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Inferno And Datacores

First post
Author
Kesker
The Sagan Clan
#181 - 2012-05-03 15:22:59 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
So, it sounds like we won't be able to aquire datacores without FW LP....so presumably folks doing FW will buy them with their LP/ISK and then put them on the market, so us bottom feeder Tech 2 producers can still operate. Will these guys even have to have the prerequisite skills to get them?

Right now what I've been doing is using the datacores I aquire through my standings and skills to research blueprints, so I can go on to manufacture the goods. I assume in this new scheme I can buy the datacores at a vastly inflated price from the market to continue to do this? Margins are kinda squeeky close on some of the stuff you can manufacture as it is, so I assume this will essentially crush the ability to make any money doing tech 2 production UNLESS you are participating in FW?

Is there any wiggle room in this new paradigm? Can I still make a profit on tech 2 without doing FW somehow?




You realise that you can drop in and out of the NPC FW corps at will, right?



You realize T2 industrialists likley have a POS for research??? and you realize that this POS is likely in hisec??? So leaving the corp isn't really an option, less you dismantle your corp just to go farm some LP for datacores.

Oh wait, now I need another alt.



One glaring thing occurs to me. How many of us have alts? LOTS Why do we have alts? Perhaps we were looking for other ways to make ISK. Why do we need so much ISK? Well the rewards for the playstyle I was in made it incredibly hard to afford that next ship tier.

In my eyes, all of this is from a poor rewards system to begin with. Whether it be industry, mining, ratting, missioning, etc We have nearly all tried to find other ways to supplement our main characters efforts and wallet, in the form of trading, DC's, PI, etc.

What does CCP do.... They have put an all out assault on these forms of income. What do we see as a result? Skyrocketing costs of all in game items.

Perhaps if the rewards system was better, we could do as they want and just go shoot other ships. It's often voiced that a PvP player has an alt to generate isk so they can PvP. Instead, all of these nerfs to the passive, or semi-passsive income only create the need for us to spend more time generating ISK.

ISK drives your game, stop making it harder to aquire.
Belloche
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#182 - 2012-05-03 15:36:51 UTC
All,
Just checked on the latest build of SISI. They are HALVING the amount of datacores you get and adding an isk cost. Instead of costing 50RP for a mechanical engineering datacore it now costs 100RP and 10k isk per mechanical engineering datcore. So my 80M isk a month from running 5 agents will now be worth 40M.

here is a screen shot: Datacore costs


Malcanis,
How about making it so that all the alliances in 0.0 should not be able to control who docks at their outposts and have open build slots. After all, you currently can't restrict who docks and builds in high sec. When all of 0.0 is open to ANYONE to dock and build, then it will be a level playing field. That would be a level playing field, right?
Brunaburh
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#183 - 2012-05-03 15:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Brunaburh
Malcanis wrote:
Can't you answer the question? Surely if tilting one part of industrial activity towards 0.0 is "breaking the sandbox" then tilting all parts of industrial activity to hi-sec is breaking it, scattering the sand and replacing it with broken glass and rusty razor wire?

How is giving hi-sec every possible advantage in industrial activity "sandboxy"?

I chose this, of all you comments Malcanis. And I'll answer your first question with one word. Technetium.

Now I'll ramble on.
In the T2 production cycle, HiSec has the following items in plentiful supply (or at least, easy to get):

Low-end minerals
Virtually unlimited production lines in stations
Agents with Datacores for T2 invention
T1 BPOs from NPC stations.

LoSec has:
...
...
Agents with Datacores for T2 invention
Available R&D slots in stations for BP research & copying
Towers for moon goo reactions
Limited Technetium
...

NullSec has:
High end Minerals
Limited production lines in stations (including R&D)
Capital and Supercapital Construction Platforms
Towers for moon go reactions
Technetium
More Technetium
did I mention Technetium?


I'm in favor of improving the ability to produce in Nullsec. But realistically, the three areas of space should have some interdependency, and throwing datacores in Faction War does not move datacores to LoSec, it moves datacores to a singular aspect of of LoSec that inherently excludes access to 50% of empire (including racial datacores).

Nullsec already has a virtual monopoly on T2 production by the simple existence of Technetium without an alchemical alternative. The fact that production happens in Empire has NOTHING to do with R&D agents providing datacores instead of an LP store. EVERY SINGLE T2 item in the game REQUIRES Technetium. All of the other changes to ANY production system are virtually IRRELEVANT with that TEN-TON ELEPHANT sitting in the corner.

A Patch from CCP that fixed T2 production and Technetium would do more for this game than any of the things happening in Inferno.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#184 - 2012-05-03 16:05:34 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Then CCP comes along and says, " Sorry you wasted all that time and training., but you need to shoot stuff for datacores now and become a war target while you do it."


Completely incorrect.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1229956#post1229956

CCP Soundwave wrote:
We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.

Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.


We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details.

But do carry on, your amusing as always....

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Kesker
The Sagan Clan
#185 - 2012-05-03 16:20:03 UTC
Belloche wrote:
All,
Just checked on the latest build of SISI. They are HALVING the amount of datacores you get and adding an isk cost. Instead of costing 50RP for a mechanical engineering datacore it now costs 100RP and 10k isk per mechanical engineering datcore. So my 80M isk a month from running 5 agents will now be worth 40M.

here is a screen shot: Datacore costs


Malcanis,
How about making it so that all the alliances in 0.0 should not be able to control who docks at their outposts and have open build slots. After all, you currently can't restrict who docks and builds in high sec. When all of 0.0 is open to ANYONE to dock and build, then it will be a level playing field. That would be a level playing field, right?



Thanks for the screen shot, and the info. I made my regular 2 month run yesterday to pick up my datacores. If you think this doesn't have an in game cost of time.... Total round trip for my four lv4 agents... 84 jumps. That's not AFK either when you are carrying these things.

Now, I actually use my datacores, and it's not even enough to supply me what I need for the two months it takes to accrue them. So I'm not farming ISK. I will now have to buy twice as many datacores off the market (perhaps all, because it's hardly worth running around getting them anymore). The cost of your T2 mods, and ships is going up, because you just reduced my profit margins. (If it isn't profitable it doesn't get produced.)

I can't believe the amount of time I spent grinding those agents. The costs of the skills, and time training.

T2 production is an expensive endeavor as it is, and it just went up. Even a small tower now costs over 100mil isk in fuel per month. (Med. tower 200mil+, Lg tower 400mil+) Even if I were farming DCs for ISK, I wouldn't be able to cover the cost of fuel for a small tower. The PI changes to tax rates nearly doubled our POS fuel costs for strictly invention. Sure its more efficient if running all sorts of mods, but again CCP hurt the little man. Just like a real economy, you need start ups. Yet you keep making it more and more difficult for them to make a profit.

I don't know why we all bother posting our thoughts here. CCP already made their decision obviously. They really don't care what we have to say. The only thing that will get their attention is a player protest as happened last year.
Kesker
The Sagan Clan
#186 - 2012-05-03 16:25:42 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Then CCP comes along and says, " Sorry you wasted all that time and training., but you need to shoot stuff for datacores now and become a war target while you do it."


Completely incorrect.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1229956#post1229956

CCP Soundwave wrote:
We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.

Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.


We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details.

But do carry on, your amusing as always....



The point trying to be made was that it's no longer worth running R&D agents for return on investment. A 50 % reduction in RP rates effectively kills the incentive to train or build standings with the R&D corp.

Not very amusing at all when you have made that kind of commitment to a career path.

As another poster pointed out, it takes years of accumulation to make up for the time invested. Now it would have been better spent just running lv4 missions.
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#187 - 2012-05-03 16:32:21 UTC
CCP, did you get feedback on this R&D change from the CSM? Either CSM6 or CSM7? Both?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#188 - 2012-05-03 16:37:12 UTC
The various cores will be split among the militias and even with variable pricing in the LP store, they will crash and hard as FW LP will become a lot (as in "thats a lot of zeroes!) easier to acquire.

LP for plexing, for killing, for system flips, for missions and just about anything else FW related .. so effectively infinite LP for anyone at any time. Personally consider the whole thing a stealth-boost to invention (and by extension a stealth-nerf to BPOs) as lower costs will put it very close to BPO holder performance after volume is factored in.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#189 - 2012-05-03 16:41:52 UTC
Kesker wrote:
The point trying to be made was that it's no longer worth running R&D agents for return on investment. A 50 % reduction in RP rates effectively kills the incentive to train or build standings with the R&D corp.

Not very amusing at all when you have made that kind of commitment to a career path.

As another poster pointed out, it takes years of accumulation to make up for the time invested. Now it would have been better spent just running lv4 missions.

I get his point. My agents are going to be impacted exactly the same way...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol
#190 - 2012-05-03 16:45:15 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
jack morrigan wrote:
dear CCP this datacore chamge along with the removal of drone salvage is just the latest attack on indipendent hi/sec t2 industry , if the purpose of these attacks is to force us into lagre alliance's you lose i'm don't pay my subscription just to be controled by someone i have a boss in R/L , i'll just find another game to play



Did you know that there are areas of 0.0 that aren't controlled by "lagre" alliances?


Yes. Those are the areas that are conquered by large alliances, and then rented out for profit.

Aron Croup
Incompatible Protocol
#191 - 2012-05-03 16:59:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
As a compromise, how would you feel if conditions for hi-seccers trying to do industry and invention were merely made the same as in 0.0?

I presume a level playing field would be optimum for promoting "the sandbox" in your eyes?


Noone ever said that. There's no ABC ores in high-sec, no dysp and tech moons. Sandbox does not equal level playing field or conformity, it means that you get to chose what you want to do and where you want to do it.

When CCP Soundwave states that they would like to see T2 production move to 0.0, that points to CCP visions of streamlining the game play experience to one where you progress from high-sec to low-sec and finally null-sec, which is a linear progression rather than an open and free experience.

If you watched the fanfest panels and listen to CCP's podcasts it's not uncommon to hear such sentiments, that they would like more 'empire carebears' to move into low- and null-sec and take up PVP, but I think it's a big mistake for CCP to try and define what we should all be doing.

The success of this game has always come from the formulae that CCP gives us the tools and we do what we want with them (until we break them).




Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#192 - 2012-05-03 17:00:03 UTC
when it was on sisi last night, it was like this:

rp rate is halved from agents, datacores all cost 10k isk and 100 rp from the agents.

militia lp store, offers were 5 datacores for 1000 lp and 1m isk.

Amarr lp store has:
Amarr starship engineering, graviton physics, high energy physics, laser physics, nanite engineering

Caldari lp store has:
Caldari starship engineering, hydromagnetic physics, quantum physics, rocket science

Gallente lp store has:
Gallente starship engineering, electronic engineering, electromagnetic physics, plasma physics

Minmatar lp store has:
Minmatar starship engineering, mechanical engineering, molecular engineering, nuclear physics.

No science skills are needed to get the offers.

Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/

Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#193 - 2012-05-03 17:03:35 UTC
Kariva wrote:
Some People don't wont to PVP is that so HARD to understand CCP....???

When you adjust an order on the market, you pvp...
When you create contracts *just* below someone else' contract, you pvp...
When you grind standings so that you get that 1.5% better refine than someone else, you pvp...
When you kill rats you are effectively pvp'ing against anyone else who wants to shoot rats (their gone when they look, because of your actions)...
PVP isn't just "target, press f1" - it's dam near *everything* in eve with the possible exception of "request mission" & "complete mission".


And apparently, CCP likes it that way, because (you know) they've coded it that way...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#194 - 2012-05-03 17:04:31 UTC
Kesker wrote:

T2 production is an expensive endeavor as it is, and it just went up. Even a small tower now costs over 100mil isk in fuel per month. (Med. tower 200mil+, Lg tower 400mil+) Even if I were farming DCs for ISK, I wouldn't be able to cover the cost of fuel for a small tower. The PI changes to tax rates nearly doubled our POS fuel costs for strictly invention. Sure its more efficient if running all sorts of mods, but again CCP hurt the little man. Just like a real economy, you need start ups. Yet you keep making it more and more difficult for them to make a profit.


POS fuel costs have not changed much in a very long time.

(small/medium/large, millions of ISK per 30 days)

Oct 2011 - 150-175 / 231-276 / 392-482
Dec 2011 - 125 / 230 / 440
Feb 2012 - 95 / 190 / 380
Apr 2012 - 100 / 200 / 400

If anything, running a small/medium tower got a good bit cheaper once fuel blocks arrived on the scene.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#195 - 2012-05-03 17:08:18 UTC
Kesker wrote:
T2 production is an expensive endeavor as it is, and it just went up. Even a small tower now costs over 100mil isk in fuel per month. (Med. tower 200mil+, Lg tower 400mil+) Even if I were farming DCs for ISK, I wouldn't be able to cover the cost of fuel for a small tower. The PI changes to tax rates nearly doubled our POS fuel costs for strictly invention. Sure its more efficient if running all sorts of mods, but again CCP hurt the little man. Just like a real economy, you need start ups. Yet you keep making it more and more difficult for them to make a profit.

I don't know why we all bother posting our thoughts here. CCP already made their decision obviously. They really don't care what we have to say. The only thing that will get their attention is a player protest as happened last year.



I had to pull my tower down recently because of this. What I had planned to do was put it back up in bursts to try and conserve fuel costs, by building up enough fuel through PI to run it for a stretch, blitz the thing with research jobs, then pull it down again after I had enough successes to do a decent manufacturing blitz.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#196 - 2012-05-03 17:23:16 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:

POS fuel costs have not changed much in a very long time.

(small/medium/large, millions of ISK per 30 days)

Oct 2011 - 150-175 / 231-276 / 392-482
Dec 2011 - 125 / 230 / 440
Feb 2012 - 95 / 190 / 380
Apr 2012 - 100 / 200 / 400

If anything, running a small/medium tower got a good bit cheaper once fuel blocks arrived on the scene.


I'm sure you are correct, but yields from PI went down. So if you are like me, and make your own fuel (I even mine my own ice), there's less of it on hand.
Killer Gandry
Fenghuang Corporation
#197 - 2012-05-03 17:34:20 UTC
This is how a typical miner / builder in null sec thinks:

AttentionMine ABC's only to have maximal Isk per hour ratio.
AttentionRefine and keep Zydrine and Megacyte required to build aside and use the almost perfectly safe way of JB's and titanbridges to haul the rest to Empire
AttentionSell the excess zydrine and megacyte and buy low ends.
AttentionCompress the low ends and use the virtually safe way of jumpdrives to get back.
AttentionFor real easy transport get capships, jump them back and reprocess.



In null sec sov space the Isk per hour ratio is virtually a holy mantra. Just looking at the various sites you will see Sanctums and Havens farmed to death. The lesser ones get glanced at at times for various reasons, but the overall Isk per hour is too low to bother with them.

However if hi sec wants to do maximal Isk per hour the null sec sov bears quickly start to use their batphone and voila, more nerfs in favour of null sec and then the mandatory HTFU.

You play the game as directed or you just have to suffor more and more the consequences.

The hypocracy of even calling it a Sandbox nowadays is absurd.
Instead of fixing the real issues they cater towards their "Homies" and all is well.

Make the route to get the low ends to null sec more of a pain in the butt.
There isn't really a harsh null sec unless you talk about NPC null sec.
Cyno jammers all over the place, plenty of PoS to safe up or warp to safespot and cloak up.
There is plenty of intell about a hostile or hostiles.

All in all null sec sov space is far more of a carebear land than hi sec.

In hi sec the use of directional scanner is a must, in null sec you can see in local if someone doesn't belong before you even start using the directional scanner.



Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
#198 - 2012-05-03 17:50:26 UTC
I have 5 hisec datacore agents and I think this is a great move by CCP. Passive isk income from hisec activities are in need of a nerf.
Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2012-05-03 18:01:37 UTC
I agree all passive income sources should be nerfed but lets start on the big earners first and completely scrap moon mining and replace it with a PI style system until ring mining or whatever is ready.
Jaangel
Tectu
#200 - 2012-05-03 18:01:41 UTC
AFk wealth is great.

Leave data cores alone.