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Combat frigate changes for Inferno

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Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#341 - 2012-05-12 12:10:36 UTC
i have to agree with the people who are raising concern about fixing only a few frigs at a time and start with the most popular ones.

i believe it would be easier to achieve a good balanced t1-frigate "block" which is consistent in itself, when you firstly figure out what they should be able to do (and please do not apply arbitrary roles which sound cool but do not exist in eve) and then
balance each member inside of the role and the roles between each other accordingly.
will be quite a task, but thats the only way to build a solid foundation to further build on ( bigger ships, faction, t2, modules active vs passive tanking, etc.)

making little things here and there will cost you only a lot of time but in the end wont get you anywhere. there a some major problems which need to solved (and the idea to kill the tiers is a good start). little tweaks are good when the foundation is placed, but you need to start somewhere. if there a not enough resources to do this for inferno, then dont do it.
the argument not enough time was ok for crucible, but at this point ccp needs to start taking/making time and resources to get the jobs done.
there has to be a swich from the "starting anew" to a stable new ccp with proper routines.

please dont get me wrong, you guys are doing a good job an i love you for that, but balancing is a delicate thing and needs to be handled carefully. in this case starting only with a few frigs seems wrong. do it with the whole bunch and get things started.


concerning the roles, it should look something like that (similar to what other peoples allready remarked here)

there are combat roles:
- long-range bam
- fast strike, skirmish aka mobile and fragile damage, possible tacklers?
- e-war & e-support
- inyo' face brawling
- (maybe) tanky bricks

there are non-combat roles:
- mining (year, i think mining frigs are valid, since going for cruisers helps you in no way to get into mining barges. my mining alt stayed in his tormentor till he had the skills for a retriever. and by that time a had mined enough with that frig to buy a retriever plus fitting, maybe change the needs for the procurer, because right now there is no real need for that because half a day later you can fly a retriever)
- transport, though not a classical role for a frig
- exploration; scanning, hacking, salvaging,...


either you asign a role for each frig of each race, or you mix and match according to gusto and racial flavor, though every race should have a possibility to try everything out.
inside the roles, ships should reflect what defines the races, eg long range caldari uses missiles, while amarr goes for laz0rs. you get the idea.
to make the t1-frigs less specialized and predictable, one could make them belonging to two, more roles. let the fittings be the limiting factor.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#342 - 2012-05-12 17:10:50 UTC
I'm really not sold on this whole role-based revamp - it seems like an operation in shoehorning a diverse range of ships into 4 straightjackets.

Every time I read Ytterbium talking about "Combat, Attack, Bombardment and Support" all I see is "Paladin, Shaman, Rogue, Warrior, Death Knight". Is this really the direction that Eve's ship balance needs to take?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Talin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2012-05-12 23:01:27 UTC
I personally think this rebalancing idea is one of the best idea's I've seen come out of CCP in quiet a long time. I personally fully support it, especially as you move up into the Higher Echelons of ships. I love new ships, and I especially love new rolls giving to older, flagging ships. Ships that while great, could really use more Hardpoints and Hitpoints to go with it.

In that mind though... I'm a Gallente Purist. So I really only care about what happens to their ships. To be honest though, can I say, and I hope I'm not alone in this, but frankly... in my mind 'Repair Amount bonuses' are really a useless in the long compared to 'Resist bonuses'.

Frankly for any Combat Classified (Especially the Gallente ships though) ship into the future really needs to have Resist Bonuses, and not Repair Bonuses.

In my eyes, a good Combat ship, and especially and Incursus would look like this:


INCURSUS:


New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 5% bonus to armor resists per level
Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, no launchers
Fittings: 45 PWG, 135 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400 / 450 / 500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 / 180 s / 1.55
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 340 / 3.15 / 1028000 / 3.0 s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 600 / 4
Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 42
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#344 - 2012-05-13 09:51:40 UTC
Armour resists is an Amarr bonus, except for specialised classes. There's nothing wrong with boost/rep bonuses in principle, CCP just needs to make sure that they're worthwhile (10%/level would be a good start) and that the ship has the slots, fittings and hull stats to make use of them.

As ever, balance ships, not bonuses.
ACE81
Sacred Sacrifice
#345 - 2012-05-14 11:52:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ACE81
Role names I would use.

Direct combat - Emphasis on versatility
Long Range Combat - Emphasis on range
Tackler\interceptor - Emphasis on speed
Logistic support - Emphasis on fleet support
Electronic Warfare - Emphasis on EW
Intel\prober - Emphasis on finding things

I like the Idea of 3 turrets on the Merlin but then it should be able to fit 2-3 unbonused rocket launchers as well.

I too would rather have 4th hi slot and 2 lows instead of 3 Hi's and 3 lows (sounds too much like a rifter).

To elaborate further on the Merlin I feel the rockets help the turrets in filling in for their short comings, examples would be like on a blaster fit enemy fly's out of range well the rockets will still make hits till you can get back in range or you can switch to longer range ammo.
Stealthshot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#346 - 2012-05-14 12:25:53 UTC
The new Tormentor is really nice a good balance of strong capacitor, utility high for a nuet, drones and enough lows for a decent active tank. Not much dps and its easy to kite but i can live with that. Within scram range it can tank another t1 frig for long enough for the drones to weaken them to the point that a quick burst of OH conflag can break through anything the nuet cant shut down.

Essentially a mini geddon nice work ccp much better then the earlier iteration.
Defiantly keep the gun cap bonus it allows guns and scam to be active while a new booster charge is loading very important to stop things getting away.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#347 - 2012-05-15 18:34:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


RIFTER:

  • Unchanged bonuses
  • Unchanged Slot layout: 4 H, 3 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, 2 launchers
  • Unchanged fittings: 37 PWG, 125 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 450 / 400 / 400
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 240 / 180 s / 1.33
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 355 / 3.19 / 1067000 / 3.19 s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 22.5km / 660 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 8 Ladar
  • Signature radius: 35



So Since the Rifter is OP and made of winsauce, we will make it stay the same way. No, wait, we will give it more shield, armor and structure. At first we thought on reducing it's capacitor, but then we said "screw it" and we gave it back. With an improved recharge time.

Cool, CCP, cool.
Luscius Uta
#348 - 2012-05-16 09:34:08 UTC
I haven't looked at all the details, but (as usually is the case) CCP changed some things for the better and some for the worse.

Punisher - damage bonus is nice, I guess we'll see less AC-fitted ones, as you won't need to fit it with ACs to have a chance against a Rifter...or at least I hope so

Tormentor - no comment, I've never flown one

Merlin - +1 turret slot is good, keeping optimal range bonus is also good, but I would still prefer shield resistance bonus over damage bonus, at least if an additional midslot isn't added (which probably won't, as 5 mids is too much for a T1 frig)

Incursus - kinda meh on this one... usefulness of armour repair bonus is doubtful, but at least it's 10% instead of usual 7.5%...slot layout allows you to fit dual reps and a cap booster which can make it very tough

Tristan - much like Merlin, it needs 3 turret slots.

Rifter - it already is made of win and dipped with awesomesauce. Much like Holy Books, it should be kept unchanged. How about improving Breacher instead?

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
MortisLegati
Everything Went Black
#349 - 2012-05-16 19:17:41 UTC
I like the removal of the range bonus on the Merlin and the increased damage. The increased damage means it can compete for damage up close, but it can also put out significant damage at longer ranges, since long-range ammo seems to suck DPS away from ships like a silly straw. (Perhaps almost ludicrously so.)
Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
#350 - 2012-05-16 20:18:37 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
So Since the Rifter is OP and made of winsauce, we will make it stay the same way. No, wait, we will give it more shield, armor and structure. At first we thought on reducing it's capacitor, but then we said "screw it" and we gave it back. With an improved recharge time.

Cool, CCP, cool.


Yeah, but you have to look at this in context- all the ships got an HP bump.

BEFORE:

1st. Punisher; 1251 HP (391/469/391) (Average x1.11)
2nd. Merlin; 1133 HP (469/351/313) (Average x1.00)
3rd. Rifter; 1078 HP (391/351/336) (Average x0.96)
4th. Incursus; 1049 HP (313/368/368) (Average x0.93)

AFTER:

1st. Incursus; 1350 HP (400/450/500) (Average x1.06)
2nd. Punisher; 1300 HP (350/500/450) (Average x1.02)
3rd. Rifter; 1250 HP (450/400/400) (Average x0.98)
4th. Merlin; 1200 HP (500/350/350) (Average x0.94)

Relatively speaking, the Rifter is almost exactly where it was before. Merlin got nerfed and Incursus got a huuuuge buff.
Kenn
McKae Industries and Research
#351 - 2012-05-17 05:22:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenn
Quote:
As mentioned in the ship balancing Dev Blog, Inferno will be the starting point for a much needed ship overhaul. This post is to discuss planned changes for frigates before we move forward with Singularity testing.


We want to start with Tech 1 frigates, then move our way up as time passes, which means:

• There will be no skill change for Inferno. Your destroyer and battlecruiser skills are safe for now
• Battlecruisers will have to wait until we have rebalanced frigates and destroyers to have something clean to compare them with


Plans for the frigate class (remember all of this is still WIP for the time being):

• Split and re-purpose frigates into Combat, Attack, Bombardment and Support roles (includes revamping mining frigates into this)
• Have a look at Rookie frigates to make them more versatile but less efficient than revamped frigates
• On the power ladder, tech 1 frigates should be less effective than faction / tech 2, but more forgiving and flexible with their
fittings


I am dreading a whole lot contained in that quote. This idea of specializing every thing creeps me out. Why not just hardwire the ships and forget the modules? Simply make them what you wanted them to be all along and take away the choices of loading
them out to begin with.

Tweaking the ships to be more in line is understandable but this shouldn't have been an issue except the game got mucked
around with and the dynamics are out of whack. Players who spent a lot of time gearing their characters with a set of skills and
a ship load out are about to get pooed on. I see nothing good to come of this.

You will do what you want but I vote fail. Can this be pulled off in a positive way? Yes but I have long lost faith.
Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#352 - 2012-05-17 13:14:16 UTC

I have been thinking about the ship lines and trying to define some working model. This is what I have currently for the pure combat vessels, I will need some feedback for further development.


Line: Bombardment (T1)
Motto: Steady as she goes
Description: These ships primarly use delayed damage weapons (drones and missiles), because of this the bombardment line will require a good continious tank, also speed isn't very important because bombardment ships don't need to keep a target at a certain range to keep their DPS up. These ships will likely be highly used for mission running.

Line: Combat (T1)
Motto: Assemble the fleet
Description: Bonusses for recieving logi and long range weapons. Optimized for group/fleet combat.

Line: Strike (T1)
Motto: Strike hard and die fast
Description: These ships live on the Edge, they have very high DPS and low EHP. They compensate their low EHP with speed and/or range. The goal is to kill the target before it can shoot back. See Tier3 BC.

Line: Attack (T1)
Motto: Eye of the tiger
Description: Bonusses for high peak active local tanking and propulsion jamming. These ships are optimized for 1 vs 1 combat, able to tank ships of the same size, while grinding them down. Should also have bonusses for propulsion jamming and active local tanking. They should catch their targets and prevent them from running away. Targeting range isn't important.



Line: Breach (T2)
Motto: Crashing the Blockade
Description: These are T2 bombardment ships, they have an additional tank and gank bonus. The gank bonus is big enough to allow a reduction of weapon slots so that more high slots remain for utility modules. They also have a role bonus of being immune to non-targeted interdiction.

Line: Command (T2)
Motto: Boosting the Fleet, now!
Description: Based upon the T1 Combat line, these T2 ships enchance their fleet role by mounting gang links. The bigger the ships the more gang links it can mount. Each fleet should have more then one so that their is always a backup and/or decoy.

Line: Covert (T2)
Motto: Hit and run
Description: Mostly based upon the strike line, but using cov cloaks. They have high peak DPS, no tank but use covert cloaks for protection.

Line: Intercept (T2)
Motto: You are going nowhere
Description: Under this line fall all interceptors and interdictors. And provided the target is of the same size or smaller it will have a good chance of taking the prey out.






Una Thea
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#353 - 2012-05-18 08:12:39 UTC
I have three things to express here.


First off, for the Incursus. Love the idea with the repair bonus to be honest - will be interesting. I suggest a frigate for Minmatar going the same way there with an active tank bonus to keep things fair. :)

Secondly. Keep in mind the 'speciality' of every race:

  • Amarr: Buffer armor.
  • Caldari: Buffer shield.
  • Gallante: Active repair.
  • Minmatar: Shield boost.

One can also start talking about weaponary tradition for the races (Amarr love lasers first, something second and so on).

Thirdly and last. I've seen some talk about being able to choose how you assemble your own frigate - what bonuses you want and I have one answer, no! Leave that to the T3 frigates that will perhaps one day see the light. :)

Over all it doesn't look bad - but I have to address my worries as well as others on the lack of work being able to put into the ship balancing. But that will perhaps be fixed in the near future after the Inferno patch is out and running? :)


Best regards,
Una Thea.

Ps. The role of a sniper might need to be looked at to become a more viable option perhaps - though it's a difficult thing to find a solution to (I'm talking about the long-long range ships that go around 150km-/+).
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#354 - 2012-05-18 17:50:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Here is my feedback on frigates. Hope it helps in determining what to do with them.
T1 frigates have some good hulls:
1) Scanning frig until you can fly Covert Ops.
2) Rifter/Vigil for speed: something cheap to blow through gates for travel or to cyno a ship
Other than a vigil or rifter for travel, T1 frigates are not for experienced players.

More good hulls with T2 frigates:
1) Covert Ops
2) Stealth Bomber
3) Assault ships, now that they have been improved
4) Interceptors
5) Faction frigates seems like good platforms in general.

-- Most T1 frigates are not worth flying, nor is the EAF line. T1 cruisers are preferred to T1 frigates when cost and risk are the issues.

I recommend more medium slots and strong EW bonuses to EAF. Also, the ability to fit Covert Ops cloaks to follow the Recon line more closely. I recommend more speed and agility bonuses to the rest of the frigates. Cyno bonuses to cycle time and fuel amount. Cloak during cyno with a Cyno cloak module similar to the Improved Cloak, which cloaks the cyno too, sounds like an interesting idea. A covert smartbomb only for frigates to clear the field of wrecks and debris, or to damage cloaked ships within range.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Sidra Necia
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#355 - 2012-05-21 08:02:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sidra Necia
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Here are some changes just baked from the oven.
MERLIN:

Again, good comments regarding the ship general role and range bonus, so it has been replaced with the old good school shield resistance bonus to turn it back into the heavy tackler / brawler you all learned to care about and love fondly.


  • New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 5% to shield resistances per level
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175 s / 2
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.6 / 997000 / 3.36 s



I don't like these changes bth... Attention
Rockets/missiles are missing !Shocked

I would make the following changes to the merlin:

3 turret hardpoints
3 launcher hardpoints
4 high slots as usual.

5% shield resists + 5% Bonus to small hybirds damage + 10% bonus to rocket rate of fire.

Why ? :
This makes the Merlin less specialized and more versatile.
One would have to choose between launchers and blasters, thus trading off between melting dps or range.Twisted
This dilemma makes eve ships more interesting!

The bonus to rockets is essential to raise it's dps to be compatible with the other frigs in PvP.
If one chooses to make a long-er range frig.

If you take away it's launchers you make it weaker against rifters.
And currently I don't see many of the changed frigs that could contest against the rifter.
Because the rifter would "kite" it at 5k and still apply dieceent dps to kill it.

In PvE one could fit rockets and not have to worry about hitting approach all the time.
Sort of like a mini drake. (obviously with mini dps and mini tank).
And it gives new players a good vibe of Caldari. I remember running missions in the Merlin and I had a blast with launchers Big smile

Again if you make the frigs more specialized, espessialy taking away rockets/missiles from caldari, you dumb down the game. A little variation is highly nessesary to keep it interesting. Pirate
Una Thea
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#356 - 2012-05-21 15:42:31 UTC
Hmm.. I have to address my concerns about the Merlin - it looks and feel kind of over powered instead of balanced with the shield resistance bonus.

And I'd like to comment on Sidra Necia's idea about giving the Merlin an extra bonus for rockets - rather unfair regarding other frigates. :)


Best regards,
Una Thea.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#357 - 2012-05-21 16:19:10 UTC
Why are people fuming at getting a Caldari gun frigate that seems to be able to slug it out with the best of them?

Until it is known what is planned for the awesome (yes, awesome .. rock Kestrel pwns!) Kestrel and the rest of the frigs then complaining that the Merlin doesn't have missiles is ridiculous. Think about it, with Merlin being made into an almost pure gunboat, there is a very high probability that its sibling, the Kestrel, will be made into a god with the self-propelled sticks ..
ACE81
Sacred Sacrifice
#358 - 2012-05-21 21:33:50 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Why are people fuming at getting a Caldari gun frigate that seems to be able to slug it out with the best of them?

Until it is known what is planned for the awesome (yes, awesome .. rock Kestrel pwns!) Kestrel and the rest of the frigs then complaining that the Merlin doesn't have missiles is ridiculous. Think about it, with Merlin being made into an almost pure gunboat, there is a very high probability that its sibling, the Kestrel, will be made into a god with the self-propelled sticks ..



One can only Hope!! :D
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#359 - 2012-05-21 21:50:42 UTC
I just don't see why ccp is messing with the tier 3 frigates at all. With so many other ships out of whack this is just odd.

The rifter is no longer king of frigates after the hybrid and rocket buffs. All the frigates are currently balanced the only thing these changes will do is throw the balance off.

Merlins and likely a double rep incursus are going to be over powered against frigates.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#360 - 2012-05-22 04:15:25 UTC
Because by starting with the top tiers one can establish a "maximum" as it were a line that should not be crossed by subsequent changes .. it is (I suspect) why the Rifter got almost no change as it represented the near perfect balance between power, versatility and noob friendliness - in other words: it was/is acting as a base line for the all-encompassing balance sweep.

Personally glad that we get more ships to fly without having to endure being laughed at for bringing the odd-balls out .. as Amarr only I have only ever really the Punisher and Crucifier (pre Slicer goodness), the rest of the ships might as well not even have existed, which is bonkers if you ask me Smile

PS: DR Incursus will be a beast if possible to fit .. if it is too strong then it is a simple matter of tweaking its numbers (fitting, cap, etc.)