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More FW changes on SiSi

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Author
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#181 - 2012-05-04 17:44:51 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time. With plexing, breaking up into smaller squads and spreading out to hit several at the same time is superior to having one blob move to plex’s individually, we’ve seen this plenty already in the current system, nothing’s changing there. .


The amount of time it takes to flip a system is changing. This means the side that can form the bigger blob will be able to easilly undue anything these nimble fleets hope to accomplish.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Lack of docking, for all its inconvenience, will do one thing for sure. The roaming gangs that attack the plexes in enemy space will be MUCH more likely to be smaller hit squads than large fleets, simply because its safer and faster to avoid the blob that everyone says will form up. FW gangs already do null sec roams for fun, and we don’t usually take a 30 man BS fleet to do it, for good reason. Lack of a place to dock and repair means that nimble fleets that can stay safe are much more appealing.

And that’s precisely what Faction Warfare is supposed to encourage, small gang warfare instead of massive blobbing. I'm not defending the docking idea as a good one, I'm simply pointing out that there could be some positive side effects from it from a combat perspective that at least merit some *patience* to see how it affects PvP before declaring it a tragedy.



Were you ever able to accomplish anything in those nimble fleets you took into null? Do you think those nimble small fleets that can't dock anywhere will ever be able accomplish anything of substance in faction war occupancy? If so, how do you picture that happening?

Given these long timers I just don't see how it will happen.

I picture an amarr fleet of destroyers will cap a few minor plexes in ardar before getting chased out and then decimated by a minmatar smartbombing BS fleet in Dal.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Damar Rocarion
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#182 - 2012-05-04 17:50:29 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Were you ever able to accomplish anything in those nimble fleets you took into null? Do you think those nimble small fleets that can't dock anywhere will ever be able accomplish anything of substance in faction war occupancy? If so, how do you picture that happening?


And with numbers being so lopsided they are, one side can send their own fast gang after the other fast gang while still outnumbering it and thus nothing comes out of it.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2012-05-04 17:53:48 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time. With plexing, breaking up into smaller squads and spreading out to hit several at the same time is superior to having one blob move to plex’s individually, we’ve seen this plenty already in the current system, nothing’s changing there. .


The amount of time it takes to flip a system is changing. This means the side that can form the bigger blob will be able to easilly undue anything these nimble fleets hope to accomplish.



Not 100% true. When we started taking Caldari space, we found that we couldn't really hold systems more than 3 jumps away from our main bases. People just get too tired of defending systems that far away and those systems are pretty meaningless. The dedicated plexers just couldn't defend all that space. Since their is no LP for defensive plexing, there will not be an influx of defensive plexers unless you target the system people live in. The real test will be how long it will really take to flip a system and if you can distract the few dedicated plexers on each side with a diversional assault long enough.

.

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#184 - 2012-05-04 18:02:18 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
...Some good points here. First, to address X Gallentius’ concerns that the attacker will need 23/7 coverage to take a system, because the LP incentives will guarantee aggressive defense of plexes...

Why do blobs/blocs/nap-lists exist do you reckon? No one in their right mind (ie. not insane/psychotic/masochistic) enjoys losing their ships/fights again and again even if said losses are redeemed 100%.
We 'huddle up' in blobs/blocs/nap-lists mainly to avoid losing streaks going on forever, it is the old flock/pack mentality (older than civilization itself) so how the hell can you possibly think that it suddenly stops applying?
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
They gain the benefits of the upgrade systems, but they can’t farm plex LP at that point, they can only run missions or kill invaders...

We have had two plus years of people getting more than enough from farming missions, so much so that missions for non-farmers have become useless .. unless missions are nerfed into the ground (which is never going to happen) the loss of what amounts to an extra income source will go entirely unnoticed to a dominating side.

If missions are nerfed severely, then my guess is that we will have corps joining their alts into opposing milita - spend afk time defensive plexing and reaping LP with mains (think the week long Caldari standings-abuse showcase a few years back) ... we players (read: everyone but me, obviously Big smile) will and consistently do abuse the slightest gap in CCP's train of thought and this coming expansion has gaps large enough to fit my Providence through!
BolsterBomb wrote:
I think if you fight "front line" battles you will lose out on the sovereignty. I believe there are better strategies that will help split the battles up and then combine for large engagements to ultimately flip the system (bunker bust)

[quote=Hans Jagerblitzen]Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time...

This is assuming that CCP manages to balance the plexes to a point where solo/duo capping becomes impossible .. current modus operandi that I have observed (both sides) when numbers are in ones favour is to have main group/gang/fleet kill initial troublesome spawn/manage aggro and then leave capping to redundant pilot/ship freeing up remainder to suppress/kill any attempt to stop it.
So you are right, nothing is changing here. Raw numbers will trump everything else with only one-shot gimmicks (like the Gallente smartbomb thingie on YouTube) breaking the trend.

Do you really want to participate in FW when you are rewarded for, nay required to multi-account/dual-box just to compete?

Still missing data, but had to point out the lapses in your logic, main whines to come when I have digested the promised blogs .. naturally hope I won't have to, but CCP has not exactly shown that they have any idea of what the hell FW is and seem to go by what their precious metrics/models tell them.

PS: Hans, we all know and love the mad scientist CCP Dr.EyjoG and his breakdown of the market numbers .. but what CCP could really use is an anthropologist, psychologist or similar to help them come to terms with that most elusive creature called human nature. Please forward my suggestion through channels, thank you Lol
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#185 - 2012-05-04 18:03:50 UTC
Damar Rocarion wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Were you ever able to accomplish anything in those nimble fleets you took into null? Do you think those nimble small fleets that can't dock anywhere will ever be able accomplish anything of substance in faction war occupancy? If so, how do you picture that happening?


And with numbers being so lopsided they are, one side can send their own fast gang after the other fast gang while still outnumbering it and thus nothing comes out of it.



Yeah lets say we are in dessies doing offensive minor plexes and they send gang of 2xs the destroyers. Well then we can get in the cruisers we had ready fit and docked up in the system and start doing medium plexes. DOh! wait wait...

Then we can. Uhm. Well we can. I got it. We can run back to our base and dock up losing a few ships along the way. Oh well, I'm sure we will "adapt" and "figure something" out.

I mean white noise adapted to these sorts of null sec mechanics when they had to fight outnumbered right?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#186 - 2012-05-04 18:11:45 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time. With plexing, breaking up into smaller squads and spreading out to hit several at the same time is superior to having one blob move to plex’s individually, we’ve seen this plenty already in the current system, nothing’s changing there. .


The amount of time it takes to flip a system is changing. This means the side that can form the bigger blob will be able to easilly undue anything these nimble fleets hope to accomplish.



Not 100% true. When we started taking Caldari space, we found that we couldn't really hold systems more than 3 jumps away from our main bases. People just get too tired of defending systems that far away and those systems are pretty meaningless. The dedicated plexers just couldn't defend all that space. Since their is no LP for defensive plexing, there will not be an influx of defensive plexers unless you target the system people live in. The real test will be how long it will really take to flip a system and if you can distract the few dedicated plexers on each side with a diversional assault long enough.



Good point. I am not sure how the no lp for defensive plexing will work out. Will the defending side let the other side flip a system or two so they can then farm the lp? Will both sides greedilly farm the the offensive plexes and pass eachother like 2 ships in the night? I agree this is hard to know how this will work out in practice and whether this will actually yield more plex fights.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#187 - 2012-05-04 18:16:36 UTC
One thing I don't know is lets say Minmatar take over all of amarr space so amarr can no longer dock in fw space. Will the minmatar still be able to get any missions at all? The missions send you to systems that the other side has sov in. Now we are winning sov not just occupancy.

Its not feasible to find this out from sisi.

If they can still get missions then they will be able to run them in systems we can't even dock in. If they can't get missions then they will be able to leave one system to he amarr and they will know all their missions will send them to that one system.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

BolsterBomb
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-05-04 18:25:53 UTC
I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.

I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.

Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.

Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ

Nis -3 days

50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.

Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.

Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.

By the gals deblobing there is still 50 active pilots running around but now they are 5 groups of 10 which the Caldari can fight.

Your statements that the blob will be able to do system denial is 100% accurate, if you want to park your blob there. Remember if you park the blob there are many other systems to take. If we hit and run we dont necessarily have to hold the system.

By taking the plexes we are getting LP , we get LP for the kills, and we get LP for flipping the system. If my option is to run a mission or flip a system with pvp while running from the blob, Ill take that.

I am not worried about the caldari having no home system to park y toys in. You wont be able to own 100% of every system and neither will we.

The system will always cater to the underdog because the underdog will have more options to gain LP. Missioners will be too lazy to move so everything balances itself out.

Again this is the big part you are missing, the only way a faction can be backed into a corner is if the faction does not work together.

Thats the thing you guys are missing. We have the numbers to fight you in any TZ. The problem is the coordination, which is being fixed.

US TZ Squids - The4, Squids, Proj Cerb, 22nd, DCE, and more. Thats over 90 active pilots that are pvp pilots. You will not be able to blob out coordinated attacks.

Welcome to the real FW



Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#189 - 2012-05-04 18:31:09 UTC
Cearain wrote:
One thing I don't know is lets say Minmatar take over all of amarr space so amarr can no longer dock in fw space. Will the minmatar still be able to get any missions at all? The missions send you to systems that the other side has sov in. Now we are winning sov not just occupancy.

Its not feasible to find this out from sisi.

If they can still get missions then they will be able to run them in systems we can't even dock in. If they can't get missions then they will be able to leave one system to he amarr and they will know all their missions will send them to that one system.


Yep, that's an interesting question. Though it also depends on just how badly the FW missions are getting nerfed. I mean during FanFest they said you'll get most LP for killing, medium for flipping and least for missions. At least that's what I remember (could be wrong).

Plus they said they wanted to stop the while "L4 FW in a bomber" stuff by putting in Sleeper AI instead of regular AI. Might make running missions a lot less effective.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#190 - 2012-05-04 18:32:45 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.

I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.

Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.

Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ

Nis -3 days

50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.

Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.

Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.....


Why would the blob care that Caldari "contests" 2-3 systems and deblob? They will have forty hours to go over and deal with that system. Why not just keep taking systems right next to eachother so that if the caldari do try anything they can all warp in and blob them?

The blobs will be the only entities that can finish the job.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

BolsterBomb
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#191 - 2012-05-04 18:39:41 UTC  |  Edited by: BolsterBomb
Cearain wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.

I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.

Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.

Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ

Nis -3 days

50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.

Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.

Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.....


Why would the blob care that Caldari "contests" 2-3 systems and deblob? They will have forty hours to go over and deal with that system. Why not just keep taking systems right next to eachother so that if the caldari do try anything they can all warp in and blob them?

The blobs will be the only entities that can finish the job.


Because if the blob does not maintain smaller defensive forces they will lose their systems. Its very system blob goes forward smaller forces go around them. Remember the blob is not going to be a consistent 40 hr blob. Its not like star trek where the whole fleet just cruises forward together never ending....

Also the 2-3 could turn to 10-15 if the blob doesnt disband to deal with it.

While your taking 40 meaningless system you have now will have to go back and undue all the work we did on your systems.

Blob mentality will not work for this new system. it will only work when making a strong push for a specific goal.

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

Damar Rocarion
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#192 - 2012-05-04 18:47:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Damar Rocarion
Andre Vauban wrote:
People just get too tired of defending systems that far away and those systems are pretty meaningless. The dedicated plexers just couldn't defend all that space.


You do understand that people have defended space so far for no reward, aside from caldari COSMOS grinds. Main reason dedicated plexers do what they do is simple. They hate each others gut so much they are willing to put up with that ****. Hell, one of them (who supposedly is a father of three daughters) recently infiltrated our voice comms and delivered a message to me, which was about half a minute rant of "f..ggot, c.nt, ba.tard" untill I laughed and muted him.

Great example for your offspring by the way.

But I digress. Best example is of course yours Black Onyx Society which is basicly one guy with 7 alts and his sole reason for doing it is because he hates me. He also likes to go apeshit in local whenever someone harasses his atron alts but that's another story.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#193 - 2012-05-04 18:55:10 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Good point. I am not sure how the no lp for defensive plexing will work out. Will the defending side let the other side flip a system or two so they can then farm the lp? Will both sides greedilly farm the the offensive plexes and pass eachother like 2 ships in the night? I agree this is hard to know how this will work out in practice and whether this will actually yield more plex fights.


If you recall from the Fan Fest presentation, the concept is for LP to not just come from thin air, and thus be farmable. LP is intended to be stolen from the defender's IHUB.

Thus, when an attacker takes a plex he's hurting the enemy in a tangible, real way, every single time, whether or not the system is eventually won or not. That way there's incentive to plex even if you don't think you can win the entire system, because you can still hurt the system owner and affect his pocketbook.

Now, this raises all kinds of questions about the specific details, I'm not sure exactly what the mechanic is on SiSi at this point in time, but that's the idea CCP's running with.

There shouldn't be any real incentive for "LP trading" between alts as a result of this mechanic.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2012-05-04 19:08:27 UTC
Damar Rocarion wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:
People just get too tired of defending systems that far away and those systems are pretty meaningless. The dedicated plexers just couldn't defend all that space.


You do understand that people have defended space so far for no reward, aside from caldari COSMOS grinds. Main reason dedicated plexers do what they do is simple. They hate each others gut so much they are willing to put up with that ****. Hell, one of them (who supposedly is a father of three daughters) recently infiltrated our voice comms and delivered a message to me, which was about half a minute rant of "f..ggot, c.nt, ba.tard" untill I laughed and muted him.

Great example for your offspring by the way.

But I digress. Best example is of course yours Black Onyx Society which is basicly one guy with 7 alts and his sole reason for doing it is because he hates me. He also likes to go apeshit in local whenever someone harasses his atron alts but that's another story.


Yes, I understand that there are the very few dedicated plexers doing the vast majority of the plexing. However, those few people cannot deplex systems that you are actively plexing with a small gang without backup from the pvpers. Those pvpers are currently very happy to come help for the hope of a fight. If there is no fight, they leave. If there was LP for defensive plexing, they would be willing to do that and stick around. Since there is no new reward, there will not be any new defensive plexers. The current defensive plexers just cannot defend the entire warzone by themselves.

Here is how it will work: Dedicated plexer: "WTs are coming into my plex in system XYZ" PVPers "XYZ is very close to me, on my way" or PVPers "XYZ is too far away. I'm going to fly all the way up there and get no fight nor any LP. I'm going to ignore you now and go back to something that involves making isk or blowing something up."

The attacking side will always have more plexers since there is incentive to plex. As long as the number of dedicated/diehard plexers doesn't change much and stay in relative balance, we should see a pretty stable warfront with neither side able to really hold large amounts of conquered systems.

.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#195 - 2012-05-04 19:14:20 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Good point. I am not sure how the no lp for defensive plexing will work out. Will the defending side let the other side flip a system or two so they can then farm the lp? Will both sides greedilly farm the the offensive plexes and pass eachother like 2 ships in the night? I agree this is hard to know how this will work out in practice and whether this will actually yield more plex fights.


If you recall from the Fan Fest presentation, the concept is for LP to not just come from thin air, and thus be farmable. LP is intended to be stolen from the defender's IHUB.

Thus, when an attacker takes a plex he's hurting the enemy in a tangible, real way, every single time, whether or not the system is eventually won or not. That way there's incentive to plex even if you don't think you can win the entire system, because you can still hurt the system owner and affect his pocketbook.

Now, this raises all kinds of questions about the specific details, I'm not sure exactly what the mechanic is on SiSi at this point in time, but that's the idea CCP's running with.

There shouldn't be any real incentive for "LP trading" between alts as a result of this mechanic.


Ok that makes sense. When I was on sisi I ran a offensive plex in tararan and received @17,000 lp. Are you saying that 17,000 lp came directly out of some sort of minmatar lp bank? Or does it only take from the minmatar if they decide to contribute to the system?

So for example if minmatar gain sov in tararan through plexing but never "pay in lp" for any upgrades the amarr would still get some lp for running offensive plexes in tararan right?

I have a hunch we will need to wait for the dev blog on this due to nda issues.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#196 - 2012-05-04 19:21:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
BolsterBomb wrote:
Cearain wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.

I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.

Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.

Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ

Nis -3 days

50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.

Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.

Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.....


Why would the blob care that Caldari "contests" 2-3 systems and deblob? They will have forty hours to go over and deal with that system. Why not just keep taking systems right next to eachother so that if the caldari do try anything they can all warp in and blob them?

The blobs will be the only entities that can finish the job.


Because if the blob does not maintain smaller defensive forces they will lose their systems. Its very system blob goes forward smaller forces go around them. Remember the blob is not going to be a consistent 40 hr blob. Its not like star trek where the whole fleet just cruises forward together never ending....

Also the 2-3 could turn to 10-15 if the blob doesnt disband to deal with it.

While your taking 40 meaningless system you have now will have to go back and undue all the work we did on your systems.

Blob mentality will not work for this new system. it will only work when making a strong push for a specific goal.



As long as the blob stops you before 40 hours is up, unduing your work is easilly done with an alt in a frigate. Why? Because it is just running a defensive plex in systems you can not dock in. Once the larger side has mopped up the area it will be easy to patrol.

I don't think we need to look to star trek. I think we can just see how it is done in null sec.

Now if the time to flip a system unopposed was just @ 1 hour instead of @ 40 hours then yeah I agree the blob would need to split up.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

BolsterBomb
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#197 - 2012-05-04 19:26:55 UTC
Cearain wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
Cearain wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
I feel like Im talking to a wall sometimes guys. For a moment have a positive outlook. Its easy to see the negative and not see what it could bring as positives.

I will spell out the offensive tactics on how this will work.

Your blobs will not work with flipping systems until it gets to the bunker bust.

Ex: Gal vs Caldari US TZ

Nis -3 days

50 man gallente blob was sighted. Caldari had about 20ish "sorta combined" people, we left.

Yes the 50 man blob will be able to wreck havock, but here is the thing. Caldari say FU blob and go run to another system.

Gallente are blobing their systems but the nimble caldari fleet is able to contest 2-3 systems before the blob can retaliate. What happens, the blob then deblobs into mini blobs to protect / hit various system.....


Why would the blob care that Caldari "contests" 2-3 systems and deblob? They will have forty hours to go over and deal with that system. Why not just keep taking systems right next to eachother so that if the caldari do try anything they can all warp in and blob them?

The blobs will be the only entities that can finish the job.


Because if the blob does not maintain smaller defensive forces they will lose their systems. Its very system blob goes forward smaller forces go around them. Remember the blob is not going to be a consistent 40 hr blob. Its not like star trek where the whole fleet just cruises forward together never ending....

Also the 2-3 could turn to 10-15 if the blob doesnt disband to deal with it.

While your taking 40 meaningless system you have now will have to go back and undue all the work we did on your systems.

Blob mentality will not work for this new system. it will only work when making a strong push for a specific goal.



As long as the blob stops you before 40 hours is up, unduing your work is easilly done with an alt in a altron. Why? Because it is just running a defensive plex in systems you can not dock in. Once the larger side has mopped up the area it will be easy to patrol.

I don't think we need to look to star trek. I think we can just see how it is done in null sec.

Now if the time to flip a system unopposed was just @ 1 hour instead of @ 40 hours then yeah I agree the blob would need to split up.


So from you logic, once we assault the plex you think that we wont keep assaulting or make sure it isnt left for dead? You do realize there is more then 1 tz right?

Every argument you make from this blob warfare mentality just is nonsensical. The idea that there are multiple time zones and that militia can cooperate at set goals undoes your entire argument.

The blob will only work for that final push, however if you never get to that stage it wont matter the size of your blob, there is too much that needs to be done for one solid fleet to accomplish. Ecspecially if one militia wants to setup a forward base, maybe 3 systems are hit over and over and whichever one that militia can push the furthest becomes the new forward base. There is simply so much more then just going into a 0.0 system and knocking out the Sov Unit.


Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#198 - 2012-05-04 19:43:46 UTC
Schalac wrote:
I think that if this system does go live though they should reset eveything. Then make it so that you have to gain territory in succesion. None of this grabing Tama and/or OMS right off the bat territory gain. You come in through a regional gate and capture the system, then move onto the next. This would force better fights and actually cause there to be a front line.


I also totally agree that with all of the changes on the table for this expansion, the most fair thing to do would be to reset Sov across the board. I've already been talking to CCP about this particular issue.

As it stands right now, occupancy is a 6-7 hour exercise, and flips every day all over the place, and is meaningless. It's really difficult to say that the current ownership is something worth protecting, especially since I can guarantee that if they DONT do a global reset of Sov there will be mass plexing as we approach the release date, the factions with the greatest numbers right now will own all the systems, which will then become much more permanent.

I'd hate to see this whole new war system start out with one side hideously defeated either practically (from all the penalties) or morale-wise and simply want to quit the war, or quit the game. By resetting Sov, everyone has a fair chance, and if one faction gets crushed after that, its their own fault, not the fault of the mechanical changes.

CCP can't make all the factional enrollment numbers equal, and they can't make some factions get along better than others, but they can give every faction an equal fighting chance at the start of the new war.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#199 - 2012-05-04 19:47:03 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:


So from you logic, once we assault the plex you think that we wont keep assaulting or make sure it isnt left for dead? You do realize there is more then 1 tz right?


It will take you 40 hours. If at anytime the blob comes in to drive you off they will then be able to have an alt in a cheap ship orbit the button in systems you can not even dock in while they continue to look for pvp with thier mains.

BolsterBomb wrote:
[
Every argument you make from this blob warfare mentality just is nonsensical. The idea that there are multiple time zones and that militia can cooperate at set goals undoes your entire argument.

The blob will only work for that final push, however if you never get to that stage it wont matter the size of your blob, there is too much that needs to be done for one solid fleet to accomplish. Ecspecially if one militia wants to setup a forward base, maybe 3 systems are hit over and over and whichever one that militia can push the furthest becomes the new forward base. There is simply so much more then just going into a 0.0 system and knocking out the Sov Unit.






You do realize that what you claim is impossible, and nonsensical for me to think, was already done right?

The caldari captured all the systems in their front. They did this even though there was no advantage at all to capping systems! Think about that.

Now they added incentives to cap systems. This will only increase the desire to accomplish this despite the grind.

Now they made it so you can't dock in systems you lose. This will only make it easier to mop up after one side gains an edge.

What change happened that you think helps the side with fewer active pilots? The only one I know of is that you get no lp for doing defensive plexes. Do you get standings? I don't know. But since it is very easy to have an alt run a defensive plex, especially when the enemy can't even dock there, I don't see this as a big deal.

The majority of these changes just gives more incentive for the larger side to continue the grind (lp bonuses) and hurts the underdog from being able to fight back (no docking)

Plus at least in the amarr minmatar front there are allot of bottlenecks. If you take a smaller fleet into systems you can not dock in it will be easy to get caught.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#200 - 2012-05-04 20:10:16 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Some good points here. First, to address X Gallentius’ concerns that the attacker will need 23/7 coverage to take a system, because the LP incentives will guarantee aggressive defense of plexes. Some players are discovering on SiSi that in the new system, there is no LP payout for defensive plexing. One of the commmunity’s greatest concerns so far has the need for elasticity in the Faction Warfare system, and incentives for the underdog.

By limiting plexing payouts to those that are taking space, there exists a reward for those that are fighting from behind that is not granted to the winning team. If one faction steamrolls the other and owns all the systems, they also lose their ability to grind plexes for isk. They gain the benefits of the upgrade systems, but they can’t farm plex LP at that point, they can only run missions or kill invaders.

[
At least it will be less challenging to take a system than I thought. It will still be pretty difficult, but with the fiscal incentives for the attacker, it might balance out. We'll see.