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New dev blog: This Week In The Unified Inventory

First post First post
Author
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#501 - 2012-05-30 02:38:59 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:
This is a very good point. Now I can't promise that we'll get around to it right now, as there is plenty of other stuff that's higher in priority atm, but I'll note this down for sure.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
Quote:
Looting: Cargo containers and wrecks will function the same. Having multiple wrecks or containers open should be easy to loot as you can just click “loot all” and it will automatically go to the next item on the list instead of your ships cargohold. There is an added performance increase as well.

Great.
Now, can we have shortcut for "Open Container"? It's been 1.5 years since new shortcuts were introduced.. What?

I was actually surprised to find there wasn't one. Can we please have this oversight fixed in the near future? Would be greatly appreciated.



Uhmm... maybe I'm not following, but isn't double clicking shortcut to open container? Unless you guys broke it in the last patch it was working fine before/after Inferno.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Sunrise Omega
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#502 - 2012-05-30 03:05:17 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:
You can fix this yourself through the system menu / shortcuts tab. Just rebind ALT+C to "Open cargo of active ship" instead of "Open Inventory".

Sanya Mazepa wrote:
ALT + C inside station should open your cargo, instead it opens the unified invenotry window with whatever you were looking at last... this is not how it should be. Please fix asap!

Overall a nice addition to eve once all the kinks are ironed out. +1



The default should never have been changed. You should have added a new short-cut for the Unified Inventory window, or just stuck it on the Neocom without a short-cut key and left our existing shortcuts alone.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#503 - 2012-05-30 03:09:24 UTC
I really to hope you'll watch this CCP_Optimal. I put a good amount of work into it, and I've never recorded my voice before for anything.

Just something I put together for more effective feedback. I hope you find it useful.
http://youtu.be/HcG5Ha5wAFY

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#504 - 2012-05-30 03:36:03 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
I really to hope you'll watch this CCP_Optimal. I put a good amount of work into it, and I've never recorded my voice before for anything.

Just something I put together for more effective feedback. I hope you find it useful.
http://youtu.be/HcG5Ha5wAFY



Im sure you put a lot of work into it . A for effort :)

and hopefully it will aid in getting the point across.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#505 - 2012-05-30 04:03:55 UTC
TLDR; the whole thread, but I'll toss in my 0.02 ISK anyway.

I think you basically took a pretty good idea, and managed to turn it into a bad idea by how you integrated it.

Cargoholds are important to people operating in space. I really can't stand having my carefully placed cargohold window usurpepd by some container or hanger I'm opening.

Having to shift-click all the time is horrible, the defaults are horrible. As it is integrated, it basically displaces everything that was good about the old system, without actually replacing those use cases. If you'd just *added* it without displacing it, everything would be cool. If all the old buttons, clicks, etc. opened exactly what they opened before, with the tree collapsed, everybody would have applauded the new feature.

I'm pretty optimistic that we'll have something nice once you straighten it out.

But don't you think you really need to address the process issue, that led you to screw up this way? It's not like it wasn't testable, and it's not like it's not the first time.

Still, kudos on the response. That appears to be working. I hope you don't break things in the process, but perfect and refine that bit of process, and keep it.

Just try not to need it too often for anything too serious again.
ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2012-05-30 04:12:09 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
I really to hope you'll watch this CCP_Optimal. I put a good amount of work into it, and I've never recorded my voice before for anything.

Just something I put together for more effective feedback. I hope you find it useful.
http://youtu.be/HcG5Ha5wAFY


Sheer genius!

Not half so much for accurately capturing what's needed, as leveraging Windows 7 to make such a powerful demonstration.

The use of Windows 7 as a metaphor even makes a very strong case for WHY this is what's needed. Not just the familiarity factor (although that's real), but because Windows 7's functionality has evolved from a long history of experience with similar needs.

It's also worth noting that very similar functionality is found in MacOS and various Linux file managers.
Alli Othman
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#507 - 2012-05-30 04:33:13 UTC
I miss being able to drag things from a ship's hangar to ANY division of my personal hangar and have it actually go- and separate into the proper hangar as necessary. So if I was dragging a couple ships and a bunch of mods from an orca to my personal hangar the mods would go into the Items section and the ships would go into the ship hangar. Now I have to manually de-select the ships and specifically drag all modules/items to the Item division, and I have to specifically drag the ships to the ship hangar.

That's more clicks for the same job and is pretty annoying that the old functionality has been taken away. It makes multi-hangared ships a lot more difficult.


Another problem is opening anything in space results in the entire big inventory. This is pretty distracting and really doesn't make much sense. A scaled down version would be more than welcome.

The amount of work to do old functions needs to be re-evaluated and adjusted, and old functionality needs to be returned otherwise the new inventory is just cumbersome.
Disdaine
#508 - 2012-05-30 04:50:28 UTC
ISK Value is absolutely useless. Please make it optional so I can reclaim some screen real estate.

Think I might go and put up a bunch of items at a couple of billion isk each.
Cold Ethyl
FetLife
#509 - 2012-05-30 04:59:32 UTC
Citrute wrote:
How about you put the old inventory system back while you make these weekly changes.

I'll just be over here, playing not eve until this mess is sorted.

Jonuts wrote:
Quote:

We did not ignore feedback at all. In some cases we didn't agree. In some cases we did agree and made changes. In some cases we felt that players weren't even giving the new proposed way of doing things a chance and that it might just be a matter of getting used to. It's certain that we didn't get everything right the first time around. That's why we have iteration.


You're right. It's totally our fault. We're all too ******* stupid to tell the difference between "This is different" and "This is garbage". I apologize. I didn't mean to offend your superior sensibilities. How dare us lowly people who actually have to USE this system criticize it.


quoting for truth



This may be many pages past, but SO worth re-quoting FOR THE TRUTH!!! I, and all my friends must also be "...too F***ing stupid to tell the difference between "This is different" and "This is garbage" "

Please CCP, tell me what crap paper I should wipe with, and what color my car should be, and what the hell, should I go to work tomorrow? I'm obviously just too F-ing stupid to figure it out myself. I mistakenly assumed this should be enjoyable AND usable. Tell me what to do, when to do it and for how long, and anything else I don't have the brain power to accomplish without your oh-so-much-more evolved wisdom. Perhaps I shouldn't have said all this. Who knows? I am not qualified to make that judgement.
Cold Ethyl
FetLife
#510 - 2012-05-30 05:15:10 UTC
Dennie Fleetfoot wrote:
CCP Optimal wrote:
I've not been able to be very active on the forums for the last couple of days simple because my time is better spent fixing defects as it is.

First, on the SISI thing; it's true that we let a few issues slip us and that's regrettable, but it is simply a fact that not all issues surface on test servers. We certainly did fix a LOT of issues that we discovered through your feedback from SISI. But, not all of them sadly.

Revamping a fundamental system, used by every single player, such as the inventory system so that it will fit every player's needs and expectations from day one is a tall order to say the least. There is probably no other system within EVE that is as multidimensional as the inventory and the use cases seem to be endless. The old system had not changed much at all and most of you veterans could probably operate it at lightning speeds blindfolded. Having to waste time re-learning basic things is annoying as hell and I get it. I've been there myself. I would be pretty furious if someone forced me to use a different Python editor, and it would probably slow me down tremendously for the first couple of days or even weeks. A fitting punishment for my crimes maybe?

THE biggest complaint about the EVE UI, according to our surveys, is the number of windows needed to accomplish tasks. We identified the inventory as being one of the biggest violator and that's why we went on this journey (not because we like to spend Sunday afternoons on the EVE forums, lovely as they are, mind you!). A lot of things have changed in the world of user interfaces during the last 10 years, and I think it's safe to say that a game shipping with the old EVE inventory system EVE today would receive mixed reviews.

The old system had been brewing out in the wild for 9 years, but the new one for less than a week, so obviously it has not received the same amount of updates and fixes. We are, and will be working hard to make sure that no matter your profession in EVE, you will have an equally or faster way of doing what you need to do.

I beg you to honestly give the new system a try. If you still don't like it and you aren't able to find an equally good or better work flow for your tasks, tell us why. Many of you have already done so, and we will are already acting on that feedback, but keep it coming. Telling us that it sucks won't help anyone, and I must stretch what has already been stated that reverting the entire thing is not an option (It's also as good as technically impossible). Making it optional is also not optional (confusingly enough) as it would require us to maintain two systems side by side which would cause an exponential increase in code and interface complexity if we were to make a habit of it. It's not as simple or as good of an idea as it might seem at first.

One of the hardest part of EVE is dealing with the UI and we are constantly being asked to change it. When we do, people without exceptions ask for the old one back. Doing both is obviously impossible. There is still work to be done and work we shall.


Words fail me. I'm honestly at a complete loss at what to say in reply to this. I was expecting a reasoned rational for the changes, instead we get another 'I'm right and your wrong' from one of the dynamic duo.

Firstly I want numbers boy. The biggest complaint was the number of windows at anytime? I've played this game for three years and been socially active on the forums, traveled to Fanfest and London meets and I have never, EVER heard anyone make this complaint. So if your're going to use that as an excuse for your poor performance I want the numbers of complaints about the UI, the number of the complaints about the numbers of windows and I want them as a percentage of the total number of complaints about EVE. It that percentage is less than 30 percent, all that should tell anyone with an intelligence greater than a used teabag is that 70 percent of people were happy with the old UI and it should be low on your list of priorities.

Your claiming that feedback and suggestions were acted upon in Sisi? Sorry I was there, and that frankly is a bare faced lie. If you had truely listened, acted and followed through the proof of that would be that your precious Unifubared Inventory would still be on Sisi getting debugged. So your either lying or so far removed from reality that I'd worry about giving you a pair of scissors.

Your begging us to give it a try???!!!! What in the hell do you think we've doing for 5 weeks???!!!!!! This amount of rage about your deeply, deeply flawed concept doesn't come from people who don't like change it's coming from people who have tried this muddled mess and guess what? WE DON'T LIKE IT!! Hate it in fact. No amount of trying it is going to alter that fact. The game is virtually unplayable using it. Or perhaps I should say virtually unplayable and still enjoy it.

I'm not going to tell how to fix it. If you haven't figured out how to from all we've said here, the Sisi forums and the complaints then you shouldn't be working in this job.

You are still living this dream world, where if you build it they will come Optimal. After everything that has been pointed out about the failings of this misguided adventure, you're still defending your Unifubared Inventory like a petulant 5 year old.

Now allow to Soundwave to continue to try and fix the mess you and Arrow made. We prefer talking to grown-up here.


THIS IS THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH!!!
49125
Growing Old Disgracefully
#511 - 2012-05-30 05:20:31 UTC
CCPO "If you still don't like it and you aren't able to find an equally good or better work flow for your tasks, tell us why."

Because you changed a functional system to a non functional, laggy as hell one.

.

Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#512 - 2012-05-30 05:25:01 UTC
few things that are broken:

- not persistent filters - when i type "scourge" in text box above inventory to see my missiles and than change container (change division of hangar for example) filter resets itself
- filter not working when you are too fast - when opening inventory while the "loading" indicators are still rotating i type Tengu to get into my ship (assuming i just opened SMA), but when loading end not only my filter RESETS (text box cleared) but also filter STOPS WORKING (typing does not filter anything)
- open inventory in stations CANT BE CTR+CLICKED - cant open multiple windows easly (i have to ctr+click in that horrible tree view)
- when CTR+CLICK to get my corporate hangar opened in separate window i cant change division tabs unless i open full interface


disasteur
Tellcomtec Industries.
#513 - 2012-05-30 05:38:43 UTC
so where is the promise to restore as much as possible?

i logged in today and its still the same crap and your responses only show your fixing instead of restoring
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#514 - 2012-05-30 05:48:11 UTC
ZaBob wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
I really to hope you'll watch this CCP_Optimal. I put a good amount of work into it, and I've never recorded my voice before for anything.

Just something I put together for more effective feedback. I hope you find it useful.
http://youtu.be/HcG5Ha5wAFY


Sheer genius!

Not half so much for accurately capturing what's needed, as leveraging Windows 7 to make such a powerful demonstration.

The use of Windows 7 as a metaphor even makes a very strong case for WHY this is what's needed. Not just the familiarity factor (although that's real), but because Windows 7's functionality has evolved from a long history of experience with similar needs.

It's also worth noting that very similar functionality is found in MacOS and various Linux file managers.


Thanks mate : D

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#515 - 2012-05-30 05:51:48 UTC
Double clicking sometimg should always open a new separate window, such as a wreck, can or your ship in the hangar... this is useful for when you want to move items....

Also, last I checked, you couldn't double click your ship anymore to open cargo

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Avraham Avinu
Children of Noah
#516 - 2012-05-30 05:53:45 UTC
This is a great example of how the dev team should interact with the community on things that matter to us. Understanding the problem, iterating on the solution and being honest.
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#517 - 2012-05-30 05:54:47 UTC
Couple of ideas:

- add a "BACK" button (ala web browser) to jump back to the previously visited "folder" in the tree view.
- add a bar with some standard buttons (hangar, active ship cargohold , active ship drone bay, etc.) and grey them out when not applicable. This will ease the pain of visiting the most common places over and over again.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#518 - 2012-05-30 05:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Yonis Kador
Because of work, it's taken me until now to play a bit with the new patch and, for my game, not much has changed. I noticed a slight speed increase in populating windows - but even in a station with only 15 or so ships I had to painstakingly watch each one populate from a blank thumbnail to a ship icon one. at. a. time.

I don't even know what to say anymore.

The forums are so filled with rage that if I were a dev, I wouldn't even know what to make of all that except that people are genuinely unhappy - this guy included. I see new posters saying they like the UI without any clue why that is and other new faces offering nothing but "get used to it" and "what's your problem" posts. None of which were particularly helpful or enlightening.

Switching ships still requires scrolling, finding the correct hangar division still requires scrolling - I'm so tired of squinting and scrolling. I only had time to mission and salvage - and to that end, really nothing's changed. Unless you're happy "looting all" your workflow is still increased. Keyboard shortcuts aren't usually part of my playstyle and I've never "looted all." I've always been selective about what I take and leave in wrecks. It's just not even an option anymore. Take it all or navigate the tree.

Did I mention how much I despise that tree yet today? No? Well let me state it again. Having all hangars and bays represented as file divisions on a windows-like tree in no way enhances "my" EVE experience. It turns what used to be parts of the station and unique, separate locations into file representations on an operating system. Files on a tree. That's it. And I hate that. I wish I had never seen the tree and I wish I could go without seeing it ever again.

It should be minimized by default.

1.) Restore one-click functionality from static buttons on the neocom for the station hangar, ship hangar, and corp hangar - and have them all open in new windows.

2.) Have wrecks and cans open in new windows.

3.) Make these windows persistent between sessions.

4.) And restore the lost right-click functionality for drone bays, fuel bays etc.


(Just make opening source and destination scroll-free, one-click operations again (like they were pre-Inferno) to re-enable the multi-windowed drag and drop playstyle so many are asking to see returned to the game.)

For a great many players, one window will not suffice. I happily agree that the new UI is technically superior to the old interface, but it is not more efficient, and it is currently incompatible with a huge swath of preexisting playstyles. It was based on a false premise. Less, in this case, is clearly not more. Players still want, need, and are using the same multi-windowed configurations they employed before, except now you've given them an interface specifically designed to make this task more difficult. Restore lost functionality and empower players again with playstyle options.

For my part, rage is quickly being replaced by apathy. I'm still here but even I'm not sure how many weeks I can wait around for patches hoping that the next one might be helpful. I love this game. It is a beautiful immersive feat of programming and it's something all of CCP should be proud of. But at the moment, like some darling tart alluded to in another thread, it's like a stick in the a**. And not only did CCP insert said stick, but instead of removing it, we're told to wait and get comfortable while the stick is adjusted, to get used to the stick, or to quit complaining about the stick being there.

None of which are really great choices.

Maybe tomorrow I'll be more enthused to play clickageddon and maybe then I'll mind the stick less, but tonight it's definately got me down.

Yonis Kador
Ytamii Arval
#519 - 2012-05-30 05:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ytamii Arval
It is difficult to give 'constructive feedback' about something so utterly painful to use that it feels like it's breaking the game. And it gets worse each day that I 'just give it a chance.' Today, I'm mining--in between spates of screaming obscenities at my monitor. And mining is a pleasure compared to looting. And looting is a pleasure compared to fitting. Worse each day.

I detailed my criticisms weeks ago on the test forum, and won't repeat what you chose to ignore. No, I can't imagine any adequate fix other than creating a carbon copy of the previous UI. Consider that my constructive feedback: what I need is precisely the functionality which was removed. BTW, the Tuesday fixes that were supposed to speed it up made it greatly slower.

You want more detailed critique to ignore? Here ya go: I cannot check the filter checkboxes, I mean the ones like Ammunition, Ore and Materials. I click on the box and nothing happens; click again, nothing happens, etc. In order to check a box, I first have to close and then re-open the entire filter panel, then check a box, and a checkmark finally shows up, the green light comes on...and nothing else happens. There's no change in what's displayed in either the tree or the current container. Honestly, I've no idea what those filters are supposed to do, but I assume they're supposed to do something.

But, ignore that because I've no desire to use filters. The old UI didn't need that, and any UI that does I will always consider more pain than it's worth. Same goes for keyboard shortcuts. Sad to hear we can't get the old, functional UI back. But no problem; I'll just stop paying for my account until we have a UI with the old functionality duplicated.
General Freight
GIRLFRIEND SURF TEAM
#520 - 2012-05-30 05:58:02 UTC
Hey guys, seriously, thank you for listening about the lag to open and the looting thing. Much better. These were my issues because they are the ones that most affected me. Well, that and the POS thing, but I've read what you're planning and I like it.

If this will really get rid of botters and scripters, I will put up with a lot.