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Faction war and small scale pvp improvement

Author
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#41 - 2011-12-28 19:42:14 UTC
I'm still against any form of automated system that gives automatic intel with no work. Updating the map would be a good way to go about this, perhaps have the systems that are contested blink or change color if they had a plex taken within the last hour. But beyond that, everything should be in the hands of the players.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#42 - 2011-12-29 00:19:45 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
That's WAY MORE than knowing where the fighting is occurring. I would almost keep the intel open ended and let the militia coordinate on their own.Like if a militia had a channel specifically for plexing. I think CCP is trying to stay away from NPCs as much as possible and get that kinda stuff into the hands of the players. I don't think there's ever been someone's job to just check all contested systems and see if there's someone currently plexing there.

IF there was to be an NPC plex reporting channel, then I'd also have less intel in that it. Maybe just letting you have a real time list of what's contested or...... where there's plexes that are currently being run with updates around 10-15 minutes. From an RP standpoint, you could say that the intel/comm routers in low sec are old and in disrepair so that they don't give EXACT intel.

I'm still not sure if I would want NPC updates though. Maybe if FW gets some sort of Sov system where we can install upgraded comm relays, then sure. Otherwise, I dunno.



I would have them remove the npcs from plexes and leave it to the players to defend entirely. (thats the other part of the proposal)

But if the enemy attacks our military complex then we should know about it. I agree no one wants the job to check all the systems to see if someone is attacking our complex. Why wouldn't the complex that is being attacked report it? It doesn't make any sense at all. Why not let us know so we can try to quickly react. Make the game dynamic and fast paced! Just think about it.

Again the purpose of this proposal is to have eve offer something for people who don't have hours on end looking for fights. Eve offers lots of opportunities for those who like to "hunt" for hours waiting for a fight. It offers very little for those who don't want to wait hours at a computer screen hoping something will happen and often leaving disappointed.

I do not want to change all of eve around. I just want *one* mechanic that brings about frequent quality small scale pvp. FW plexing would do very well. If you like warping around hunting you still could. You can do that in fw or in null sec or as a pirate. That is basically all the game offers now.

I joined a militia that is at war for a huge faction! They should tell me where the fighting is going on not just tell me "Go wander around see what you can find." Imagine if you joined world war 2 (for any side) and they said "ok take your gun and wander around the world looking for a fight."


This sort of change may not be for everyone. But the thing is it would provide a something you simply can't get in eve now: frequent quality small scale pvp. By adding something new to what we can do in the sandbox eve will attract more players and keep existing players who may get tired of constantly warping alt scouts around.


Anyway just think about it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#43 - 2011-12-29 05:13:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Super Chair wrote:
I'm still against any form of automated system that gives automatic intel with no work. Updating the map would be a good way to go about this, perhaps have the systems that are contested blink or change color if they had a plex taken within the last hour. But beyond that, everything should be in the hands of the players.



Taking an hour to update? That hardly sounds fast paced or dynamic. I mean if we want a mechanic in the game where we find out some gang may be in a system so we then all take a half hour to ship up and then when we arrive they see we shipped up and so they either disperse or ship up even higher (leading to no fights and allot of smack talk in local) then the one hour delay sounds good. But really doesn't eve already offer this - in droves?

Why not have a faster paced more dynamic part of the game that players can participate in if they wish? Like I said its only *one* mechanic in the game. I'm not forcing this down everyones throat. If you like to spend hours hunting for a fight you can still do that. Really I know allot of people like that about eve and thats great. They can still do that. But why tailor *every* pvp mechanic in the game for people who have lots of time to "hunt for prey."

I didn't join a hunting club I joined major a war. I don't want to sit for hours in a tree waiting for a deer to wander by. I want to be thrown into some action.

Look if there were between 10-40 systems throughout each front that had plexes and the notification system I describe we would all get about 3-7 decent pvp fights in 2 hours of play. Doesn't that sound good?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#44 - 2012-01-05 23:33:21 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
That's WAY MORE than knowing where the fighting is occurring. I would almost keep the intel open ended and let the militia coordinate on their own.Like if a militia had a channel specifically for plexing. I think CCP is trying to stay away from NPCs as much as possible and get that kinda stuff into the hands of the players. ....

I'm still not sure if I would want NPC updates though. Maybe if FW gets some sort of Sov system where we can install upgraded comm relays, then sure. Otherwise, I dunno.



We are after all fighting for an npc faction. I mean it can never be entirely player driven unless you want to buy into the politics of null sec.

But the npcs should share information with its own militia about when important military complexes are being attacked. By allowing this it really can be an advantage and not a drawback.

The whole idea here is to have fw offer something new. Specifically it should offer frequent quality small scale pvp. This proposal would go a long way toward that. FW would be too fast paced and dynamic for the slow blobs to form and be effective.

If the mechanics just end up giving us more of the same "blob up send alt scouts out and gank what you find" mechanics then it doesn't offer anything new for subscribers.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Jalmari Huitsikko
Avanto
Hole Control
#45 - 2012-01-08 12:54:34 UTC
FW: do plexes in complete safety in bomber -> go own noobs who don't do plexes in bombers in dramiel whatever wtfpwnmobile
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#46 - 2012-01-12 01:00:00 UTC
Jalmari Huitsikko wrote:
FW: do plexes in complete safety in bomber -> go own noobs who don't do plexes in bombers in dramiel whatever wtfpwnmobile

When I talk about the plexxing I'm talking about occupancy plexxing not missions.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#47 - 2012-01-16 17:48:10 UTC
They've actually reduced the differential between NPCs in different plexes lately. Caldari NPC do not jam in many plexes, and in reality they are a nuisance to the properly sized ships in a given plex. There are also numerous ways to avoid them altogether. 1) don't fight inside plex, 2) Don't go near button to "activate" them. So, CCP is listening and making alterations that are clear to anybody wishing to actually run plexes.

The proposal for telling militias where the plexes are spawning is a decent one, and it will help when two like-minded gangs are itching for a fight. Good stuff. [It can easily be gamed, which is fine. Example: You have a minimum number of guys enter a plex and the rest stay out. Response fleet arrives to find opponent has 3x the number the intel map says they do. Example 2: Plexing fleet "spams intel" by opening large number of plexes in far off area, and then bails when response fleet arrives.]


However, if you are fighting for your militia and are more interested in occupancy than fights, your side will blob a plex and discourage even fights when you can. You want to win occupancy, not get good fights.

So, there you have it in a nutshell. Nothing CCP implements can encourage one side to suicide into another side and lose all of its ships.

Everybody who engages in plexing warfare has this figured out and it's not a big deal. Fight when you can, avoid fight when you can't.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#48 - 2012-01-16 19:54:55 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
They've actually reduced the differential between NPCs in different plexes lately. Caldari NPC do not jam in many plexes, and in reality they are a nuisance to the properly sized ships in a given plex. There are also numerous ways to avoid them altogether. 1) don't fight inside plex, 2) Don't go near button to "activate" them. So, CCP is listening and making alterations that are clear to anybody wishing to actually run plexes.

The proposal for telling militias where the plexes are spawning is a decent one, and it will help when two like-minded gangs are itching for a fight. Good stuff. [It can easily be gamed, which is fine. Example: You have a minimum number of guys enter a plex and the rest stay out. Response fleet arrives to find opponent has 3x the number the intel map says they do. Example 2: Plexing fleet "spams intel" by opening large number of plexes in far off area, and then bails when response fleet arrives.]


However, if you are fighting for your militia and are more interested in occupancy than fights, your side will blob a plex and discourage even fights when you can. You want to win occupancy, not get good fights.

So, there you have it in a nutshell. Nothing CCP implements can encourage one side to suicide into another side and lose all of its ships.

Everybody who engages in plexing warfare has this figured out and it's not a big deal. Fight when you can, avoid fight when you can't.




I'm glad your warming to the proposal.

I often go in plexes and do not go near the button because the minmatar npcs will start spamming missiles at me. It is one of the best ways I know to get a decent fight in this game. But when I do this, I can't say I am running plexes or in anyway helping my militia in the occupancy war, since I am not really running the plex.

Yes there will be situations where people will open plexes and then camp the acceleration gate or even the gate into the system. But those ships that are sitting outside the plex camping could potentially be running plexes different themselves. So while they are playing it safe they are not helping their militia as much as they could if they split up and *all* started running timers. The militia that has the courage to split up and run many timers at once will be rewarded with more plexes captured. That will be the main reason why blobs will be split up.

CCP will need to tweak with the number of plexes that spawn. There can't be too many such that both sides can all plex and never have to fight over the same plex. But there can't be too few that the side with larger numbers can easilly camp them.

I would err on the side of having too many at first. I think allot of people - like myself would just go looking for plexes that the enemy started in order to fight for those. If I saw a wt opened a minor plex in a t1 frigate within 7 jumps I would likely be there before they could finish the plex. Of course all minors will now be fought over with nnothing but destroyers Cry but that is another issue.

I really think if they did this people who are looking for pvp would find their killboard blowing up with kills and losses in great fights.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#49 - 2012-01-18 05:56:06 UTC
CCP has altered plex spawning and has also erred on the side of too many plexes. A minor, medium, and L3 major are available 30 minutes after one closes. It's easy to kill off the spawns in these plexes as well.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#50 - 2012-01-18 14:19:13 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
CCP has altered plex spawning and has also erred on the side of too many plexes. A minor, medium, and L3 major are available 30 minutes after one closes. It's easy to kill off the spawns in these plexes as well.


I agree that the changes ccp made are welcome. But they are not enough. They brought the number of dedicated plexers from what 30 to 100? Thats still pretty sad for an mmo with about 300k accounts.

As far as the npcs I can only speak for amarr fighting the minmatar rats.

It can be easy to kill the spawns if you start the plex and keep killing them. But even then if fly a passive tanked pvp fit, you likely have to warp out ot repair your tank if a enemy comes. If the plex was started earlier by somone else then you will definitely not have an easy time clearing it and fighting a wt. You will need to warp off.

Plexing is still primarilly a pve activity. By that I mean I will do 5 plexes before anyone even bothers to come in for a fight. Then if my tank is already demolished which it usually is by the npcs I need to warp out anyway.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#51 - 2012-01-19 16:48:04 UTC
BTW this is not my idea.

It has been the idea since people realized what a pve farce fw plexing can be.

Here is the post that clearly established fw plexing can be efficiently done soley pve style:

"As predicted, it took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), for the Amarr Empire in this case.....111 faction warfare complexes were captured in the process, ....
I did not kill anyone in the process, although I have fired on some people to scare them off. Your new Divine Commodore is a moral objectionist."
Ankhesentapemkah 6/18/2008

And here is tommy reslins response 6/19/2008:

"Second off.. allow an "Agent" in the area controlled by (faction name here) inform everyone that "Solar System Such and Such is under attack." This way people will come to fight them. So everytime you attempt to capture something the enemies will know where you are. This will bring in some more fights."

This still hasn't been done so doing plexes against no one but npcs is still the best way to go. 3.5 years later this proposal of Tommy Reslin still needs to be implemented.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-01-19 22:06:02 UTC
I thought I had already liked this so here is my like.

For the record I am still in favour of a more graphical interface but the principal is there.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-01-20 15:44:46 UTC
I fought in and on plexes yesterday. This happened:

Kill 1
Loss 1
Loss 2
Kill 2

If you'll notice, that's 3 separate systems that plexing was occurring in. I realize that you color your 'plexing is a PvE activity' with the word primarily. I think that since the recent update with more plexes spawning, it's shifted a fair bit toward the PvP side.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#54 - 2012-01-20 16:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Garr Earthbender wrote:
I fought in and on plexes yesterday. This happened:

Kill 1
Loss 1
Loss 2
Kill 2

If you'll notice, that's 3 separate systems that plexing was occurring in. I realize that you color your 'plexing is a PvE activity' with the word primarily. I think that since the recent update with more plexes spawning, it's shifted a fair bit toward the PvP side.



Garr thanks for posting. That looks like a pretty good run, and exactly what I would like out of eve. When I say I think we should be able to get about 4-7 fights per 2 hours some people say that is crazy. But I think you might agree that with some tweaking it could be possible. At least its worth striving for.

Let me try to clarify what I am getting at with this proposal.

I think *using* plexes is the best way in eve to get small scale pvp fights. So I am always a big proponent of people giving fw a try and using the plex mechanics to get fights.

However if you want to actually plex *in order to gain the most occupancy* under the current mechanics you are better off doing it pve style.

The goal of this proposal is to make it so the best way to gain the most occupancy would require lots of small scale pvp. That is why the notification system is key.

I went out the other night and did some plexing. Now I use plexes in order to get fights not really to get occupancy. Let me explain how each is different:
Using plexes for for fights:
1)go to a system with lots of wartargets and open a plex.
2) move away from the button and rats so they don't cut into your tank and force you to warp out if someone comes
3) Dont actually capture the plex. Even if you are not getting a fight then leave the beacon up and try a different system. That way that plex is open for you to come back to later.

Plexxing in order to actually change occupancy:
1) Go to an empty system - again getting pvp may result in me having to leave the plex or having to reship this just slows plexing down.
2) Run the plex in a pve ship so that you can run the largest variety of plexes. If I fit a frigate/destroyer for pve I can run many more types of plexes than if I fit anything for pvp.

Now know plexing doesn't have consequences and people have pretty much abandoned plexing other than to get a fight. But when I first started people still held on to the idea that occupancy was the goal.(BTW I think occupancy should be the goal of fw) So what I did was I fit pve ships and did plexing. Here is the type of ships we would use:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=7303164

LOL ok that is horrible and I mainly posted it just for a laugh. But really the whole idea of just warping out if pvpers arrived and going to a different quiet system was effective. And it would still be effective if people really want to start plexxing for occupancy sake again.

So will this proposal accomplish the goal? I am not sure but I think it will bring us much much closer.

Consider the things I do in order to use plexes for fights versus capping plexes for actual occupancy.
1) go to a system with wartarget as opposed to an empty system. You might say well you would still go to an empty system with these changes. However the effect of going ot an empty versus wt filled system will be greatly reduced. Why? Because everyone in the militia will know you are there anyway due to the notification system.
2) There would be no longer a reason not to run away from the rats in order to preserve your tank for pvp because there would be no rats. You could go ahead and actually run the plex even though you are mainly looking for pvp.
3) Capture the plex? Well its true that would make the beacon go away in that system. But the notification system will tell the other militia where you are anywhere you do a plex. So you might as well close that plex and open another. All the wartargets will know you are there.
4) Pve ship so you can run more types of plexes? No there are no rats so there is no reason to fly anything but a fully pvp fit.

Just some things to consider.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

PlatinumMercSEAL
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#55 - 2012-01-26 14:31:42 UTC
Prometheus Bird wrote:
One thing I'd like to add, I don't think that cloaks should work in either FW plexes or FW missions.

Cloaks don't work in enemy highsec, it makes no sense they'd work in these either.

99% of the people in FW level 4s, in particular, are flying stealth bombers. They enter the mission, cloak, slowboat 100km away from the entrance, and do the mission in complete safety from the other side.

Also (sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere), the entry requirements to the sites make no sense. Why can a faction frigate like a Dramiel or a Daredevil enter the small sites, but an AF, Intereceptor, or EAF can't? That's just crazy, and it means that 90% of the ships (at least the ones I see) used in FW are:

Stealth bomber
Dramiel
Hookbill
Slicer

Seriously, either ban faction ships or allow T2 variants.


What a bad idea! Are you really serious or trolling!?

Captain PlatiumMercSEAL, Deep-Space Wraiths (Independent Null Sec Mercenary Corporation)

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#56 - 2012-02-03 15:41:34 UTC
I agree that ccp needs to rework what the minor plexes. They should let af in minors and create a rookie plex that only lets t1 vanilla frigates in. T3 cruisers are allowed in medium plexes but T2 cruisers are not. I think they should just not allow T3 cruisers in mediums and the problem is fixed.

As far as cloaks not working in plexes or missions that does sort of cut both ways. One of the best ways to catch stealth bomber mission runners is to put a cloak on your ship warp into the mission and immediatly cloak. When the sb lands on top of you, you will both uncloak and you can lock the sb. Its a pretty good trick that I actually had pulled on me.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#57 - 2012-04-10 15:04:08 UTC
I'm bumping this thread because ccp is now really getting to work on fw.

I do not think plexing needs a huge overhaul just a few tweaks. Once some consequences are added people will start entering the plexes and fighting over them more often. And the plexing mechanics are pretty good already.

It especially does not need to be turned into a system were we shoot red crosses ftw.

I would also point out that there is a bug where minor plexes will often stop spawning. This needs to be fixed. The plexes should spawn in a timely fashion because that is what brings some urgency to defending a system.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#58 - 2012-04-10 16:14:51 UTC
The biggest things they can do to help FW plexing is
1. Build a better in-game militia tab. That thing is worthless, and offers nothing of value.
2. Update the map.
a. Use absolute and not relative value for deciding size of contested dots on maps.
b. Refresh map more quickly (like every time a plex is closed).
3. Fix respawn bugs. Get a dev to talk to Damar to figure out what is happening and get it fixed.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#59 - 2012-04-30 16:28:26 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
The biggest things they can do to help FW plexing is
1. Build a better in-game militia tab. That thing is worthless, and offers nothing of value.
2. Update the map.
a. Use absolute and not relative value for deciding size of contested dots on maps.
b. Refresh map more quickly (like every time a plex is closed).
3. Fix respawn bugs. Get a dev to talk to Damar to figure out what is happening and get it fixed.




These would all be moves in the right direction.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation
#60 - 2012-05-12 01:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lock out
TL;DR but I agree with OP