These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Wormholes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP where's the Wormhole NERFS WHY ARE THEY GETTING OFF SCOT FREE?? BURN EVE RYONE equally

First post
Author
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#61 - 2012-04-15 18:21:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
The thing you're missing is the most important part.

Whereas I can farm incursions or missions 23.5/7 I cannot do the same for WH sites, since they disappear once complete and respawn in a different system, not infinitely so, and only a handful of AUs away. The fact WHs inject a lot of ISK is because people are damn good at securing their sites and running them when they have them.

In such, there is a natural cap on what any one group of WH residents can actually inject into the economy in a period of time.

You're also comparing highsec income to income from an environment which is nullsec with no local to warn you of interlopers.

The current risk:reward ratio makes doing sites in a C1-C4 wormhole almost pointless when you can make the same money, easier and with no risk in highsec. If they nerfed wormholes alongside Incursions then you wouldn't be doing anything to incentivise people taking more risk to reap the higher rewards, which is largely the whole point of eve.

tl;dr stop being a mewling risk averse cry baby and asking for unrelated nerfs because boo-hoo some people will take more risk than you to get the rewards.

Addendum: you also need to haul all the loot to market once you have it, which presents a very real chance of you losing everything you've worked for, vs incursions where it just magics itself into your wallet.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

TheLightningCount
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#62 - 2012-04-15 18:35:48 UTC
Darth just seems like a frickin ******. After having lived in wormholes for years, I can tell you this.

1. Wormholes are by no means overflowing with isk.

2. Whatever isk you make is shared with your fleet members.

3. You are going to die in a wormhole. Its not a matter of IF, or WHEN, but how often. Plan your finances accordingly.

I left wormholes over a year ago to run HS incursions with BOJ fleets, absolution fleet, and started making over 200 mil an hour. In wormholes I would make 150m an hour. (Which was judging by the time it took to farm all sites in a wormhole and selling it then splitting it up between your corp mates.)

SO the obvious answer was incursions. I knew ccp would nerf it as it threw inflation into the fire, but I didnt care. I took advantage of the system before it was handled. Everyone else did the same.

Now that incursions are going away. I plan to go back to wormholes, and make more isk and have more fun doing it than you ever will.

But if you ask nicely, I might share some of my blue loot with you :)
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-04-15 19:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Lanasak wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Blue loot is a ISK FOUNTAIN that injects as much ISK into the EVE economy as incursions do on a monthly basis


1) there's a lot more people cashing out blue loot than there are incursion runners
2) there is infinitely more risk in wormholes than in welfare incursions


Yet it would be better for everyone inflation wise if both Incursions and Wormhole dropped more raw materials/modules instead of printing ISK.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#64 - 2012-04-15 19:49:52 UTC
TheLightningCount wrote:
Darth just seems like a frickin ******. After having lived in wormholes for years, I can tell you this.

1. Wormholes are by no means overflowing with isk.

2. Whatever isk you make is shared with your fleet members.

3. You are going to die in a wormhole. Its not a matter of IF, or WHEN, but how often. Plan your finances accordingly.

I left wormholes over a year ago to run HS incursions with BOJ fleets, absolution fleet, and started making over 200 mil an hour. In wormholes I would make 150m an hour. (Which was judging by the time it took to farm all sites in a wormhole and selling it then splitting it up between your corp mates.)

SO the obvious answer was incursions. I knew ccp would nerf it as it threw inflation into the fire, but I didnt care. I took advantage of the system before it was handled. Everyone else did the same.

Now that incursions are going away. I plan to go back to wormholes, and make more isk and have more fun doing it than you ever will.

But if you ask nicely, I might share some of my blue loot with you :)


Lets not forget that that 150 million per hour is actually only for about 4-5 hours a week at best in your home system. Anything on top of that generally requires seeking out sites in other Wormholes with increasing Risk as you go farther out, or through manufacturing and mining gases

So to recap, that amounts to 150 * 8 players * average 4.5 hours per week = 5.4 billion ISK per week max out of a C6 on average. That's with max. Cap Escalations btw, using at least a Carrier and 2 Dreads to draw the Escalations. Just to be clear, Dreads are useless for anything but spawning the Cap wave and gtfo after, and Carriers are only useful for that and running logistics while trying to stay alive themselves. That's not as easy as it sounds btw

Also, multiple players generally don't sell Blue loot in my experience; it typically boils down to one guy escorted out by 3-5 selling all the loot from 2-3 weeks that isn't to be used in manufacturing. Same guy also usually uses the same ship to transport all the manufactured products out for sale once every 2-3 weeks and restock on Fuel Blocks and various other things needed to maintain POS or build another Dread or whatever

If that second run seems a bit much to you, then I guess you haven't considered the multiple hours of running reactions and clamping down the wormhole required to actually produce all that while you've dropped nearly all your POS defenses. Basically, you're running reactions all week for 6-8 hours a day most times just to produce what's required to build the reverse engineered sleeper toys. Often, there are days when the damn reactor is almost 24/7 if you've got the materials to feed it, because you can't build a damn thing without it

When was the last time you had to do that for Incursions? The funny thing is that most of what gets earned off that whole process just goes back into the POS or maintaining the hole as you watch the Corp Wallet jump to 2-3 billion and shortly after, drop back down to 350-400 million. More payouts there btw; somebody has to mine all that gas. Too bad the same can't generally be said for minerals which quite often have to be imported for lack of Grav sites

So, in the end you're back to a max. of 5.4 billion ISK split between 8-20 or more people per week in a wormhole. That sort of means that you trade places every other week so someone has a chance to earn ISK because any more than 8-10 people running a site is just silly. Not because it makes it easier, but rather because it's much more likely that someone will lose their ship as you increase in numbers beyond 6-8.

Also, theres no spinny little ships here. You either fly something that can handle the site or you stay home because you will lose it and nobody can be bothered to try and keep you alive which is relatively futile anyway. That means you go without Reps because you will melt in a heartbeat every other second. It's also unlikely that you will be helping much.


I'm going to have to try an Incursion one of these days, just to see what thats like.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#65 - 2012-04-15 20:02:43 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Lanasak wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Blue loot is a ISK FOUNTAIN that injects as much ISK into the EVE economy as incursions do on a monthly basis


1) there's a lot more people cashing out blue loot than there are incursion runners
2) there is infinitely more risk in wormholes than in welfare incursions


Yet it would be better for everyone inflation wise if both Incursions and Wormhole dropped more raw materials/modules instead of printing ISK.



Right, then we can have an excess amount of unmanufacturable goods because we don't have the resources to support their manufacture. And, if we did, then we could increase the time requirements by 2 for current manufacture, reduce the ISK per hour ratio accordingly, then flood the market with Tech 3 goods and watch them drop in cost appropriately.

Shortly after we'll all decide there is just to much supply readily available and the other half of the Wormhole occupants will disappear back into Highsec while every other Wormhole loses its combat ready pilots for want of any real chance to make ISK for all that trouble.

Soon the only ones running sites will be those who don't manufacture, bringing all the loot back to Highsec for other people to buy and manufacture as their whims dictate because that would be the only way to survive. T3 Manufacture will become subject to all the BS that comes with Highsec manufacturing and production as it becomes a controlled commodity making just one person Billions of ISK.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#66 - 2012-04-15 20:09:31 UTC
Incursions hasn't been nerfed enough.

High Sec Incursions needs to either be removed altogether or lose CONCORD protection.

Wormhole space on the other hand is considered the one part of EVE CCP largely got right and is well balanced with Risk, Effort, and Reward. ..and of course Incursion morons want to nerf it. Lol
Dax Golem
Frozen Dawn Inc
#67 - 2012-04-15 20:24:17 UTC
Risk - Reward in Wormholes is at balance. Shocked

If you adjust the safety of incursions to the level of WH safety, then by all means, lower the buy orders of the blue badges.
But untill then, it's as it should be.

You are now breathing manually

Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-04-15 21:41:23 UTC
Oh look, another Darth thread and his inflation whines.

Stuff Goes here

Warlord Shat
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2012-04-15 21:45:23 UTC
The main difference is Risk vs Reward

Incursions have no Risk, While Wormholes have a very high risk you there is no local and you can have openings to anywhere

You also have to sell your loot, which also means you can be ganked while going to sell it so you nothing

The Risk vs Reward for Wormholes is fine

Stop whining
Masikari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-04-15 21:53:50 UTC
Mr LaForge wrote:
Oh look, another Darth thread and his inflation whines.


Yup. I'm REALLY starting to think that Darth is just trolling now. All these people taking the time to explain Wormhole processes and he just ignores them.

Writing this thread off as a troll
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#71 - 2012-04-15 21:58:33 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Lanasak wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Blue loot is a ISK FOUNTAIN that injects as much ISK into the EVE economy as incursions do on a monthly basis


1) there's a lot more people cashing out blue loot than there are incursion runners
2) there is infinitely more risk in wormholes than in welfare incursions


Yet it would be better for everyone inflation wise if both Incursions and Wormhole dropped more raw materials/modules instead of printing ISK.

How does blue loot add isk? NPC buy orders?
Masikari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-04-15 22:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Masikari
Corina Jarr wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Lanasak wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Blue loot is a ISK FOUNTAIN that injects as much ISK into the EVE economy as incursions do on a monthly basis


1) there's a lot more people cashing out blue loot than there are incursion runners
2) there is infinitely more risk in wormholes than in welfare incursions


Yet it would be better for everyone inflation wise if both Incursions and Wormhole dropped more raw materials/modules instead of printing ISK.

How does blue loot add isk? NPC buy orders?


Yup. It's the equivalent of bounties on any NPC ships. And CCP put NPC buy orders up for them for that reason.

DarthNefarius wrote:
Yet it would be better for everyone inflation wise if both Incursions and Wormhole dropped more raw materials/modules instead of printing ISK.


WH's don't print ISK like incursions. You HAVE to loot the wrecks to make any ISK. The loot from from Sleeper wrecks has to be manufactured after reverse engineer other components. And that takes a lot of work.

Sure, you can sell the loot on the market, but the only thing that's worth while selling is the nano-ribbons. And the reason they are worth so much is because they are rare drops and the vital common-component to building all the various T3 modules.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#73 - 2012-04-15 22:17:20 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Lanasak wrote:
[quote=DarthNefarius]Blue loot is a ISK FOUNTAIN that injects as much ISK into the EVE economy as incursions do on a monthly basis


Yet it would be better for everyone inflation wise if both Incursions and Wormhole dropped more raw materials/modules instead of printing ISK.

How does blue loot add isk? NPC buy orders?


Yes. The mechanism is thru NPC buy orders. CCP Soundwave has announced through an interview he's planning on a 10% nerf across the board on all bounties & a ISK nerf on Incursions. The next week a DEV blog conferms there will be a 10% reduction in Vangurd incursion payouts. CCP is planning on punishing every single ISK fountain in the game EXCEPT wormholes to counter inflation from what I hear no matter the risk. Wormhole Wendy giving handies to all the CCP employees to escape thier ISK fountain's nerfing along with the rest of all of Eve?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Masikari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-04-15 22:25:54 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Lanasak wrote:
[quote=DarthNefarius]Blue loot is a ISK FOUNTAIN that injects as much ISK into the EVE economy as incursions do on a monthly basis


Yet it would be better for everyone inflation wise if both Incursions and Wormhole dropped more raw materials/modules instead of printing ISK.

How does blue loot add isk? NPC buy orders?


Yes. The mechanism is thru NPC buy orders. CCP Soundwave has announced through an interview he's planning on a 10% nerf across the board on all bounties & a ISK nerf on Incursions. The next week a DEV blog conferms there will be a 10% reduction in Vangurd incursion payouts. CCP is planning on punishing every single ISK fountain in the game EXCEPT wormholes to counter inflation from what I hear no matter the risk. Wormhole Wendy giving handies to all the CCP employees to escape thier ISK fountain's nerfing along with the rest of all of Eve?


You could argue that Incursions aren't getting nerfed - they're getting balanced. Don't forget Assault sites are getting buffed and Vangards nerfed to bring it in balance. Assaults = harder, so it should have a better payout than Vanguards.

What about the Drone regions? They're getting there poo removed and bounties placed..... instant ISK! Where's before they had to harvest and transport the sleeper wrecks. The new method is easier, right?

I'm still convinced Darth is just trolling tho.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#75 - 2012-04-15 22:59:56 UTC
From what I've read above the only change to sleeper sites has been the addition of neutralizers?!?
Wormhole life sounds pretty static the past few years then.
But back to my point ESCALATION & INFERNO is IGNORING Wormholes totally. Hi SEC is getting a new wardecking system. Incursions sites are changing. And Drone region's true sec status is downgrading along with the switch from alloys to bounties.
I really feel sorry for the Drone region peeps first they are going to have to learn a new way of life after the alloys disappear then after they start making ISK a 10% nerf well come along for a double wammy .
HI/LO/NULL are all seeing nerfs yet wormholes nothing. Must be nice to be ignored by CCP for such a period. Guess if CCP did do any changes to WH's it would be like WORMHOLE stabilizers then peeps there would really scream about CCP shaking up the ant farmAttentionLolEvilTwisted
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Vihura
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-04-15 23:04:28 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Incursions getting nerfed & drone alloys getting nerfed why are the blue loot NPC buy orders not getting nerfed to to help with the inflation?!?! The Pax Amarrian nerf was a good precendent of a NPC sell order which was balanced next the sleeper blue loot NPC buy order should be cut in the name of balance. A possible bounty 10% cut is being thrown around too by CCP Soundwave. Only one currenntly smelling like a rose is the Wormhole residents with the Escalation to Inferno lets have HYPERINFLATION mean the end fo Empire NPC's no longer being able to affford to buy sleeper crap which is non ribbons which acually add something to Eve & empire ( at least with Incursions Capsuleers are providing a service to Empire residents what has blueloot added to Empire's security? ) . LETS HAVE EVERYONE FEEL THE PAIN OF ESCALATING INFERNO[:!: A pox on EVERYONE'S house


In incursions you dont have Arazu bumping you from aligne, and blob of ships 30s later on you and loss of 1.5 bilion.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#77 - 2012-04-15 23:12:40 UTC
It seems it's not clear enough why WHs income is fine.

Incursions pay so extremely well (and much more than L4) because OH MY GOSH you had to find a proper fleet. End of.


C4+ (where money is to be made) WHs *begin* from finding a proper fleet and then add all the risks of 0.0 space and then add unique risks of no local chat space and then add the nightmare logistics, and then add the AWFUL "live at POS" (only those who had to do it know the full extent of PAIN of it) and then add Sleepers AI. And if you get podded, you are boned. The 12 inches pillar in the ass kind of boned.
Masikari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-04-15 23:17:01 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
From what I've read above the only change to sleeper sites has been the addition of neutralizers?!?
Wormhole life sounds pretty static the past few years then.
But back to my point ESCALATION & INFERNO is IGNORING Wormholes totally. Hi SEC is getting a new wardecking system. Incursions sites are changing. And Drone region's true sec status is downgrading along with the switch from alloys to bounties.
I really feel sorry for the Drone region peeps first they are going to have to learn a new way of life after the alloys disappear then after they start making ISK a 10% nerf well come along for a double wammy .
HI/LO/NULL are all seeing nerfs yet wormholes nothing. Must be nice to be ignored by CCP for such a period. Guess if CCP did do any changes to WH's it would be like WORMHOLE stabilizers then peeps there would really scream about CCP shaking up the ant farmAttentionLolEvilTwisted


Oh my days. The reason WH's aren't getting nerfed is because they are already well balanced. Probably the most balanced area of the game. And the reason CCP have left it alone for a while is because it doesn't need messing with. Please give WH space a go, Darth, and you will see what everyone here is talking about. Unless you know what WH space is like how can you even begin to comment. Does the volume of replies disagreeing with what your saying not tell you something?
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#79 - 2012-04-15 23:18:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
There is one thing that needs to be nerfed if all these others go into effect.. AFK Cloaking. Not sure about Wormholes tho.



oh here we go again... the mythical problem of "AFK" cloaking requires that all cloaking take a hit...sic.

Cloaking is not broken nor does it break anything else. AFK cloakers, if they exist, are not going to gank you while they are "AFK". Remove all cloakers from local while they are cloaked (unless they speak up in chat) - you'll never have to feel threatened by an "AFK cloaker" again.

PO'ed OP: An expansion is not supposed to be about nerfs - remember that CCP is adding new ways to make money as well as the changes you mention.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Lanasak
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-04-15 23:57:38 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Remove all cloakers from local while they are cloaked (unless they speak up in chat) - you'll never have to feel threatened by an "AFK cloaker" again.


this is a stupid idea, get lost