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Warfare & Tactics

 
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More FW changes on SiSi

First post
Author
SigmaPi
Space Men
#361 - 2012-05-07 12:07:38 UTC
I'd rather just shoot them myself, tbh.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#362 - 2012-05-07 12:18:05 UTC
Hrett wrote:
I dont agree with all of this (no defensive plexing? Why?) but the vast majority of these are long overdue.

Simply put, because it is/should be easier to bolt a door than to break it down .. crude analogy perhaps, but fairly accurate.

Also based on assumption that people will act as they have done for years and not actually do much of anything unless critical mass is achieved. In plexing terms (after the 3-5x change is added) that means blobbing the crap out of a system for a few hours and then leaving an alt force/skeleton crew to prevent too much defensive work from succeeding .. almost exact replica of null sov "fights" back in the day (still get ticks thinking of all the damn pos mods I repped up *shudder*).
The only way to discourage the urge to blob is to neuter its effectiveness .. with timers being 'equal' it is possible (and most often used) to have a single semi-mobile blob that comes in to swat anyone interfering with the timer babysitters. Were timers to be 'skewed' with defensive ones taking only 1/5th or less time, the attacked HAS to be 'in force' in each and every plex which removes the blob from the equation quite nicely I should think

Attacking sovereign space should require constant pressure and vigil. It was semi-present at the height of the post-DT plexing era when several systems were held in enemy space .. take a plex anywhere and it could pop elsewhere, was a horror if occupancy was spread out all over the place Smile.
IbanezLaney wrote:
Personally I'm looking forward to the changes....

Mission runners will only leave if they have no alternative to make the LP. If NPC balance/Plex mechanics are not addressed there is a high probability that most of them will swap bombers for stabbed interceptors and get LP from plexes instead.
If you were around back when it occurred to people that raising militia rank/standing was a fast track to maxed faction standing and the free Navy BPCs it yielded .. goddamn stabbed mothers were all over the damn place Evil
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#363 - 2012-05-07 12:22:21 UTC
Sov reset would really push the bounds of stupidity, 2 of the largest and arguably most active alliances in minmatar FW base in 'amarr systems', I wouldn't want to gamble on them rejoining FW after they are forced to drop because they cant get their stuff.

Be impressive to finally see FW get some attention and instead of brining in anyone new it just gets most of the active player base to quit.
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#364 - 2012-05-07 12:50:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Smacker
Can a CCP dev please answer if they planning on implementing the lockouts with the rewards?

Yes, this is a loaded question.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.

Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#365 - 2012-05-07 13:01:01 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Sov reset would really push the bounds of stupidity, 2 of the largest and arguably most active alliances in minmatar FW base in 'amarr systems', I wouldn't want to gamble on them rejoining FW after they are forced to drop because they cant get their stuff.

Be impressive to finally see FW get some attention and instead of brining in anyone new it just gets most of the active player base to quit.

So would you rather have a month's warning or a blob come and flip your system a few hours before the patch? And if the latter happened would those alliances drop from FW to get their stuff?

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#366 - 2012-05-07 13:01:43 UTC
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:
Jimmy Nickson wrote:
Problem, atleast half amarr miltia is -5 or below.


And that's supposed to be the fault of the game designers?

So as I understand it then, the people whining have made a choice to go -5 by killing non-wts and now don't want to pay any penalties for it? Fascinating.



OK its our "fault" that we like to pvp and you can't get enough of it in low sec without going gcc.

But we are at least asking ccp to change the mechanics so that there will be more frequent pvp.

What has happened to player proposals like Jack Dent's?

They are lost in ccp's mad rush to make fw like null sec.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cpt Cosmic
Perkone
Caldari State
#367 - 2012-05-07 13:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Cosmic
Silence iKillYouu wrote:
Cpt Cosmic wrote:
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


u mad? maybe you can just leave the forum for people that have something meaningful to say. we dont need troll scum like you here.

Cearain wrote:
They are lost in ccp's mad rush to make fw like null sec.

cant wait to see alot of people leaving FW because they have to haul their stuff out of low sec and never bothering with it again Big smile lowsec wasteland here I come Roll
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#368 - 2012-05-07 13:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Dirk Smacker wrote:
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Sov reset would really push the bounds of stupidity, 2 of the largest and arguably most active alliances in minmatar FW base in 'amarr systems', I wouldn't want to gamble on them rejoining FW after they are forced to drop because they cant get their stuff.

Be impressive to finally see FW get some attention and instead of brining in anyone new it just gets most of the active player base to quit.

So would you rather have a month's warning or a blob come and flip your system a few hours before the patch? And if the latter happened would those alliances drop from FW to get their stuff?



There has been plenty time for planning leading up to the patch, I'd rather it came down to the depth of planning and giving people a chance to try and hold systems than just CCP saying 'no'.

Even a small force can defend a system if they are willing to use slightly grey tactics, less of a pain than moving 50 odd ships per pilot. Also a reset is basically saying 'you know what you have been fighting over for the last few years? yeah that was all for nothing, absolutely nothing, now that we are adding consequences to what you do we are undoing all that.'


At the end of the day people with fewer systems will always argue for a reset and people with more will always argue against it. I'm sure plenty of people will quit FW either way its just up to CCP to decide which way it will be.
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#369 - 2012-05-07 13:37:19 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Also a reset is basically saying 'you know what you have been fighting over for the last few years? yeah that was all for nothing, absolutely nothing, now that we are adding consequences to what you do we are undoing all that.'

We already realize that we are fighting for nothing. Most people are in FW for the cheap LP store and the free wardec. Occupancy means absolutely nothing. If they are going to add such drastic changes to FW they need to do it from a fresh start. A reset is the only way to do something so drastic. Then we can start anew where lack of action means you lose out on your nice things.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#370 - 2012-05-07 13:40:28 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
Sov reset would really push the bounds of stupidity, 2 of the largest and arguably most active alliances in minmatar FW base in 'amarr systems', I wouldn't want to gamble on them rejoining FW after they are forced to drop because they cant get their stuff.

Be impressive to finally see FW get some attention and instead of brining in anyone new it just gets most of the active player base to quit.



Well we have 2 weeks before inferno hits and they still haven't told us whether they will do a reset or not.

Should players do plexes now or is it time completely wasted?

I tend to agree that a reset would be a slap to people have done plexing for the last few years - especially if ccp has any plans to do station lock outs on may 22nd or any time in the future.





Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#371 - 2012-05-07 13:41:41 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
...Even a small force can defend a system if they are willing to use slightly grey tactics, less of a pain than moving 50 odd ships per pilot. Also a reset is basically saying 'you know what you have been fighting over for the last few years?....

The Amarr/Shakorite front has been pretty much static for the entire duration. Been a few weeks/months here and there with pockets being taken and retaken so on the whole we have already fought for nothing .. as trench wars goes it has been pretty much on par.

NB: Since I haven't seen you in space I can only assume you are "new", so consider it an FYI .. ask around if you don't believe a dirty loyalist Smile
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#372 - 2012-05-07 13:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Smacker
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:

There has been plenty time for planning leading up to the patch, I'd rather it came down to the depth of planning and giving people a chance to try and hold systems than just CCP saying 'no'.

Plenty of time planning using a plexing system that offers no tangible reward and too easy to take in short if you have the numbers when your opponents sleep.

Quote:
Even a small force can defend a system if they are willing to use slightly grey tactics, less of a pain than moving 50 odd ships per pilot. Also a reset is basically saying 'you know what you have been fighting over for the last few years? yeah that was all for nothing, absolutely nothing, now that we are adding consequences to what you do we are undoing all that.'

A small force cannot defend a system 24/7. We saw that yesterday in Rakapas. I don't think it had been contested more than a few times in weeks. Last night, during Cal militia's slow time, Gallente's worked plexes and took it. There's a very good chance we'll get it back, but if that were the day before the patch, there would be little to no chance of getting it back.

IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
At the end of the day people with fewer systems will always argue for a reset and people with more will always argue against it. I'm sure plenty of people will quit FW either way its just up to CCP to decide which way it will be.

I ask you again: Several weeks of warning or several hours?

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#373 - 2012-05-07 13:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
SigmaPi wrote:
Not that I don't agree with you on this point, but there are ways of dealing with it. You could put up a staging pos in the system you're attacking with a ship maintenance array - each corp or alliance just needs a small to get it done. I think it brings some much needed logistical considerations to a fairly easy place to live, and I like that about the system.


Siggy is absolutely right. Regardless of what everyone likes or doesn't like about the changes on the table, as long as there are capsuleers proposing creative solutions to the challenges presented before the Faction Warfare community, CCP has little incentive to change their course and cater to those that feel that one change or another makes things "impossible" or "hopeless".




Alaekessa wrote:
Shalee Lianne wrote:
Amarrian Slavetrader, it would be much more productive to post your insight on your main character instead of a trolling alt.

Don't blame militia for being 'pirate'. Do we have some? Sure. But some of us wouldn't be negative if we didn't have to take sec standings and GCC for shooting neutral alts of the enemies.


Idea: Shoot neutral alts of the enemies with your own neutral alts?

I know, that's some real revolutionary thinking there. I can fully understand why you didn't have that thought on your own, I mean you did choose to be Amarr after all.



Hans

Have you heard enough "creative solutions" people can use to adapt to this null sec lite system yet?

First we have the suggestion that if you are outnumbered you should just put up a pos in enemy space.

Now this: Let's train pvp alts that can be used to kill neutrals, so our main fw pvp characters can dock in high sec.

Hopefully even you can see this is going nowhere.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#374 - 2012-05-07 13:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Hrett wrote:
I dont agree with all of this (no defensive plexing? Why?) but the vast majority of these are long overdue.

Simply put, because it is/should be easier to bolt a door than to break it down .. crude analogy perhaps, but fairly accurate.

Also based on assumption that people will act as they have done for years and not actually do much of anything unless critical mass is achieved. In plexing terms (after the 3-5x change is added) that means blobbing the crap out of a system for a few hours and then leaving an alt force/skeleton crew to prevent too much defensive work from succeeding .. almost exact replica of null sov "fights" back in the day (still get ticks thinking of all the damn pos mods I repped up *shudder*).
The only way to discourage the urge to blob is to neuter its effectiveness .. with timers being 'equal' it is possible (and most often used) to have a single semi-mobile blob that comes in to swat anyone interfering with the timer babysitters. Were timers to be 'skewed' with defensive ones taking only 1/5th or less time, the attacked HAS to be 'in force' in each and every plex which removes the blob from the equation quite nicely I should think

Attacking sovereign space should require constant pressure and vigil. It was semi-present at the height of the post-DT plexing era when several systems were held in enemy space .. take a plex anywhere and it could pop elsewhere, was a horror if occupancy was spread out all over the place Smile.
IbanezLaney wrote:
Personally I'm looking forward to the changes....

Mission runners will only leave if they have no alternative to make the LP. If NPC balance/Plex mechanics are not addressed there is a high probability that most of them will swap bombers for stabbed interceptors and get LP from plexes instead.
If you were around back when it occurred to people that raising militia rank/standing was a fast track to maxed faction standing and the free Navy BPCs it yielded .. goddamn stabbed mothers were all over the damn place Evil


I dont agree on the defensive plexing thing - I see the kind of fights you describe now.

I do think they should give LP for defensive plexing once a system goes contested. Otherwise people will only fight for station systems...

And I wish they would make an announcement on the reset thing. I have 33 combat ships in Nenn, and a host of others spred around. I need to get busy moving.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#375 - 2012-05-07 13:57:40 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
NB: Since I haven't seen you in space I can only assume you are "new", so consider it an FYI .. ask around if you don't believe a dirty loyalist Smile


How kind. Look at your most recent loss mail.


Well I am pretty new to Mini (1 year) I played FW from patch day with a few breaks.


FW is a generally cyclic process without one side having a huge advantage it swings back and forth, hence keeping a roughly stable front, with only a few exceptions.

A reset will in all likelihood result in Late Night and Iron Oxide rage-quitting FW which will probably disrupt that balance. No one side in milita wants to completely crush their opponent.
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#376 - 2012-05-07 13:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Smacker
Here's a solution to the reset question:

Have a grace period until the lockouts go into effect. Give time to draw people into FW for the rewards and work within the new framework where it will be easier to defend. Those plexing under the "easier" mechanic now will still get systems that are easier to defend, but those who live in low sec and will likely easily hold their home systems after the changes won't have to worry about being locked out from enemies using the easier mechanic. If they can't take and hold their homes during the grace period, it wasn't really their home to begin with.

I would go with a grace period of at least a month.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.

Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
Plexodus
#377 - 2012-05-07 14:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Snake
It is funny how this thread is overlooked by the ccp.....in next few weeks i expect some devblog bullshit and then ccp will forget on fw after sov debacle.

Well so far so good my sec status was burning anyway so it is time to run some alt driven plexes and join some of my russian buddies;)



Or ccp will catch thier nose in a moment two hours before patch and will include the sov reset .... Because the ccp fw prick looks like the guy who knows what he is doing. And in that moment i will be lauging all weeks after the patch because gals and minnies willbe locked in their stations forever.

Ok i think it is time to create fw shadow zone to ignore ccps idiocy and have some fun.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#378 - 2012-05-07 14:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Dirk Smacker wrote:
Here's a solution to the reset question:

Have a grace period until the lockouts go into effect. Give time to draw people into FW for the rewards and work within the new framework where it will be easier to defend. Those plexing under the "easier" mechanic now will still get systems that are easier to defend, but those who live in low sec and will likely easily hold their home systems after the changes won't have to worry about being locked out from enemies using the easier mechanic. If they can't take and hold their homes during the grace period, it wasn't really their home to begin with.

I would go with a grace period of at least a month.



So on your proposal would ccp reset after a grace period or not?

I really think the fact that many of the players are so concerned about a reset just proves that ccp is making faction war occupancy more of grind instead of more fun. If they were making it so the plexing involved more fun quality pvp then no one would care whether there was a reset or not.

I know I would be looking forward to plexing and getting tons of great pvp if I had thought that is what there changes would accomplish.

Instead, the lock outs will make faction war more of a hassle and the long times to flip systems will make plexing even a longer grind. This is why a system reset is such a hot topic to begin with.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#379 - 2012-05-07 14:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Smacker
Cearain wrote:
[quote=Dirk Smacker]
So on your proposal would ccp reset after a grace period or not?

No. That would negate the purpose of the grace period.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#380 - 2012-05-07 14:46:04 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
It is funny how this thread is overlooked by the ccp.....in next few weeks i expect some devblog bullshit and then ccp will forget on fw after sov debacle.

Well so far so good my sec status was burning anyway so it is time to run some alt driven plexes and join some of my russian buddies;)



Or ccp will catch thier nose in a moment two hours before patch and will include the sov reset .... Because the ccp fw prick looks like the guy who knows what he is doing. And in that moment i will be lauging all weeks after the patch because gals and minnies willbe locked in their stations forever.

Ok i think it is time to create fw shadow zone to ignore ccps idiocy and have some fun.


I think ccp is trying to implement some bad ideas here. However I am betting they are not putting out a dev blog because they are in fact reading to see if there are good reasons to change the system.

I think there have been allot of good reasons posted why the station lock out will not be good for faction war and I think ccp will listen.

I think once that horrible lock out idea is jettisoned then they can work on faction war through iterations so that many of the other issues can be sorted out over time.

That is becoming a pretty obvious course for anyone who is reasonably listening to the feedback. And I think ccp is reasonable and they are listening.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815