real life yet still want to have fun pvping in eve.


Yeah, you are right. It should be in its own sandbox, to some degree leastways.

I think it depends on what some folks mean by 'small scale' pvp. Some of the pvp blobbs I have seen in FW are large, 50+ man fleets and we have seen fleets of well over 100+ ppl (a while ago tho). I've been in a couple fleets with nearly 150 members little more than a year and a half ago. During POS takedowns the numbers can go up (tho recent months there has been a sharp decline in the fleet sizes). Third party involvement inflates this too. I'd call a lot of these fleets medium to large scale gang warfare.

I dont think CCP can regulate the size of a fleet in FW to keep it 'small scale' since that definition is relative and people shouldnt be limited to fleet size to keep the scale 'small'. One man's small scale may mean 5 people whereas another may mean 50+.

Quality in FW will always be a mixture of complete noobs and highly experienced players. So, the quality will always be diluted based on the individuals and corps bringing new people into the fold. For example, a quality fleet in a 0.0 SOV system held by 'x' corp may be top notch (or near so) as they only allow ppl in the corp or alliance with 50 mill skillpoints or above. Whereas, in FW anyone from the day they get their first a full account can join FW with TLF and every FW corp has different standards of the quality of players they bring in. If one militia corp only lets ppl with 30 mill skillpints to join and the other the minumum is 1 million, then the quality of the fleets will reflect that.

What I mean basically is regardless of what a person wants to do in EVE, whether it be learn pvp and return to their high sec carbearing, move on to an alliance or 0.0 space, or remain in FW and improve and advance their faction, factional warfare is one of many ways (perhaps more ideal) they can learn the basic ropes of PvP and gang warfare from personal experiences and more experinced PvPers and fleet commanders.

Factional Warfare should stand on its own and work on its own mechanic but is a good place for people, regardless of skillpoints or experience) to take advantage and better their PvP and commanding skills whether they stay in the militia or decide to move on.

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#137 - 2011-10-06 16:25:32 UTC
Darius Shakor wrote:
...Of course, I do hope it does hit us in winter, really. And if not then some time close after.Big smile

And how much do you think it will be worth, considering that the current implementation took a full expansion (+cycle) to put together and practically every facet of our little universe needs to be redone?
CCP has not made any strides to even discuss possible FW changes internally according to a Dev a few months back, since it was barely a louse on a hair on the ass-end of their priority list. Do you really believe that FW will be better off with whatever they can cook up in less than a week, which is probably what is left when they are done fulfilling all their other Winter promises ..

There is no "fix" to FW. It is so fundamentally flawed that it will remain on life-support without some major surgery.
Cearain wrote:
..IMO FW should stand on its own in this sandbox...

Screw the FW centric thinking Lol Low-sec as a whole should be the 'unique' partition of the sandbox, driven by PvP and YarrRP, FW can then fit neatly into this unique part of the sandbox as the empires fight for supremacy of the wilderness between borders.
mkint
#138 - 2011-10-06 17:47:34 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Darius Shakor wrote:
...Of course, I do hope it does hit us in winter, really. And if not then some time close after.Big smile

And how much do you think it will be worth, considering that the current implementation took a full expansion (+cycle) to put together and practically every facet of our little universe needs to be redone?
CCP has not made any strides to even discuss possible FW changes internally according to a Dev a few months back, since it was barely a louse on a hair on the ass-end of their priority list. Do you really believe that FW will be better off with whatever they can cook up in less than a week, which is probably what is left when they are done fulfilling all their other Winter promises ..

There is no "fix" to FW. It is so fundamentally flawed that it will remain on life-support without some major surgery.
Cearain wrote:
..IMO FW should stand on its own in this sandbox...

Screw the FW centric thinking Lol Low-sec as a whole should be the 'unique' partition of the sandbox, driven by PvP and YarrRP, FW can then fit neatly into this unique part of the sandbox as the empires fight for supremacy of the wilderness between borders.

^This is where my thinking is.

How many months are we into the expansion cycle? Winter is supposed to be before Christmas? That's one third of the cycle left. There has been absolutely ZERO discussion with the players about FW. There are NO CCPers who specialize in FW (by their own admission.) And they are going to try to shoehorn in a fix, what should be a massive overhaul, into a massive expansion that's supposed to fix everything else with EVE to stop the hemorrhaging? I call bullshit on it. Or at least on it actually being good.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#139 - 2011-10-06 18:54:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Darius Shakor wrote:
...Of course, I do hope it does hit us in winter, really. And if not then some time close after.Big smile

And how much do you think it will be worth, considering that the current implementation took a full expansion (+cycle) to put together and practically every facet of our little universe needs to be redone?
CCP has not made any strides to even discuss possible FW changes internally according to a Dev a few months back, since it was barely a louse on a hair on the ass-end of their priority list. Do you really believe that FW will be better off with whatever they can cook up in less than a week, which is probably what is left when they are done fulfilling all their other Winter promises ..


Actually I could have sworn a dev said something like they have ideas that they will be hardening up into a dev blog soon.

edit: this is what I am refering to: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=66438#post66438

And allot of the ideas of fw plexes are already pretty good they just need to keep iterating on it.


Hirana Yoshida wrote:
[
Cearain wrote:
..IMO FW should stand on its own in this sandbox...

Screw the FW centric thinking Lol Low-sec as a whole should be the 'unique' partition of the sandbox, driven by PvP and YarrRP, FW can then fit neatly into this unique part of the sandbox as the empires fight for supremacy of the wilderness between borders.


Screw the pirate centric thinking. Both FW and piracy and other mechanics should be able to stand on their own in this sandbox. We shouldn't try to say fw needs to fit into piracy.

And anyway you took what I said out of context. I said FW shouldn't be seen as some sort of stepping stone to null sec. I wasn't at all putting down other low sec activities.

But you are right pvp should be the driver of low sec.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#140 - 2011-10-06 18:59:24 UTC
Amun Khonsu wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Amun Khonsu wrote:
[quote=Shaalira D'arc]We will see. Im pulling for CCP to do what is right and keep peoples interest in FW. It is a great place for ppl to learn PvP (solo and gang) and leadership even if they have aspirations of moving on to other things like 0.0, etc.



I agree with everything you say but this last bit.

IMO FW should stand on its own in this sandbox. New players can join a null sec corp and learn to blob just fine now. FW does not need to be a stepping stone to that.

Instead FW should be a mechanic in eve that provides frequent quality small scale pvp. If it did that I bet allot of players would "move on" from null sec to fw. Especially when they realize they need to prioritize real life yet still want to have fun pvping in eve.


Yeah, you are right. It should be in its own sandbox, to some degree leastways.

I think it depends on what some folks mean by 'small scale' pvp. Some of the pvp blobbs I have seen in FW are large, 50+ man fleets and we have seen fleets of well over 100+ ppl (a while ago tho). I've been in a couple fleets with nearly 150 members little more than a year and a half ago. During POS takedowns the numbers can go up (tho recent months there has been a sharp decline in the fleet sizes). Third party involvement inflates this too. I'd call a lot of these fleets medium to large scale gang warfare.

I dont think CCP can regulate the size of a fleet in FW to keep it 'small scale' since that definition is relative and people shouldnt be limited to fleet size to keep the scale 'small'. One man's small scale may mean 5 people whereas another may mean 50+..


I think we agree on this.

If they fixed fw plexing then there would be allot more small scale combat. The plexes do not allow ships of various sizes in. So it tends to make it so there are not large blobs.

The reason you tend to see only see fw pilots in large blobs is because the plexing mechanic is broken. So with nothing to do people tend to just form a large blob and roam around. Of course there will still be blobbed after the plexing is fixed. But you will also have allot more small scale pvp too. Right now you get very little of that in fw or really anywhere in eve.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815