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so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!?

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Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#121 - 2012-04-11 12:18:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner.


[Hulk, New Setup 2]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Use a +4 implant to fit. 29k tank.

You can use more implants to get the tank even bigger.


And yet nobody is happy
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#122 - 2012-04-11 12:19:36 UTC
Well i'll be damned lol
It still has 8,000 cargo hold too.

baltec1 wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner.


[Hulk, New Setup 2]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Use a +4 implant to fit. 29k tank.

You can use more implants to get the tank even bigger.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#123 - 2012-04-11 12:24:10 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Well i'll be damned lol
It still has 8,000 cargo hold too.

baltec1 wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Show me a respectable Hulk tank with tech II strip miners and a roid scanner.


[Hulk, New Setup 2]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Use a +4 implant to fit. 29k tank.

You can use more implants to get the tank even bigger.


So why is there a thread every thirty seconds.
Spurty
#124 - 2012-04-11 12:25:09 UTC
Meh

Give all these ships x3 tank

Make concord take x3 longer to appear

Evolve play a bit

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#125 - 2012-04-11 12:27:59 UTC
26,700 EHP Iteron Mark V with 15,500 m3 cargo hold lol.


Passive Regen: 114
Resists: 75.9, 77.2, 72.8, 77.4


[Iteron Mark V, Tank]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#126 - 2012-04-11 12:28:19 UTC
Spurty wrote:
Meh

Give all these ships x3 tank

Make concord take x3 longer to appear

Evolve play a bit



Yeah, Hulks with 100k EHP, great plan
Prince Kobol
#127 - 2012-04-11 12:29:25 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:


So why is there a thread every thirty seconds.



Simply because people are to damn lazy and just want to fly to a random belt and mine afk.

So when they do and come back to a floating pod they come on the forums and scream that hulks should have the same tank as a Titan.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#128 - 2012-04-11 12:31:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Hulk is fine.
Miners (and their non-existent tanking knowledge) are the problem. Its funny, people try to teach them to tank, and post fits, they simply ignore the fit, and pretend it doesn't exist.

If the Hulk was 'bad' nobody would use it. They would fly Covetors instead.
The Hulk is in the top five of 'most flown ships' - 3rd IIRC. The Covetor is WAY down the list.

Pretty obvious to me that what these carebears want - is massive EHP without having to dedicate low and rigs slots for the purpose. Essentially, 75-80K EHP on the standard '2x Cargo mod/MLU, 2x Cargo rig" fit.

Then, they will lobby for even more Concord buffs/ganking nerfs - rendering ganks nearly impossible. Sure, it will still be 'possible' - but if it requires the coordination of a large group and/or massive loss of ISK on each gank....it will be an exceedingly rare event.

Result: Carebear miner paradise, where Hulks can AFK/macro mine all day. Risk free.
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#129 - 2012-04-11 12:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Killer Gandry
Roime wrote:
Why do people still insist on mining in hisec?


They mine the low end which the nullbears aren't willing to mine becasue of ISK per hour.
Any nullbear miner who mines anything else than ABC's is an idiot.
If I only mine the ABC's and sell part of the zyd and mega in high sec I can purchase all the low ends I need, compress them and jump them into null. That saves a lot of time and makes my Isk per hour more attractive.

But Isk per hour is something only nullbears are allowed to pursuit. How dare high sec people try the same.

The whole bladibla about fitting an ueberawesome tank is a moot debate. I have seen more than once mining ops in null sec and they don't even fit such tanks, mainly due to the fact they have much more ease in avoiding hostiles.
neuts and blue's are announced several systems away.

Try to do the same in hi sec.

Hulk tanks are fine when tanking rats, be it null sec rats or hi sec rats. But when it comes to gankers no tank will hold long enough if the ganker knows what he's doing.
The nullbear just keeps an eye on the intel channel and goes to safety long before a hostile drops by.
A lot of mining also happens in pocketsystems. Gates bubbled up like hell. So any hostiles have to burn through 30 or 40 bubbles before they can warp.
Again enough time to safe up. Now show me the hi sec pocket system that has the ability to make people unable to warp to you for a huge range around the gate.

It's ridiculous that a Hulk requires to be a lot heavier tanked in high sec than null sec.
Kreeia Dgore
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2012-04-11 12:39:23 UTC
How about CCP does their job and ban bots and changes mining to enforce being present at keyboard? It is needed, 26% people hate it, it is most hated game mechanics in the whole eve.
Anyway, hulks need boost since gankers are boosted too. Bots don't care, real life players do.
Droxlyn
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-04-11 12:44:38 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:


So now people are saying that CCP should buff the hulk because of the Covetor.


Hulk can mine more, tank a lot more, can carry more cargo, has better resists, has more CPU, has a better capacitor.

Erm.. Hulk is a better ship then a Covetor.

Also do not use price as an argument since its the player base, not CCP that dictates the price.


The Hulk is the T2 version of the Covetor, so it would make sense to compare the two. I agree that the hulk is "better" than the covetor, but it doesn't go far enough to justify its 10x price.

It mines 15% more when each are maxed for mining.

Sitting in an empty covetor gives me 6005 EHP, sitting in an empty Hulk gets me 9217. There is more up-side when fitted.

The storage on a Hulk is nice, I like being able to hold two full cycles from my strip miners at once. I get twice the time between doing something with my harvest, whoop-de-do.

The CPU upgrade is what lets me get two Mining Laser Upgrade IIs on it.

It needs more powergrid, a lot more, and currently it gets no love here. CCP does dictate the price, in blueprint recipe costs, just not the final ISK cost on any given day.


My T2 Disposable is about 70m on the market today. The "Tanked Hulk" is 356m or so today. I can lose 5 of the disposables for each one Tanked Hulk. I hope the Tanked hulk survives 4 out 5 gank attempts.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#132 - 2012-04-11 12:59:45 UTC
Droxlyn wrote:


My T2 Disposable is about 70m on the market today. The "Tanked Hulk" is 356m or so today. I can lose 5 of the disposables for each one Tanked Hulk. I hope the Tanked hulk survives 4 out 5 gank attempts.


If you tank it correctly then you will survive all but the most dedicated gankers.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#133 - 2012-04-11 13:02:46 UTC
Droxlyn wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:


So now people are saying that CCP should buff the hulk because of the Covetor.


Hulk can mine more, tank a lot more, can carry more cargo, has better resists, has more CPU, has a better capacitor.

Erm.. Hulk is a better ship then a Covetor.

Also do not use price as an argument since its the player base, not CCP that dictates the price.


The Hulk is the T2 version of the Covetor, so it would make sense to compare the two. I agree that the hulk is "better" than the covetor, but it doesn't go far enough to justify its 10x price.

It mines 15% more when each are maxed for mining.

Sitting in an empty covetor gives me 6005 EHP, sitting in an empty Hulk gets me 9217. There is more up-side when fitted.

The storage on a Hulk is nice, I like being able to hold two full cycles from my strip miners at once. I get twice the time between doing something with my harvest, whoop-de-do.

The CPU upgrade is what lets me get two Mining Laser Upgrade IIs on it.

It needs more powergrid, a lot more, and currently it gets no love here. CCP does dictate the price, in blueprint recipe costs, just not the final ISK cost on any given day.


My T2 Disposable is about 70m on the market today. The "Tanked Hulk" is 356m or so today. I can lose 5 of the disposables for each one Tanked Hulk. I hope the Tanked hulk survives 4 out 5 gank attempts.


Unless the gankers bring some serious hardware, it will, put it this way, my Dual LSE version of my Rapier has lived through a lot, and it has 30K odd EHP.
Prince Kobol
#134 - 2012-04-11 13:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Droxlyn wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:


So now people are saying that CCP should buff the hulk because of the Covetor.


Hulk can mine more, tank a lot more, can carry more cargo, has better resists, has more CPU, has a better capacitor.

Erm.. Hulk is a better ship then a Covetor.

Also do not use price as an argument since its the player base, not CCP that dictates the price.


The Hulk is the T2 version of the Covetor, so it would make sense to compare the two. I agree that the hulk is "better" than the covetor, but it doesn't go far enough to justify its 10x price.

It mines 15% more when each are maxed for mining.

Sitting in an empty covetor gives me 6005 EHP, sitting in an empty Hulk gets me 9217. There is more up-side when fitted.

The storage on a Hulk is nice, I like being able to hold two full cycles from my strip miners at once. I get twice the time between doing something with my harvest, whoop-de-do.

The CPU upgrade is what lets me get two Mining Laser Upgrade IIs on it.

It needs more powergrid, a lot more, and currently it gets no love here. CCP does dictate the price, in blueprint recipe costs, just not the final ISK cost on any given day.


My T2 Disposable is about 70m on the market today. The "Tanked Hulk" is 356m or so today. I can lose 5 of the disposables for each one Tanked Hulk. I hope the Tanked hulk survives 4 out 5 gank attempts.


You missed the bit about comparing price.

You can not compare ships by price simply because this is a player driven market and the price is set by the players.

If you want to compare price then use the material value of the ships and then you would see that most T2 ships cost approx 10x more then their T1 counterparts
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#135 - 2012-04-11 13:06:31 UTC
For the record, the whole, "Hulk is not X many times better than the Covetor" is called reduced returns, its why you could spend 3 Bil on a faction fitted Machariel and it will still die to three gank Geddons, or 1 Bil on a tengu, and it will die to a 100 Mil after fitting 1600 Plated cane.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#136 - 2012-04-11 13:15:35 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
For the record, the whole, "Hulk is not X many times better than the Covetor" is called reduced returns, its why you could spend 3 Bil on a faction fitted Machariel and it will still die to three gank Geddons, or 1 Bil on a tengu, and it will die to a 100 Mil after fitting 1600 Plated cane.
^^ This.

The entirety of EVE is built around diminishing returns for exponential costs. This is why price is not a balancing factor: because costing more tells us absolutely nothing about how much “better“ something is, even when we do a straight apples-to-apples comparison with its less capable counterparts.

An Invuln II gives you a 30% resist bonus for, what? A couple of millions? A CN Invuln gives you a 37.5% resist bonus — 25% more than the T2 version — for several hundred millions. We're talking almost a factor of 100× the price for ¼ better performance. So price as a measure of how much performance something “should have” is right out the window, and it keeps going into the field, across the tracks, down the docks and half-way across the ocean if we want to do something as silly as comparing two completely different items (say, a T2 mining ship and a T1 combat ship).
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#137 - 2012-04-11 13:17:09 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Hulk is fine.
Miners (and their non-existent tanking knowledge) are the problem. Its funny, people try to teach them to tank, and post fits, they simply ignore the fit, and pretend it doesn't exist.

If the Hulk was 'bad' nobody would use it. They would fly Covetors instead.
The Hulk is in the top five of 'most flown ships' - 3rd IIRC. The Covetor is WAY down the list.

Pretty obvious to me that what these carebears want - is massive EHP without having to dedicate low and rigs slots for the purpose. Essentially, 75-80K EHP on the standard '2x Cargo mod/MLU, 2x Cargo rig" fit.

Then, they will lobby for even more Concord buffs/ganking nerfs - rendering ganks nearly impossible. Sure, it will still be 'possible' - but if it requires the coordination of a large group and/or massive loss of ISK on each gank....it will be an exceedingly rare event.

Result: Carebear miner paradise, where Hulks can AFK/macro mine all day. Risk free.


I have an idea, make Hulks perminantly omnitanked. Make it so you can only add one low and three highs. That way EVERY Hulk is tanked and they got no qq

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#138 - 2012-04-11 13:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Of course, T2 gives you only marginally better performance for a price.

In combat ships and everything else. Carebears are the only ones who refuse to understand it, it seems.
Even explaning it to them won't help.

Miners are just ignorant as a class, and when you suggest that THEY are the problem, they get all self-righteous.

CCP caters to them in the same way that teachers try to prevent other students from picking on the 'mentally handicapped'. Doesn't change the fact that they ARE mentally handicapped.

The Vagabond is 150M, while the Stabber is 3-4 M and insurable. Does the Vagabond give 40x better performance?
The T2 Claw is a 15-20M, while a T1 Slasher is 50K. Is the Claw 40x better?

Insisting that the 220M T2 Hulk is somehow out of line with the 25M T1 Covetor - is nonsense.


EDIT: Hulk does not need a buff, but my point would be proven if CCP simply gave the Hulk an additional low slot.
95% of the miners out there would stuff another Cargo Expander in it, and cripple their EHP further - and then continue to cry when Destroyers blow them up. Roll
Prince Kobol
#139 - 2012-04-11 13:41:52 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:


Miners are just ignorant as a class, and when you suggest that THEY are the problem, they get all self-righteous.

CCP caters to them in the same way that teachers try to prevent other students from picking on the 'mentally handicapped'. Doesn't change the fact that they ARE mentally handicapped.

]


By the same token we can say people who gank are people who have very small and offensive genitalia, are unable to fit into society due to their very poor social skills and horrendous body odour and are still living with their parents well into their 30's.

See, its easy to label an entire section of the gaming community because they are butt hurt that CCP declared their method (which wasn't theirs as it had been used for years, it was just people didn't shout about it on the forums and take the ****) of ganking as an exploit.
Ackemi
The Gaming Avenue
Shadow Ultimatum
#140 - 2012-04-11 13:48:43 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
This Again...

Sigh

[Rapier, Shield Standard] (I AM A ******* DEDICATED COMBAT VESSEL)
Damage Control II
Overdrive Injector System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Dark Blood Warp Disruptor
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Stasis Webifier II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
Cynosural Field Generator I
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Core Scanner Probe I
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

26K EHP Before Links

[Hulk, Tanked Hulk] (I AM TANKED PROPERLY)
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II
Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I

Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

32k EHP Before Links

(Also, if attacked, heat invuls for 36k EHP and even better resists)


Now you see, that seems awful unfair, nerf hulks IMO


Wow, talk about apples and oranges!

I will say that I'd take a hulk tank nerf if you give my hulk the agility and speed of a Rapier. Roll