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New Dev Blog: Alliance Panel at Fanfest 2012: The Conclusion

First post First post
Author
Delilah Wild
Concordokken Holdings
#1381 - 2012-04-05 14:48:45 UTC
Excellent post. Thank you Foxy.

Slumber Hawks' post from your locked thread bears repeating as well.

Quote:
@foxy,

You missed a couple of points: Cyberbullies ...
- do not see the harm themselfs, unless pointed at it
- only accept authority to stop
- are mostly their own (local) authority
- will seek confirmation that it wasn't that bad
- think the punishment unfair for "just a joke"
- have a more pronounced inner and outercircle of friends
- rely on teamleader to define those circles according to acceptance of teamleader's value of behavior
etc

each of those behaviors have a certain value towards recognising a cyberbully prior to the act(s), but most often, only after the act will one say: ah yes, now i see.

This of coarse stands aside from loners, which you can only recognise from the (small) facts it happend.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1075068#post1075068

Founder, Coalition of Anti-Pirates

Muul Udonii
THORN Syndicate
Northern Coalition.
#1382 - 2012-04-05 15:06:39 UTC
Why didn't CCP remove this comment from the broadcast if they felt so strongly about it?

And is anyone actually shocked that Mittens is a ****? Personally I don't think he did anything out of character and would not punish him one jot for it.
Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1383 - 2012-04-05 17:31:13 UTC
Good. EVE has consequences. He knew better. He's an adult. He'll live.
Abulurd Boniface
Serene Vendetta
#1384 - 2012-04-06 05:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Abulurd Boniface
I hope CCP keeps these thread logs for future reference. They will be invaluable to future sociologists as they research the Emergence of Society and the Discovery of its Boundaries in Virtual Communities at the Start of the 3d Millennium.

The threadnaughts generated by this one single drunken comment and the spill over in different media is a clear indicator of the importance that virtual worlds have in our lives and EVE Online, for us, in particular. It shows that we care about what the boundaries, and consequences, should be for emergent behavior in a virtual world. This is the meta game of the meta game.

The Mittani demonstrates the significance of EVE Online in our lives and how much we care about what goes on in and around the sandbox. For that reason alone CCP should make him an honorary citizen.

Mittens is EVE Online done right. He has offered an apology, that's all he should have done. The guy apparently lost 23 (really?) Mackinaws. So, either he doesn't care about losing ships or he's an idiot for insisting to be a target to people whom he knows are not going to let up. Space isn't big enough to move away from the guys coming after you?

Either way, and I've said it before, it's a bad decision to come into the sandbox while being depressed. It's a spaceships-on-the-internet game, it's not a mental health clinic. Stay away already.

What Mitten's drunk comment has shown especially clearly, is how people will use fake outrage over someone else's perceived hurt to further their own agenda. I'm careful about losing control of my mental capacities in the company of people I don't know, for precisely the reasons that we see unfold here, I have far less respect for those who rejoice at finally having the opportunity to stab the person [and his wife, and his dog] personally only for the political expediency of the day.

Don't bring the tiny violin to tell us how bad the pain emerging from your anal cavity hurts over what some guy said when he was drunk. Your faux rage is worse because you're not even drunk when you're doing it.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Unitas Nusquam Est
VINDICTIVE
#1385 - 2012-04-06 07:36:44 UTC
The beginning of the above post had sense (EVE is important, we do care, we are looking for boundaries). Then it went down the drain, assuming that all or most of the outrage would be abusing someone's perceived hurt to attack one person, instead of actually, well caring about the boundaries.
Darth Gustav
Froosh INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#1386 - 2012-04-06 08:12:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
The beginning of the above post had sense (EVE is important, we do care, we are looking for boundaries). Then it went down the drain, assuming that all or most of the outrage would be abusing someone's perceived hurt to attack one person, instead of actually, well caring about the boundaries.


I like your avatar. I think that's about all I can say about the space above this post that doesn't violate the EULA or the TOS.

Your grammar was good too.

So self-serving, so sad that CCP let this happen and made real ISK doing so.

To be honest any other company would be getting sued by their client for breach of contract. You don't throw drunks at your own bar under the bus.

CCP published the behavior live. CCP violated their own TOS and their own EULA.

An individual is falliable. Corporations are supposed to insulate against that falliability, not expose it and then feign, "Oops!"

I maintain that regardless of the limited culpability of an inebriated individual for an off-color remark, a corporation should be held to much, much higher standards. By asserting that the broadcast was tantamount to their forums, they also assert that the broadcast was moderated in a way becoming of CCP. After all, this is true of their forums. A post such as this would have been wiped out. A FORUM ban may (or may not) have been given. But it would have been handled professionally.

This was not in any way, shape, or form "professional."

I still like your avatar.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Unitas Nusquam Est
VINDICTIVE
#1387 - 2012-04-06 08:14:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
I have no idea why you are talking to me about CCP's responsibility in this as a response to what I posted; the two do not seem related. As before, you seem to labor under the illusion that there's only two sides to the debate and if someone holds one opinion, they hold a bunch of others too. I posted nothing that as far I can see could be construed as defense of CCP or denying that they had their share of the responsibility too?

I am afraid the thought has crossed my mind that you must be Mittani alt - who else but the person in trouble himself could be so hurt by the event and the perception of it being UNFAIR that his response to anything posted (even posts that do not mention him at all) is to find someone else to blame?

Thank you for the kind words though. I quite like how that portrait turned out myself.
Whitehound
#1388 - 2012-04-06 10:29:14 UTC
EVE Online is Tears Online, now with tears by CSM and tears by voters.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Slumber Hawk
Shadow on the moon
#1389 - 2012-04-06 16:01:18 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
EVE Online is Tears Online, now with tears by CSM and tears by voters.


just change tears to graves and we're talking about the same topic.
Darth Gustav
Froosh INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#1390 - 2012-04-06 17:21:53 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
I have no idea why you are talking to me about CCP's responsibility in this as a response to what I posted; the two do not seem related. As before, you seem to labor under the illusion that there's only two sides to the debate and if someone holds one opinion, they hold a bunch of others too. I posted nothing that as far I can see could be construed as defense of CCP or denying that they had their share of the responsibility too?

I am afraid the thought has crossed my mind that you must be Mittani alt - who else but the person in trouble himself could be so hurt by the event and the perception of it being UNFAIR that his response to anything posted (even posts that do not mention him at all) is to find someone else to blame?

Thank you for the kind words though. I quite like how that portrait turned out myself.


You're welcome. It really is a fetching portrait.

My point was just to emphasize that the post you said "went down the drain" did no such thing.

That is a simple matter of perspective. And no, there are not just "two sides."

There are clearly at least three sides. Maybe four if you count the gaming press. Five with the coalition of whine themselves.

1. The Mittani
2. The Wis
3. CCP
4. Gaming Press?
5. Self-serving Rabble

It's obviously more complicated than "two sides."

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Unitas Nusquam Est
VINDICTIVE
#1391 - 2012-04-06 17:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Roll

Nevermind, you either totally missed my point about the sides, or intentionally misinterpreted it. It does not seem you are able to see anything in this except people who agree with you on everything related to it, and "self-serving rabble" who disagree with you on everything. The idea that someone might agree with you on some things and disagree with you on others seems to be completely impossible...

Just remember that you saying it is so does not make it so - not even if you get the final word. It would serve some agendas to make this a Mittani vs the World issue, but that's not what it is.
Darth Gustav
Froosh INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#1392 - 2012-04-06 18:08:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Roll

Nevermind, you either totally missed my point about the sides, or intentionally misinterpreted it. It does not seem you are able to see anything in this except people who agree with you on everything related to it, and "self-serving rabble" who disagree with you on everything. The idea that someone might agree with you on some things and disagree with you on others seems to be completely impossible...

Just remember that you saying it is so does not make it so - not even if you get the final word. It would serve some agendas to make this a Mittani vs the World issue, but that's not what it is.


I was really just trying to explain my response to your post.

How can your reply be that "you either totally missed my point about the sides, or intentionally misinterpreted it?"

I was trying to explain, in the context of your reply about the exceptionally good post about how self-serving many of the loudest voices truly are, why I would reply to your comment with what I did.

Then you changed gears and said that there were more sides and issues and that's fine too.

Now you're saying I apparently don't understand...or that I DELIBERATELY misinterpreted you? Oh really? I think you were quite freaking clear. Evasive, combattive, but clear. Look, all I'm saying is that the post about the self-serving rabble was a good one. I AGREE that there is (limited) individual culpability here. But the circumstances are a complete and total sham. That does not discount that a boundary was crossed. But not just by The Mittani. CCP crossed the exact same boundary for profit. The Mittani did it for lulz.

Apparently even you share a sliver of this sentiment, but you see fit to continue to berate any attempt I make at illuminating this shameful set of circumstances with hyperbole and fallacies. I understand that you may not disagree with everything I might have to say about this, OK? Is that any better? From now on I will preface everything I post with "I understand that some of you may or may not agree with each of these points, and that our collective agreements may also differ on other, as yet unmentioned points."

For somebody who likes to toss around the "last word" euphemism, you sure seem pretty obsessed with it to be honest.

[Edit: TL;DR: That with which you do or do not agree has no impact on the veracity of my claims, and their pertinence both to your specific posts, where quoted, and to the overall tone of this thread.]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Nathaniel Sandalphon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1393 - 2012-04-07 10:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nathaniel Sandalphon
Can we please stop crying (especially Goons and afiliates) abut this CSM issue, its old news…

Muttantani got drunk while wearing the cool kid wizard hat (auction it, am sure you could secure a few votes for the next CSM election) and all of a sudden 10.058 went…how do you say it…POOF? It was more like "fttt" over here but I was far from the "epicenter".

No re-vote, if you don't like, do what your commander in chief told the other guy. Am not good at quoting people but it had something to do with "flesruoy llik"

So kids…what have we learned?
Role Playing in real live while intoxicated is dangerous!!!!

Now go play the serious space ship game and have a beer.
Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1394 - 2012-04-08 18:08:42 UTC
Mugged Yougot wrote:

ConXtionS wrote:
Lets start with your dumb leaders words... "I AM NOT A CYBER BULLY"

Well here is the Dictionary


cyber-


a combining form meaning “computer,” “computer network,” or “virtual reality,” used in the formation of compound words ( cybertalk; cyberart; cyberspace ) and by extension meaning “very modern” ( cyberfashion ).



bul·ly
1    [bool-ee] Show IPA noun, plural -lies, verb, -lied, -ly·ing, adjective, interjection

noun
1.
a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.

So a Cyber Bully is someone who uses a computer to badger or INTIMIDATE smaller or weaker people. Miners cant fight back, and people whose real lives SUCK SO MUCH that they might end their own lives are weaker. So that pretty much sounds right to me.

If you feel badgered or intimidated by the actions of some random idiot residing on the other side of the planet, you should grow some balls. No, really.. Grow some balls. Or quit playing.. That's also an option. The difference between someone being bullied and someone getting **** in a computer-game is that essentially you can stop playing a game, so it's on your terms and in your power to decide weather or not to be a subject of it, while someone being bullied does not have any way of escaping the degrading actions of others. An example of this is humiliating pictures on facebook.

ConXtionS wrote:
Finally, you goons try to act as if your mittens made one small mistake. IT WASNT!

He made all those slides, sent in a prepared speech to be looked over by ccp where he said "If you are a miner we WANT YOU TO KILL YOURSELF bla bla bla"

Here are the facts, not everyone who plays this game is healthy, not everyone is here for YOUR entertainment, and if you catch the right person at the right moment your "GO KILL YOURSELF" bullcrap just might send someone over the edge. An edge that your actions pushed them over...

Oh come on!! If you are trying to decide whether or not to end your life, do you really think it comes down to what some random person said to you in a ******* computer game? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? I'm not defending Mittoni's actions, because joking about suicide is not acceptable in most social situations. Mittoni should have realized that this guy was in an awful situation in his life and thus there are no reason to knock them down even further, but going as far as saying Mittoni might have been the cause of a person killing himself is just ******* ********.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Unitas Nusquam Est
VINDICTIVE
#1395 - 2012-04-08 19:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
^ Without intending this as on a comment on The Mittani's case, has it occurred to you that people who contemplate ending their lives might not be in a state where they are very good at rational thought? Such things are usually decided in a mental, emotional state where things feel irrationally hopeless, and where you are under the illusion that everyone and everything is against you. Adding to such feelings by behaving in a way that seems to confirm the feelings can really matter, even though similar behavior would at worst merely annoy someone who is not at the brink already.
Mugged Yougot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1396 - 2012-04-08 21:02:11 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
^ Without intending this as on a comment on The Mittani's case, has it occurred to you that people who contemplate ending their lives might not be in a state where they are very good at rational thought? Such things are usually decided in a mental, emotional state where things feel irrationally hopeless, and where you are under the illusion that everyone and everything is against you. Adding to such feelings by behaving in a way that seems to confirm the feelings can really matter, even though similar behavior would at worst merely annoy someone who is not at the brink already.
Yes, but this person did not indicate that he wanted to take his own life, thus Mittani's comment were nothing but a bad joke presented at the wrong location. I'm pretty sure Mittani would not make this joke if the victim was standing on a chair in front of him with a rope around his neck. If we all were to tiptoe around each other in fear of making a joke with a subject which someone might be related to, humor would pretty much be dead. What is essential in this case is that a drunk person was standing on a stage wearing a ******* wizard-hat, so I would claim it to be pretty obvious that everything coming out of said person's mouth should be taken with a grain of salt. Mittani made a mistake, we all do, but that does not necessary make him an evil person with intent of inflict pain, chaos and misery upon everyone around him.

Also, what baffles me is that several people are referring to his conversation before the presentation as something that strengthens the case of his "conviction". If anything, this conversation proves the absolute opposite. It proves that his joke was not particularly directed at the victim in order to make him kill himself, but more like a declaration of his IN-GAME enemies.
NekoKitten
Burning Skies
Apocalypse Now.
#1397 - 2012-04-10 18:33:55 UTC
Sweet Goon Tears

Twisted
T-B0NE
Doomheim
#1398 - 2012-04-11 04:17:28 UTC
NekoKitten wrote:
Sweet Goon Tears

Twisted

I love the tastes of goon tears, they taste like cherry karma, please keep those tears coming goonies, they're soooo addictive. Cool

"People pay for what they do, and still more, for what they have allowed themselves to become. And they pay for it simply: by the lives they lead." - Edith Wharton

“Death and destruction are necessary to the health of the world, and therefore as natural, and lovable, as birth and life. Only priests and born cowards moan and weep over dying. Brave men face it with approving nonchalance." - Ragnar Redbeard

T-B0NE
Doomheim
#1399 - 2012-04-11 05:15:28 UTC
Oh and four quick questions if I may...

1. When is Jita supposed to burn?
2. Will I be able to order it on pay per view in Metro?
3. How will doing something pretty much everyone has wished they could do themselves punish CCP for banning your megalomaniac leader?
4. Will Goonswarm have enough players left to pull this off after so many have apparently emorage quit?

“Death and destruction are necessary to the health of the world, and therefore as natural, and lovable, as birth and life. Only priests and born cowards moan and weep over dying. Brave men face it with approving nonchalance." - Ragnar Redbeard

Darth Gustav
Froosh INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#1400 - 2012-04-11 08:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
T-B0NE wrote:
Oh and four quick questions if I may...

1. When is Jita supposed to burn?
2. Will I be able to order it on pay per view in Metro?
3. How will doing something pretty much everyone has wished they could do themselves punish CCP for banning your megalomaniac leader?
4. Will Goonswarm have enough players left to pull this off after so many have apparently emorage quit?


1. Even idiots can count.
2. No.
3. Imagine all the whining from thousands of high-sec bears all barred from hauling/trading. Tears, galore!
4. So now you're suddenly good at math? Somehow I doubt it. See also: Tenal.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom