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Warfare & Tactics

 
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More FW changes on SiSi

First post
Author
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#281 - 2012-05-06 06:22:18 UTC
SigmaPi wrote:
the amarr are perfectly capable of getting a blob together and doing anything they want. the difference is that we've stuck with (and worked) the grind much harder than them. ..

This is a troll, surely. Have you tried plexing as one of the good guys, aka. Amarr? Where you can offensive plex with single frigs we need entire bloody fleets to counter the TP/Missile spam of the Mime NPCs in order to keep same speed as you lot.

At any rate, the massive imbalances in the current (and coming) system has turned most of Amarr off the entire thing which is why there hasn't been much of anything going on since the infini-plex change. What is the point of dedicating 200+ man hours (small gang for ~7 hrs) to flip a system when the enemy can re-flip it with 21 man hours (3 frigs for ~7 hrs)?

Not resetting is like allowing a single person to use a bicycle for a marathon and then keeping his world shattering record for all time .. and yes, the difference in "ease of plexing" is that pronounced.

Solution to defence LP issue:
Make it sliding scale, the closer one is to ones desired outcome (decontest for defence, vulnerable/flip for offence) the fewer LP one gets.
For Defense: Doing the rounds and resetting lightly contested systems would be worth it but barely, the big payout would be in systems near flipping where enemy is strongest (only if major changes to balance is made though).
For Offense: Big carrot is the flip which is also to yield LP (anyone else having issues with the LP flood they are planning?), so the decreasing ticks for plexes should act as motivation for the "last push" (synergy with defence above).

(For CCP) Hoping for answers to following in blogs:
- Are we still going to grind static EHP for flips by the way, or will it be 'automatic' once VP pool overflows?
- Are we going to have some indicator other than the highly inaccurate blob on map as to status of VP pool?
- Are missions getting nerfed to eradicate the perpetual bomber free-loaders .. they are going to be like locusts, swarming between militias that are doing well and thus get increased payouts.
- Are navy NPC's getting balanced as promised, or will it be at a later date?
- Will map on Amarr/Shakorite front be tweaked to 'even things out' as was done with addition of Black Rise at launch?
- Will plex access restrictions be tweaked to disallow pirate hulls which are punching far above their weightclass?
- With retraction of discount on LP for navy hulls, will they be made exclusive to FW or do we still have to compete with the high-sec bots (even if there is a person, repetition dulls the mind turning him/her into a bot so Hah!)?

Probably more, but Civ4 beckons.
Deen Wispa
The Mjolnir Bloc
Shadow Cartel
#282 - 2012-05-06 06:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
CCP- By implementing docking restrictions, you are also making it very very tough for people to run missions. I won't say impossible but this becomes a major challenge.

People receive damage to their ships and they will need to dock up in enemy territory in order to repair the damage. But now this isn't possible due to docking restrictions. This is especially tough on the newbies. Yet one more way of making FW less accessible.

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

Andiedeath
Kenshin.
DARKNESS.
#283 - 2012-05-06 06:41:00 UTC
SigmaPi wrote:
the amarr are perfectly capable of getting a blob together and doing anything they want. the difference is that we've stuck with (and worked) the grind much harder than them. ..


Very True. Although again December/January I seem to remember the Amarr were that focused and the Minmatar were getting completed slaughtered. At one stage I believe they had everything upto Amamake and some over near Hek area... What happened???? Oh thats right we got our act together. :P

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
This is a troll, surely. Have you tried plexing as one of the good guys, aka. Amarr? Where you can offensive plex with single frigs we need entire bloody fleets to counter the TP/Missile spam of the Mime NPCs in order to keep same speed as you lot.


Nope not a troll and completely true, but out of interest I'm going to set up and try it in an alt and let you know. If its unbalanced then ccp should fix by rebalancing the NPCs, if not... well... no more needed to be said.

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#284 - 2012-05-06 07:26:49 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
Oh thats right we got our act together. :P

Yeah, there was a brief spurt of activity when infini-plex changes came around, but it died out when people were reminded of the imbalance .. ie. Mimes needing only 10-15% effort to undo whatever is done.
Andiedeath wrote:
Nope not a troll and completely true, but out of interest I'm going to set up and try it in an alt and let you know. If its unbalanced then ccp should fix by rebalancing the NPCs, if not... well... no more needed to be said.

You could just ask one of the old timers around your parts, but by all means test it .. the awakening will be all the more abrupt. Looking forward to seeing you under the "Balance FW!" banners Big smile
Damar Rocarion
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#285 - 2012-05-06 07:35:49 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
Nope not a troll and completely true, but out of interest I'm going to set up and try it in an alt and let you know. If its unbalanced then ccp should fix by rebalancing the NPCs, if not... well... no more needed to be said.


Just to be blunt, I would rather have full caldari minor plex spawn on my side in battle than full amarr major plex spawn. That might be saying something. Main issue with amarr npcs is that they have hard time hitting a broadside of a barn when parked inside a said barn. If you web and paint a cruiser sized target hull, they might hit with some regularity if within 20-30km. Otherwise......
Ahazu Sagam
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#286 - 2012-05-06 07:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahazu Sagam
A reset for Amarr-Mini-FW space (only there) is necessary /possible because CCP messed up there:

I) The Amarr-Mini--FW zone has 70 systems. Amarr has sov in 30 systems. Minis have sov in 40 systems, thats are 33% more systems. No big deal; no one complained about it because it was inconsiderable.

II) The current mechanic makes it harder to occupy a system with enemy sov. Thats great and reasonable and i think everybody agrees that it a good mechanic.

III) CCP wants to give you a bonus based on the number off systems your faction holds (no one actually confirmed that iirc). Great, i think everyone loves it.

Some people might now ask, "where is your problem?" and some might have already noticed it by reading I) and II). For those who haven't: Its harder for Amarr milita to controll 50% (35 systems) of the FW zone, and this has nothing to do with numbers, npcs, plex mechanics, how 1337 every body is and so on. And this is an issue when CCP does III).

BTW I do not want that minis lose all thier amarr systems now , but CCP cant ignore this problem.


[edit]: Setting post patch sov to current sov should be a good deal for minis, they captured 10 systems and will be than 10 systems ahead.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#287 - 2012-05-06 08:10:32 UTC
You guys can get over the idea of Sov resets.. CCP has never done it for null sec and they won't do it for FW. It's almost certainly not gonna happen, so if you want your systems back you need to get out there and take them back before the update.

As far as the LP boost into the game it's being countered by almost an absurd price hike on all the Faction ships. If you look on SISI the Faction ships in the FW LP store have had the require LP cost multiplied by 4.

Hookbill for example is 40k LP

Navy Scorp is 600k LP

Navy Raven is 1 million LP


Jimmy Nickson
The Lucky Star
#288 - 2012-05-06 10:01:13 UTC
Station lockouts come to TQ = CCP killed amarr militia

Many corps will leave because minmatar plex with way more numbers than us etc...

Also majority of the amarr populous is lacking they're on holidays or just not logging in so hardly any resistance. Not to mentchin any active players are not consistant players they're casual players. This basicly means all people who minmatar see as an opossing fleet on from will basicly drop out of fw because they can't use their ships minmatar will no longer have anybody to fight, they will just end up camping high-sec gates waiting for noobs to come and all the noobs will rage and leave so no amarr fw etc.... I know several corps who have already stated they will drop amarr fw if station lockouts come to TQ because of the reason amarr can't compete atm.
Fire ze missiles!
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#289 - 2012-05-06 11:00:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Silence iKillYouu
This is going to be so funny.

Now next time we take your system your all doomed!!!

ANNNND WE GET PAID TO KILL YOU ALL!!!
HAHAHAH YES!!!!

iLaw we will sell u huola back for 50bill

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.

Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
#290 - 2012-05-06 14:43:34 UTC
Jimmy Nickson wrote:
Station lockouts come to TQ = CCP killed amarr militia

Many corps will leave because minmatar plex with way more numbers than us etc...

Also majority of the amarr populous is lacking they're on holidays or just not logging in so hardly any resistance. Not to mentchin any active players are not consistant players they're casual players. This basicly means all people who minmatar see as an opossing fleet on from will basicly drop out of fw because they can't use their ships minmatar will no longer have anybody to fight, they will just end up camping high-sec gates waiting for noobs to come and all the noobs will rage and leave so no amarr fw etc.... I know several corps who have already stated they will drop amarr fw if station lockouts come to TQ because of the reason amarr can't compete atm.


Yay moar tears....
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#291 - 2012-05-06 15:45:32 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
You guys can get over the idea of Sov resets.. CCP has never done it for null sec and they won't do it for FW. It's almost certainly not gonna happen, so if you want your systems back you need to get out there and take them back before the update.

As far as the LP boost into the game it's being countered by almost an absurd price hike on all the Faction ships. If you look on SISI the Faction ships in the FW LP store have had the require LP cost multiplied by 4.

Hookbill for example is 40k LP

Navy Scorp is 600k LP

Navy Raven is 1 million LP



This assumption about LP store prices is a perfect example of why everyone should be waiting for CCP's final confirmation and explanation of all the changes in context with one another. They've already said they'll have a dev blog out this week, I highly recommend people wait until they know what the situation is before they just assume what they see on SiSi is static.

Go back and watch the Fan Fest presentation. It was there that the developers explained that the LP store prices are supposed to be on a sliding scale, according to victory conditions for ones faction. Winning militias are supposed to be getting discounts in the LP store, meaning you'd pay less for your faction gear than ever before. Losing factions would see their LP prices soar.

This way, there is always an incentive for the team that is behind to fight back, as every FW pilot will want to be cashing out their LP when it is worth the most isk. You might earn a ton while your faction is ahead, and than have it be worth less if you let the enemy beat you, providing an incentive to gold on to your LP, fight back, and than cash it out at peak value again.

Now, I have no idea what this means in terms of SiSi numbers, I suspect that without an actual war being fought and systems being reinforced, everyone is merely seeing the worst case scenario as far as the pricing scheme. But that is exactly why I suggest just waiting to see what CCP confirms this coming week, and than make your evaluations of the new system.

Everyone right now is so emotionally rooted in how this affects them in the short term, and forgetting that the current FW community is but a fraction of those that have come and gone. Many non-FW pilots will be interested in trying the new system as now everything has actual meaning and value, the Sov reset suggestion that everyone is panicking about is as much with respect for pilots that will want to try FW for the first time in years, or the first time ever. They may have little incentive to do so if one faction makes a sprint while taking Sov is incredibly easy, and than lives off the fat of the land that is supposed to be the reward for a system where taking Sov is much more difficult.

CCP should be considering everyone in the game that may want to give this a try, not just us grizzled veterans afraid of change. Starting May 22 with little reason for outsiders to enlist in the faction of their choice because of a frozen, imbalanced state of Sovereignty is not going to encourage the enlistment numbers that is one of primary reason we're working to improve Faction Warfare in the first place.



CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#292 - 2012-05-06 16:25:04 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Starting May 22 with little reason for outsiders to enlist in the faction of their choice because of a frozen, imbalanced state of Sovereignty is not going to encourage the enlistment numbers that is one of primary reason we're working to improve Faction Warfare in the first place.

I respectfully disagree. Sovereignty isn't frozen, and if the new system is going to work, it needs to work when the numbers on each side are both balanced and imbalanced.

Would CCP please re-set 0.0 sov when they finally get around to fixing that broken mechanic?

Also, CCP please consider implementing a sov upgrade that would make it worthwhile to upgrade non-station systems (not that the current upgrades are worth bothering about for systems WITH stations).
Apollo Eros
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2012-05-06 16:25:10 UTC
A couple of things.

CCP has said numerous times that the intention of F.W was to bridge into 0.0.

They have said multiple times they are not happy with current sov systems and it seems like we are going to be the guinea pigs for this.

I am all for trying new things. There have been numerous times friends have said there is no reason to flip systems since it really does not do anything. Well it looks like CCP is giving us a reason to plex.

I do like the ideas of still being able to dock but having increased costs in non friendly systems.

I am personally looking forward to the map filter changes. Oh ya!!

[Triple OG LVL 5 Space Wizard]

Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#294 - 2012-05-06 16:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Fleet Warpsujarento
So those grizzled veterans who are afraid of change, who are too emotionally rooted in the immediate, and who aren't important to you Hans, would they be the same ones who voted you into the CSM?
Almity
Hopscotch
#295 - 2012-05-06 17:00:08 UTC
Silence iKillYouu wrote:
This is going to be so funny.

Now next time we take your system your all doomed!!!

ANNNND WE GET PAID TO KILL YOU ALL!!!
HAHAHAH YES!!!!

iLaw we will sell u huola back for 50bill



Huola is a dump, keep it. If you ever see me living there again by my own free will I give you permission to Bat Phone PL.(P.S. I have a carrier for sale) We also get paid to kill you. And since your lot ever leaves Huola or Kourm I will make SO much more than you.

Last night we fought over Asghed. Well kind of. We fought over a Minor and a Medium plex once the system went vulnerable. Amarr was able to decontest it once but do to RESHIP time we could not hold on to it. In the hopes of controlling the minor we even used carriers to try and resupply us in a timely manner. By the end of the night we sat in a Major Plex with Armor BC and Guardians, The Minmatar hit the Control Bunker with about 20 T3 BC's. They had warped to the Acceleration Gate but decided not to fight. The timer was around two minuets when they finished killing the Control Bunker. Was very close.

When you plex now you need three different ship sizes. When you fight over systems people die, they use over heat, they take damage. This is not 0.0. We don't go in, hit a structure and leave. We have to stay and grind for hours and possibly soon days to flip a system. If we can't dock, resupply, or repair what can we do? Focus on one size plex? Only try to flip systems next to one we own?


Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#296 - 2012-05-06 17:05:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


This assumption about LP store prices is a perfect example of why everyone should be waiting for CCP's final confirmation and explanation of all the changes in context with one another. They've already said they'll have a dev blog out this week, I highly recommend people wait until they know what the situation is before they just assume what they see on SiSi is static.

Go back and watch the Fan Fest presentation. It was there that the developers explained that the LP store prices are supposed to be on a sliding scale, according to victory conditions for ones faction. Winning militias are supposed to be getting discounts in the LP store, meaning you'd pay less for your faction gear than ever before. Losing factions would see their LP prices soar.

This way, there is always an incentive for the team that is behind to fight back, as every FW pilot will want to be cashing out their LP when it is worth the most isk. You might earn a ton while your faction is ahead, and than have it be worth less if you let the enemy beat you, providing an incentive to gold on to your LP, fight back, and than cash it out at peak value again.



yea I saw that with the fan fest videos and pretty much said the same thing anyone else did with half a brain. If the current winning side gets better prices while the losing sides prices get more extreme.. Who the hell is ever going to join the losing side?

The only thing that sort of mechanic will do is cause massive side shifts of all the non hardcore players along with the farmers to the side that makes the most profit. I mean really do you honestly think if I need ISK I'm gonna grind out 600k LP's for a Scorp navy issue if the guys on the other side are getting their Dommi Navy Issues for 150k lp or less?

Hell half of Gal Militia has their mission farming alts in Caldari because they can't seem to figure out how to run their own missions by placing ECCM mods on their ships. You don't think if they end up with some massive ISK advantage that we wont do the same? That or leave FW all together and make our ISK else where.

I mean really do you think I'm gonna pay 1 million LP for a Navy Raven when I can just go pick up a few LVL V's and get them for 600k at the State War LP store?

LOL hell no I'm just gonna put a noob alt on the other side and farm their plexes when I need ISk or leave all together if it becomes impossible to support my PVP with out crazy amounts of grind. That's all anyone with half a brain would do as well. That or I'd just swicth my ISK source to something else and move on. We aren't here to "grind" and that includes SOV. Most of us are here because we can make decent ISK and get PVP with out all the issues null sec politics or the small corp logistical nightmares of living in deep null.

Anyway I think it's irrelevant as I see no proof of any sort of sliding LP scale on SISI for the Stores. as Gal MIlitia stores have same costs as Caldari.
SigmaPi
Space Men
#297 - 2012-05-06 17:16:58 UTC
Almity wrote:

When you plex now you need three different ship sizes. When you fight over systems people die, they use over heat, they take damage. This is not 0.0. We don't go in, hit a structure and leave. We have to stay and grind for hours and possibly soon days to flip a system. If we can't dock, resupply, or repair what can we do? Focus on one size plex? Only try to flip systems next to one we own?


Not that I don't agree with you on this point, but there are ways of dealing with it. You could put up a staging pos in the system you're attacking with a ship maintenance array - each corp or alliance just needs a small to get it done. I think it brings some much needed logistical considerations to a fairly easy place to live, and I like that about the system.

As for last night, you guys were welcome to warp in on our fleet at any point, no one was making you sit in a major.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#298 - 2012-05-06 17:23:51 UTC
Almity wrote:
.. If we can't dock, resupply, or repair what can we do? Focus on one size plex? Only try to flip systems next to one we own?

Naah, we set up shop in Kour, Kam and Lamaa .. nice little triangle .. let the mimes take everything else and then make a bazillion LP from offensive plex roams while keeping fighting in those three systems (or while out with carrier).
Since we'd be "losing" the only LP on market would be ours as mission whores are removed from equation (no stations) providing a massive Amarr LP deficit so we can literally write our own cheques by cornering more markets than I can count Big smile
The mimes on the other hand, with no significant offensive plexes available are forced to feed us by defensive plexing or suffer the whines from the locust swarm of mission whores that joined them to get discounts and easy missions.

If CCP insists on using us as guinea pigs for their beloved null-monkeys then I say we game the snot out of whatever we get thus breaking everything they tried doing.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#299 - 2012-05-06 17:24:06 UTC
Almity wrote:

When you plex now you need three different ship sizes. When you fight over systems people die, they use over heat, they take damage. This is not 0.0. We don't go in, hit a structure and leave. We have to stay and grind for hours and possibly soon days to flip a system. If we can't dock, resupply, or repair what can we do? Focus on one size plex? Only try to flip systems next to one we own?
This, plus 40 hour timer will make it very difficult to secure systems that are more than one jump from a station. Give defenders in home systems a huge advantage.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#300 - 2012-05-06 17:24:23 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:

Would CCP please re-set 0.0 sov when they finally get around to fixing that broken mechanic?


Let's be crystal clear about what we're talking about here and cut through some of the hysteria. "Sov reset" is actually a misleading and inaccurate term for what is being discussed.

Huola has always been the sovereign space of the Amarr Empire. Auga has always been the sovereign space of the Minmatar Republic. That has never once been adjusted, modified, or changed, and continuity of this fact into the May 22 expansion would not truly be a "Sov reset". The argument that CCP should reset 0.0 sovereignty is a straw-man, because we're not actually talking about CCP moving sovereignty lines, though that is how everyone is interpreting this.

What CCP proposed at Fan Fest was removing the meaningless occupancy mechanic, and giving capsuleers the ability to fight over actual Sovereignty. Many pilots made an assumption at this point, and planned efforts to reinforce their occupation in enemy sovereign space, despite the fact that CCP was saying they would be removing occupancy entirely. These pilots assumed that CCP would just arbitrarily change occupancy into Sovereignty, which would indeed be a shuffling of who has sovereignty, a forced adjustment akin to fiddling with null sec Sov as you pointed out. Saying that current Sovereignty designations will remain the same following the May 22 is not truly a "Sov reset" and therefore not some radical action akin to what you are suggesting.

The bottom line is that neither CCP nor the CSM can advocate rules or changes that are based upon the actions capsuleers take in anticipation of a package of changes that was never set in stone, and still isn't set in stone. It's a tough pill to swallow for some, but every single patch there is a similar flurry of economic activity, and plenty of pilots have lost billions before speculating on future changes that may or may not come to pass. CCP cannot change that policy now and make Sovereignty adjustments simply because pilots moved into enemy sov space under the assumption it would magically become their own.

We could debate this all day, or we can simply and see what the final package and procedure is going to be when the dev blog comes out this week. Either way, players will have almost two weeks to gird themselves for the coming war and prepare their battle plans.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary