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CSM 7 - We Should Not Accept This Behavior!!

First post First post
Author
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#321 - 2012-03-28 08:36:13 UTC
In evolutionary psychology and in cognitive neuroscience, patience is studied as a decision-making problem, involving the choice of either a small reward in the short term, or a more valuable reward in the long term. When given a choice, all animals, humans included, are inclined to favour short term rewards over long term rewards. This is despite the often greater benefits associated with long term rewards.

In a 2005 study involving common marmosets and cottontop tamarins, animals of both species faced a self-control paradigm in which individuals chose between taking an immediate small reward and waiting a variable amount of time for a large reward. Under these conditions, marmosets waited significantly longer for food than tamarins. This difference cannot be explained by life history, social behaviour or brain size. It can, however, be explained by feeding ecology: marmosets rely on gum, a food product acquired by waiting for exudate to flow from trees, whereas tamarins feed on insects, a food product requiring impulsive action. Foraging ecology, therefore, may provide a selective pressure for the evolution of self-control.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Steph Wing
No Dukks Given
#322 - 2012-03-28 08:38:03 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
So Issler, how does it feel to basically tell the entire CSM to suck your **** just days before you have to start working with them for a year? Do you feel that this will help you in your goals to make eve a better place for miners?


I too am curious what possessed Issler to run off and make this thread without consulting the rest of the CSM about how to approach MittaniGate. It would have made a lot more sense for them to discuss the situation privately, decide what they were going to do (after seeing what CCP wanted/required out of the situation)) and then make a united public front about the post. Having one of them run off and immediately condemn her fellow CSM member's actions (while arguably morally justifiable to an extent) is not a very politically thought out move.

Is Issler really so quick to stab her fellow CSM in the back? She has to work with the rest of the CSM for a year, and I don't think this is a very good way to start off for her. They probably see her as some kind of rogue element that does whatever she wants for her own purposes. Not a very good first impression.

But, you know, to each their own or whatever.


You mean this isn't the official CSM response?

Wow. I'd assumed it was, since, you know, it has CSM stamped all over it.

Ball = dropped, well done Issler.
Frying Doom
#323 - 2012-03-28 08:38:47 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I thought it was good a couple of them spoke out. I wish they all had rather than just tow the party line.

Especially when the party line seems to be "Duck and Cover"


We've seen the effects of a CSM member acting without thinking. I think it isn't appropriate to immediately rush off and post your first instinct without consulting your co-workers about what happened, what now needs to happen, etc. It just doesn't seem very professional to me, and professionalism from the CSM is what started this whole shebang.

I can see your point if The Mittani had run this past the CSM in the first place we wouldn't be here and here stinks. It would be nice to know the remaining CSM members had morals though.

Currently it just looks like that they can't deal with a crisis with out The Mittani.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Francisco Bizzaro
#324 - 2012-03-28 08:41:22 UTC
This CSM is going places. And they haven't even taken office yet. Looking forward to an eventful year.
Vordak Kallager
Goryn Clade
#325 - 2012-03-28 08:41:55 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
In evolutionary psychology and in cognitive neuroscience, patience is studied as a decision-making problem, involving the choice of either a small reward in the short term, or a more valuable reward in the long term. When given a choice, all animals, humans included, are inclined to favour short term rewards over long term rewards. This is despite the often greater benefits associated with long term rewards.

In a 2005 study involving common marmosets and cottontop tamarins, animals of both species faced a self-control paradigm in which individuals chose between taking an immediate small reward and waiting a variable amount of time for a large reward. Under these conditions, marmosets waited significantly longer for food than tamarins. This difference cannot be explained by life history, social behaviour or brain size. It can, however, be explained by feeding ecology: marmosets rely on gum, a food product acquired by waiting for exudate to flow from trees, whereas tamarins feed on insects, a food product requiring impulsive action. Foraging ecology, therefore, may provide a selective pressure for the evolution of self-control.


I think Hans just ninja-compared Issler to a small marsupial. Cool.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Frying Doom
#326 - 2012-03-28 08:48:49 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
In evolutionary psychology and in cognitive neuroscience, patience is studied as a decision-making problem, involving the choice of either a small reward in the short term, or a more valuable reward in the long term. When given a choice, all animals, humans included, are inclined to favour short term rewards over long term rewards. This is despite the often greater benefits associated with long term rewards.

In a 2005 study involving common marmosets and cottontop tamarins, animals of both species faced a self-control paradigm in which individuals chose between taking an immediate small reward and waiting a variable amount of time for a large reward. Under these conditions, marmosets waited significantly longer for food than tamarins. This difference cannot be explained by life history, social behaviour or brain size. It can, however, be explained by feeding ecology: marmosets rely on gum, a food product acquired by waiting for exudate to flow from trees, whereas tamarins feed on insects, a food product requiring impulsive action. Foraging ecology, therefore, may provide a selective pressure for the evolution of self-control.


I think Hans just ninja-compared Issler to a small marsupial. Cool.

I think the CSM might have evolved to far and are starving to death Big smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#327 - 2012-03-28 08:59:09 UTC
I wasn't trying to make a statement about anyone here, I was simply meditating on the value of patience during times like this. I came across that anecdote and found it interesting.

Besides, monkeys are totally awesome. Especially little ones with pouches.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Frying Doom
#328 - 2012-03-28 09:03:03 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I wasn't trying to make a statement about anyone here, I was simply meditating on the value of patience during times like this. I came across that anecdote and found it interesting.

Besides, monkeys are totally awesome. Especially little ones with pouches.

Thank you for your speedy clarification. And yes monkey are really cool.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#329 - 2012-03-28 09:05:11 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:



Bolton didn't end up calling for someones IRL death.

And it being a daily occurrence does not make it right.

This is basic stuff you are getting wrong.


No, you're naive.

Calling for someones death and harrasing someone is totally different. He didn't say "Go round his house and kill him".

I agree, it wasn't right but you're taking on not just the entire of null sec but the larger gaming community. This sort of stuff happens all the time. You don't think just because this was the first time someone said to do this publicly its not been said 1000 times before? Some people just play EVE to make sure you have a bad day.

So what is you're reaction to people user the 'N' word in both comms and local all over nullsec? Putting porn links (and actual stuff that might offend) in chat?

Your little witch hunt and 5000 post threads may have unintended consequences for EVE.

michaelthered wrote:




wis has been investigated by CCP...he is "not" a botter, confirmed. He runs a ridiculous multi screen setup I can't even begin to comprehend. He's got a blog somewhere that has a picture of it. You can see it for yourself.


It doesn't mean he isn't a massive troll does it? This witch hunt is not only ridiculous but utterly naive.
Frying Doom
#330 - 2012-03-28 09:12:41 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:


Calling for someones death and harrasing someone is totally different. He didn't say "Go round his house and kill him".


No he told a crowd and all the people watching remotely to make him so depressed he would kill himself. This was not in game spam but even then if you said it in game to a group of people so public, maybe you would deserve banning for that. Threatening someone with an in-game effect like shooting someones ship is one thing but when it comes with the attachment that this is so they kill them selves in RL that's something different.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#331 - 2012-03-28 09:30:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Frying Doom wrote:

I can see your point if The Mittani had run this past the CSM in the first place we wouldn't be here and here stinks. It would be nice to know the remaining CSM members had morals though.

Currently it just looks like that they can't deal with a crisis with out The Mittani.


Everyone needs to step back here for a moment and understand that while group discussion is important, and teamwork necessary to work on behalf of the players to get things accomplished with CCP, the CSM at the end of the day is 14 individual human beings.

Those that want instant gratification regarding a big CSM statement are going to have to wait. Everyone needs to talk about it, and frankly not all of us have heard all sides of the story. This is EVE. Nothing it ever as it seems.

Personally, without having been at Fan Fest, without having ever spoken to The Wis, without knowing what the CSM / CCP involvement is in the Alliance presentation preparation, I'm just not comfortable coming out and waving a sword with righteous anger without having listened to the full story so I can assess what the problem here is, and think about how we can prevent it from happening again. CSM7 haven't even taken office yet, we're still getting set up.

I really appreciate those of you in this thread that have shown respect for the fact that this is all happening literally while many of the CSM7 members are in planes travelling. Please give everyone a day or so to get home, get paperwork in, get into the conversation, and than we can get to work.

Its extremely premature to go doomsdaying about how we "can't deal with a crisis", and its certainly not fair to accuse those of us who want to handle this the right way as somehow lacking in morals.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#332 - 2012-03-28 09:38:51 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

I can see your point if The Mittani had run this past the CSM in the first place we wouldn't be here and here stinks. It would be nice to know the remaining CSM members had morals though.

Currently it just looks like that they can't deal with a crisis with out The Mittani.


Everyone needs to step back here for a moment and understand that while group discussion is important, and teamwork necessary to work on behalf of the players to get things accomplished with CCP, the CSM at the end of the day is 14 individual human beings.

Those that want instant gratification regarding a big CSM statement are going to have to wait. Everyone needs to talk about it, and frankly not all of us have heard all sides of the story. This is EVE. Nothing it ever as it seems.

Personally, without having been at Fan Fest, without having ever spoken to The Wis, without knowing what the CSM / CCP involvement is in the Alliance presentation preparation, I'm just not comfortable coming out and waving a sword with righteous anger without having listened to the full story so I can assess what the problem here is, and think about how we can prevent it from happening again. CSM7 haven't even taken office yet, we're still getting set up.

I really appreciate those of you in this thread that have shown respect for the fact that this is all happening literally while many of the CSM7 members are in planes travelling. Please give everyone a day or so to get home, get paperwork in, get into the conversation, and than we can get to work.

Its extremely premature to go doomsdaying about how we "can't deal with a crisis", and its certainly not fair to accuse those of us who want to handle this the right way as somehow lacking in morals.


This.

Thank you.
RougeOperator
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#333 - 2012-03-28 09:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: RougeOperator
knobber Jobbler wrote:


Calling for someones death and harrasing someone is totally different. He didn't say "Go round his house and kill him".



No he basically did exactly that, he said find him and drive him to suicide. Your just quibbling semantics when the end result would have been similar had the community not gotten up in arms about it.

Its not funny. Its not excusable.



And FYI a witch hunt would imply we are trying to get an innocent person. I got news for you...Hes on tape clear as day.

**Space wizards are real, they can make 10058 votes vanish. "and for a moment i hurd 10k goons cry out, then silence" **

LtTysander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2012-03-28 09:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: LtTysander
RougeOperator wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:


Calling for someones death and harrasing someone is totally different. He didn't say "Go round his house and kill him".



No he basically did exactly that, he said find him and drive him to suicide. Your just quibbling semantics when the end result would have been similar had the community not gotten up in arms about it.

Its not funny. Its not excusable.



And FYI a witch hunt would imply we are trying to get an innocent person. I got news for you...Hes on tape clear as day.


No, it is two completely different things you god damned idiot. Stop trying to equate the two it just makes you look like a kneejerking, reactionary fool.

Here lets outline the scenario for you to make it very simple to understand:

1.) A person ridicules another (about an in game persona) and makes a distasteful comment about harassing him (note: no such harassment has occurred) that was in no way meant to be serious (if you had a modicum of intelligence) and has apologized for it, profusely.

2.)A person that is threatening to kill another and is actively trying to get this accomplished. Of which some people in this forum are guilty of committing against Mittani at this very moment. (Yes he is getting death threats)

Try and spot the difference.
Steph Wing
No Dukks Given
#335 - 2012-03-28 09:53:06 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:


Calling for someones death and harrasing someone is totally different. He didn't say "Go round his house and kill him".



No he basically did exactly that, he said find him and drive him to suicide. Your just quibbling semantics when the end result would have been similar had the community not gotten up in arms about it.

Its not funny. Its not excusable.


Since when has Goonswarm ever been funny or excusable?
buck herrick
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#336 - 2012-03-28 09:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: buck herrick
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
[quote=Frying Doom]
I can see your point if The....etc., etc. (shortened to avoid unecessary screen real-estate waste - not to mis-quote or remove context).

Personally, without having been at Fan Fest, without having ever spoken to The Wis, without knowing what the CSM / CCP involvement is in the Alliance presentation preparation, I'm just not comfortable coming out and waving a sword with righteous anger without having listened to the full story so I can assess what the problem here is, and think about how we can prevent it from happening again. CSM7 haven't even taken office yet, we're still getting set up.

I really .....etc., etc.



I have no opinion that i wish to post here on the future of the CSM, its delegates, goats, FW, Goons, BoB, Miners, Mackinaws or Issler D or, indeed, the matter at hand. What happens happens.

Perhaps i should not post at all, but what the hell, the worst that can happen is goons tell me i am irrelevant as an NPC ALT or circle quote me until i am reduced to a gibbering, depressed, mentally unstable shell of a man. However, i do have a point of clarity and I find myself compelled to poast.

"having ever spoken to The Wis"

How is this relevant ? infact speaking to him should not even enter into the debate/conversation/thought process. "The Wis" whoever he may be is not the issue. He may be the trigger of the whole sorry chain of events, but other than that speaking to him serves no purpose.....unless
[tinfoil] he is to be spoken to to provide an alibi or a cover story......[/tinfoil]

Seriously no one person's state of mind is of relevance. What is relevant is the reference to it, whether it accurate or not. however i also believe that context and circumstance play an equally large part here.

Just my 2 cents. Gonna sit back now and try to order a new F5 button.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#337 - 2012-03-28 09:59:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
knobber Jobbler wrote:
No, you're naive. Calling for someones death and harrasing someone is totally different. He didn't say "Go round his house and kill him".


Come on this is sounding like some pretty pathetic wriggling legalize now. He called on his followers to troll the guy into suicide! It'd be like some church minister in the real world calling on the congregation to camp outside somebodies house with signs about how they and their family were going to hell! Its harrassment and you can't really claim it isn't.

Is it legally actionable in the real world? Probably not. And neither should it be.
But its certainly actionable within the terms of the game company's rules of conduct and certainly can be used as a brutal example of the leader of the csm not being able to be a good ambassador of the game to fellow players and the news media.

And it is going to have consequences on Alexander Gianturco's real life job prospects in the future believe me. I did a contract last year for a bank, had a background check done on my name that unearthed youtube video of me at Fanfest giving a presentation as an anarchist - and another one of me hitting some orcs with a rubber larp sword. "Whats this about?" (I was asked) made for an interesting conversation but ultimately not a problem with me getting the job. Imagine for a moment if I had a youtube video of me drunkenly calling on members of a MMO to troll some apparently depressed guy into suicide? - I'd have been booted out of the door in minutes.

And this is a problem now for Eve itself. I don't want my next background check to involve a question like "Oh you play that game where the drunken american's try to harrass people into suicide right?"

knobber Jobbler wrote:
I agree, it wasn't right but you're taking on not just the entire of null sec but the larger gaming community. This sort of stuff happens all the time. You don't think just because this was the first time someone said to do this publicly its not been said 1000 times before? Some people just play EVE to make sure you have a bad day.


See thats exactly the argument that Aris Bakhtanians made about casual and persuasive sexism being core to the "fighting game community" in the recent cross assault event. http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012/02/is-pervasive-sexism-holding-the-professional-fighting-game-community-back.ars

By arguing this stuff happens all the time and cannot be held to account you are making precisely the same claim Bakhtanias does and it really won't wash for a game universe like Eve that is trying to go forward and expand and attract new players. There isn't a place in this game for people that call on their followers to troll people into suicide on stage at fanfest.

knobber Jobbler wrote:
So what is you're reaction to people user the 'N' word in both comms and local all over nullsec? Putting **** links (and actual stuff that might offend) in chat?


I'll tell you right now. You come to Hek tonight where I'm going to be and start messing up local chat with racist/homophobic/hate language and I will petition you. If you keep doing it you will be banned under the terms of eula and tos. I have done this before and I will do it again because I don't believe this kind of behaviour is conducive to a healthy game environment for any of the players. Just because you have convinced yourself that this kind of vile stuff is the norm for whatever society you operate inside doesn't suddenly make it an acceptable part of the game. And this is really where Alexander Gianturco messed up big time - he was acting as if his organization had already "culturally assimilated" eve online and this stuff would be accepted by the populous. He was wrong.

knobber Jobbler wrote:
Your little witch hunt and 5000 post threads may have unintended consequences for EVE.


If those "unintended consequences" are that we demonstrate to the gaming world at large that though Eve is an absolutely ruthless pvp game where you can lose all your possessions in an instant if you mess up it can still be a place where you will not be subjected to continuous out of character harrassment and urging to suicide then frankly ... good. If the consequence is that Alexander Gianturco is forced to resign and urges goons to quit the game then its on hilm really. But the best consequence would be he grows up a bit and realizes that he's welcome to remain in this game and game world by learning to differentiate between players and characters / people and spaceships and understands in the future that calling on people to be trolled into suicide is completely beyond the pale.

Quote:
It doesn't mean he isn't a massive troll does it? This witch hunt is not only ridiculous but utterly naive.


I listened to the mining barge guy on Eve Radio last night. He doesn't sound like a troll to me, just a guy who got targetted by goons and had a letter taken out of context for the purpose of a fanfest mocking by a drunken powertripper using his CSM chair fame and alliance panel seat as a bully pulpit to enhance harrassment.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#338 - 2012-03-28 10:00:12 UTC
RougeOperator wrote:
No he basically did exactly that, he said find him and drive him to suicide. Your just quibbling semantics when the end result would have been similar had the community not gotten up in arms about it.
.


You can say this over and over again all you want, but the 3 day gap between his stupid joke and the community getting all "up in arms" is always going to be there, laughing in your face, having a beer with the Monday chatlog of The Wis seeming genuinely confused about what people are even on about (the harassment must have been *that bad*!).

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Frying Doom
#339 - 2012-03-28 10:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


Those that want instant gratification regarding a big CSM statement are going to have to wait. Everyone needs to talk about it, and frankly not all of us have heard all sides of the story. This is EVE. Nothing it ever as it seems.

Personally, without having been at Fan Fest, without having ever spoken to The Wis, without knowing what the CSM / CCP involvement is in the Alliance presentation preparation, I'm just not comfortable coming out and waving a sword with righteous anger without having listened to the full story so I can assess what the problem here is, and think about how we can prevent it from happening again. CSM7 haven't even taken office yet, we're still getting set up.

I really appreciate those of you in this thread that have shown respect for the fact that this is all happening literally while many of the CSM7 members are in planes travelling. Please give everyone a day or so to get home, get paperwork in, get into the conversation, and than we can get to work.

Its extremely premature to go doomsdaying about how we "can't deal with a crisis", and its certainly not fair to accuse those of us who want to handle this the right way as somehow lacking in morals.

Ok I will admit my statement was over the top, especially with you guys not even set up yet. as to "Cant deal with a crisis" that was an it appears which left by its self is what it looks like. Two threats totaling over 300 pages and no response, it would appear your real lives have gotten in the way, fair enough. We probably do expect to much from a voluntary non-paid group TBH, but with the only thing released at all from the CSM looking like a duck and cover you will get flak from nutters like me.

On the moral issue yes it would have been nice for a generic platitude like "Threats involving real life consequences are not acceptable." It says nothing about anyone's guilt or innocence, so if later you determine it was a CCP act for instance (I doubt it was but its an example) you can still say Real Life threats are not acceptable.

I actually started on this on the other foot, it was so tiny the first time I posted I believed it was nothing, and it really isn't anything ( I went to sleep on page 3 of the forum and woke up somewhere in the 60's) except now it is so large with so many media references to it, by the time the CSM puts out a statement this might and probably will have a life of its own.

So I too must apologize for my behavior towards the CSM, you are trying your hardest. I'm not in the CSM so I can't resign from it.

Edit: I could go on to say you managed to slam what I said pretty quickly, then go on a rant about one law for players and one for the CSM but I wont.

Thank you for saying something at all.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Thomas Kugisa
Doomheim
#340 - 2012-03-28 10:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Thomas Kugisa
Issler Dainze wrote:
As a CSM 7 member I am extremely disappointed with Mittens behavior at Fanfest this year.

...

We in the CSM owe Eve a much higher standard of behavior!

Issler Dainze

if you only try hard enough maybe you can become the new spaceship queen!