These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

More FW changes on SiSi

First post
Author
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#201 - 2012-05-04 20:14:47 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.

As it stands right now, occupancy is a 6-7 hour exercise, and flips every day all over the place, and is meaningless. It's really difficult to say that the current ownership is something worth protecting, especially since I can guarantee that if they DONT do a global reset of Sov there will be mass plexing as we approach the release date, the factions with the greatest numbers right now will own all the systems, which will then become much more permanent.

I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back.

Edit: Ownership is not meaningless to those of us who have chosen to make it mean something. Sometimes importance isn't measured by gaining an isk advantage. Sometimees it's e-peen. Big smile
Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2012-05-04 20:18:58 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:

Meaning: if we don't fight except in 1-2 systems, we won't have far to jump. Played a lot of RvB, have you?


Missed the point did we? My point is that you won't have to go 10 jumps just to find someone else to pew because they'll be close by. People who are bitching about casual pvp don't have a leg to stand on if you only have to go 2-3 jumps to find someone to shoot. Players today fly dozens of jumps just to find someone to pew, so this entire line of argument is complete bullshit.

Quote:

Meaning: yeah, sure, you've enumerated many actual reasons that the change is dumb, and I've neither assaulted those reasons nor really thought through my single counter to it that you've already attacked --but really, even though I want one thing and you want the opposite of that thing, the issue is that you are trying to bend everyone else to your preference of play. Not me, though! No bending here! No preferences here! My position is completely neutral and your position is radical and strange.


And what reasons are those? That it'll be hard cause you might actually have to care about where you put your stuff and put a little thought into your play instead of just docking up when **** gets hard? Please. All I see is a lot of whining because people want this to be fight club, ignoring the fact that FW population keeps getting smaller and smaller, and we need to inject some meaning into the system so that people actually care enough to fight.

Quote:

No, LP for plexing does that. Station lockout makes people move their ****. Look: station lockout is probably coming, and 90 people in Amarr militia just finished not caring about two systems that just went vulnerable. Actual station lockout - outside of the one system they have all their stuff in, if it's still a lowsec system (why Kamela and not Tuomuta, which is one jump away?) - won't make them care more than imminent station lockout.


LP for plexing seems to only be applying to offensive plexing. So if you actually want people to shoot at, you need some reason for people to defensively plex. If you get locked out of station and can't access your stuff, that's a pretty powerful incentive to stop the enemy from running plexes.

Quote:

No, that's the conversation you want to have. You want to hear people whining that it'll be tooooo haaaaard, because it's a hell of a lot easier to say HTFU than to read and understand and reply to the arguments and scenarios that have been presented to you. Me, I expect station lockout to come, and I know exactly what I'm going to do about it, and the result will be that the alleged point of it will be completely defeated. We'll all adapt, and the post-adaptation world will be worse for this specific feature in the specific ways that we've said, but then FW won't die thanks to everything else about Inferno, and then you can come back and say, hey, what chicken littles those guys were, right? And now everyone set your alarm clocks, because this neutral POS that we'll all get a faction hit for attacking will go out of reinforcement at...


First of all, alarm clock ops are a result of RF timers, not anything inherent in territorial controls. I hate RF timers with a passion, I like the way it is now that you actually have to keep up with things yourself and intervene before the **** hits the fan. Second, no one is going to kick you out of FW if you don't want to participate in territorial warfare. You don't have to base in the front line systems, you don't have to be constantly worried about your stuff being locked out. What you all are bitching about is that you can't do that with every single system in the FW area, which was unrealistic in the first place. You want to be able to do whatever you want in game and have no consequences. To that I say, tough ****. Deal with your own choices, if you want to live near the frontline, deal with the consequences. You won't even be penalized that much for living off the beaten track.

Quote:

Here is a map: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Amarr_VS_Minmatar

Here is another map: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente

Amarr are going be just fine, no matter what happens. Minmatar would be screwed by any turnaround in the war. As for the Caldari/Gallente side...


I'm well familiar with the Caldari/Gallente area thank you very much, there are plenty of enclave systems or high sec systems that either side can base out of if they actually did lose all their systems. As for Minnie space, I'm sure you all will find a way.

I will say that CCP needs to make it so there are diminishing returns for the winning side and increased incentives for the losing side, so that it isn't completely hopeless if one side really does dominate. But I think the result will not nearly be so one sided. A dedicated gang of a few players managed to hold back entire plexing efforts on both sides, numbers are not the be all and end all of occupancy warfare. If some of you actually participated in it, you'd know that, but instead you just ***** and whine cause you might actually have to learn some new mechanics. I am completely unsympathetic.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#203 - 2012-05-04 20:34:21 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back.



I tend to agree with X Gallentius. The only reason I would think they should consider resetting the map is because they are just not correcting known bugs with the plexing mechanic. But that has pretty much always been the case.

Even if they reset the map I am moving my **** out of fw space anyway. I think resetting the map just delays the inevitable where the larger side will quickly dominate. I say the quicker ccp can see the stupidity of this system the better.


However I bet they will reset the map. They want to delay that inevitable conclusion as much as possible.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

BolsterBomb
POS Party
Ember Sands
#204 - 2012-05-04 20:38:43 UTC
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back.



I tend to agree with X Gallentius. The only reason I would think they should consider resetting the map is because they are just not correcting known bugs with the plexing mechanic. But that has pretty much always been the case.

Even if they reset the map I am moving my **** out of fw space anyway. I think resetting the map just delays the inevitable where the larger side will quickly dominate. I say the quicker ccp can see the stupidity of this system the better.


However I bet they will reset the map. They want to delay that inevitable conclusion as much as possible.



Because blob warefare pawns all amirite

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#205 - 2012-05-04 20:40:11 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
Because blob warefare pawns all amirite
Don't hate us because we have more friends. Lol
BolsterBomb
POS Party
Ember Sands
#206 - 2012-05-04 20:42:57 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
Because blob warefare pawns all amirite
Don't hate us because we have more friends. Lol



I thought you were my friend XG

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#207 - 2012-05-04 20:45:28 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back.



I tend to agree with X Gallentius. The only reason I would think they should consider resetting the map is because they are just not correcting known bugs with the plexing mechanic. But that has pretty much always been the case.

Even if they reset the map I am moving my **** out of fw space anyway. I think resetting the map just delays the inevitable where the larger side will quickly dominate. I say the quicker ccp can see the stupidity of this system the better.


However I bet they will reset the map. They want to delay that inevitable conclusion as much as possible.



Because blob warefare pawns all amirite


It will after these changes. Now that I answered your question can you answer the questions I asked you a few posts back?

"You do realize that what you claim is impossible, and nonsensical for me to think, was already done right?

The caldari captured all the systems in their front. They did this even though there was no advantage at all to capping systems! Think about that.

Now they added incentives to cap systems. This will only increase the desire to accomplish this despite the grind.

Now they made it so you can't dock in systems you lose. This will only make it easier to mop up after one side gains an edge.

What change happened that you think helps the side with fewer active pilots? The only one I know of is that you get no lp for doing defensive plexes. Do you get standings? I don't know. But since it is very easy to have an alt run a defensive plex, especially when the enemy can't even dock there, I don't see this as a big deal.

The majority of these changes just gives more incentive for the larger side to continue the grind (lp bonuses) and hurts the underdog from being able to fight back (no docking)

Plus at least in the amarr minmatar front there are allot of bottlenecks. If you take a smaller fleet into systems you can not dock in it will be easy to get caught."

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Asthariye
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#208 - 2012-05-04 20:47:25 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.
I respectfully disagree here. Reset + Lockout = well over half the active Gallente and Minmatar militias screwed. If the opposing forces want those systems, they have a little more time to take them back.


Also agreeing with X Gallentius here. A reset would invalidate all the work done to flip systems in preparation for this patch that I know all the militias have been doing, as well as force everyone currently living in a system that doesn't originally belong to their faction to move, arbitrarily and artificially, through no fault of their own, no matter how hard they've fought for it. This patch is meant to make FW better, not deliver a soundly demotivating kick in the teeth to the people who've spent the last three years keeping a deeply broken feature alive.
BolsterBomb
POS Party
Ember Sands
#209 - 2012-05-04 20:51:25 UTC
Cearain wrote:




What change happened that you think helps the side with fewer active pilots? "


I think in that entire non nonsensical reasoning there is one question so I think I managed to pick it out?


Nothing, the smaller force can easily do in the current system what they will in the new. The point is now all current pilots have the incentive to go do it. Previously we would take a smaller roam and avoid the blob and go fight equal sized fleets.

What do you expect to occur. The other thing you are forgetting in your entire thought process is

NOW THERE IS A REASON TO HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER

So now 4 small fleets of 10 = 40 people

Those 40 people can no coordinate attacks. I dont understand what you are missing.

4 fleets of 10 organized working together pvpers will do more damage then a blob. Sure take all your people into our home system, and while you do that we will cap yours as well. You cant just resort to blob warefare here.

It isnt well lets drive into PLs system and try to knock stuff out while our crap is 50 jumps in the other direction. It isnt well lets put an SBU here and then just defend it with a huge blob. Blob warefare works in 00 because whoever has the larger fleet can force you out of the system. In this system a smaller fleet can force you out while the blob is being lemmings.

Its not that complicated.

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

Marga Vhiran
Ice Fire Warriors
#210 - 2012-05-04 21:26:08 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.


I think this is a terrible idea. Eve is predicated on the sandbox. Arbitrarily nullifying something that players have been working towards for weeks or months compromises the sandbox. Admittedly system distribution can be lopsided, but that means that the side with fewer systems will be concentrated, and the side with more systems will be spread more thinly.

Eve is not a game in which you are guaranteed equal fights all the time. Sometimes you start in a bad position, and that's what makes this game great. You adapt, you fight back, and you survive. Compromising the sandbox to try to put everyone equal footing is a bad idea.
Shalee Lianne
Triquetra Combined Arms
#211 - 2012-05-04 21:30:31 UTC
lol all the Gallente and Minmatar think it's a bad idea to reset Sov after Inferno for FW. Jeeze, wonder why that is.
http://amarrian.blogspot.com/  ~ Roleplay blog. http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#212 - 2012-05-04 21:31:39 UTC
BTW everyone, I'm going to be writing a blog post this weekend to go over all these things and put them into some context. I'll talk a bit more about the Sov reset issue, pros / cons, and talk about issues of fairness and elasticity in the new war. Stay tuned!

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Asthariye
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#213 - 2012-05-04 21:35:15 UTC
That'd be good, Hans, but keep listening here as well, please. I can't emphasise enough how bad an idea a reset is in my opinion.

And Shalee - I do see what you're getting at, honestly I do. But the playing field has been level in the lead up to this patch - the prospect of getting all of our stuff locked into a system isn't one any of us like, and we've all been spending the time since it was announced dealing with it as best we can. Resetting now would be like refunding everyone who bought a Dramiel right before they got nerfed because it wouldn't be fair - that's not Eve. When a ship gets nerfed, people who bought them don't get refunded, and people who speculated right get rich. That's how it is. This is the same thing.
Loryanna
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2012-05-04 21:39:03 UTC
Resetting the systems goes against everything that EvE stands for. EvE is about creating a continous history that stands up to scrutinisation regardless of how the various iterations of the rules have effected it. An etch-a-sketch end-of-the-world move for 'fairness' would destroy the history we have worked so hard to forge. As well as this, it would be deeply unfair on the Minmatar Alliances that have worked very hard to base themselves within what was once enemy territory. Our ships, our PI, our POSs, our entire infrastructure is built around our current location. Forcing us to move 2.5weeks before patch day is like punishing us for winning the game.

Resetting the system is a truly awful idea and I would be appaulled if was even considered let alone implemented.
Almity
In Exile.
#215 - 2012-05-04 21:41:14 UTC
If you want to look at these changes from LP/isk why would I go do a plex in a highly active area when I could run up metro and cap a few before anyone even knew what I was doing? Get my LP risk free and make Sasa go decontest it after I go to bed. Same thing the next day and over and over.

From a combat point of view I see no good at all from these changes. If you expect to see more small fights you are wrong. Why would someone who is out trying to make LP bother fighting? They will see you come into the plex and just warp out and go two systems over. Add in no docking and you will have a blob camping gates. For those of us who want a fight it will just be longer tines to reship and repair. How does this help the small scale PVP?

The sweeping Minmatar victory is in your grasps Hans! A few more tweeks and it will be yours....
Kuan Yida
Huang Yinglong
Electus Matari
#216 - 2012-05-04 21:50:20 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Also guys think about it. Everyone left FW, ti's dead. it's current members *me included i only left yesterday to get into a new corp after finals week*


Mom, you left without even saying goodbye? BTW, I'm still there and I'm not dead yet.

The dragon knight treasures the state, friendship, duty, promises, kindness, vengeance, honor, and righteousness more than his own life._ _- The Way of the Dragon Warrior Random Posts from Auga

Desra Mascani
Eleutherian Guard
Villore Accords
#217 - 2012-05-04 21:56:52 UTC
Uh. That would be stupid. Right now, people are bleeding ships and their RL time in preparation for the changes, fighting over systems like crazy to secure positions and somebody would like to reset and make all that effort in vain? WTF is wrong with you people?
Shepard Book
Underground Stargate
#218 - 2012-05-04 21:58:04 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
BTW everyone, I'm going to be writing a blog post this weekend to go over all these things and put them into some context. I'll talk a bit more about the Sov reset issue, pros / cons, and talk about issues of fairness and elasticity in the new war. Stay tuned!


Fairness in war? Really?
Annah Kitheran
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#219 - 2012-05-04 22:03:27 UTC
Honestly, I am dissapointed to hear this suggested in any serious way.
We watched the same fanfest stream as everyone else and I'll admit we worried, I think everyone in FW did a little bit. But we did what we have always done and decided that rather than move all our stuff to hi-sec in preparation we were going to work our collective butts to hold on to the system where we have lived for over a year. We made a plan, we enacted said plan. As a result of our militia's superior internal communication and co-operation and our forward planning we are "winning".

To echo Shalee somewhat ironically, "lol all the amarr who couldn't be bothered to plan or fight think it'd be great if CCP made the consequences of their inaction go away." I understand you feel hard done by, but in the circumstances you had all the same information we had, we reacted differently; that is EVE.
Andiedeath
Sefem Ortus
The Serenity Syndicate
#220 - 2012-05-04 22:13:34 UTC
Schalac wrote:
Quote:
2. There are 5 levels of discounts for a number of different things - if you own the system and have upgraded it
- Medical clone discounts (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50% discount)
- Number of assembly lines increases by 1 for every level
- All broker fees discounted (from 10% in increments of 10 up to 50%)
- NOTE: You only get these discounts in the FW system
- ADDENDUM: These discounts apply to neutrals not in FW

The bolded part doesn't make sense. So do you or don't you? I think it would be a dumb idea to give neutrals a piece of what other people fought for.


I agree, whats the reasoning behind giving neutrals access to discounts? They shouldn't be affected by the discounts WE pay for. That and all the pirate FW Corps out there would atleast deter them from even entering FW space.

As long as they can dock, they can still be used as alts for direct opposing faction trade hub runs, which is aboutthe only reason I can think of.

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public