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so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!?

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#701 - 2012-04-13 00:37:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
I wrote an article several months ago discussing hulk fittings and the like:

Here it is: https://griefer-geddon.eve-industrialist.com/FightingHulkageddonv3.htm

The fits I suggested for the hulk have already been posted in this forum.

However, there is an important dichotomy between Mining and Shooting in this game. Mining is very laid back, where you don't need to be vigilant. The shooting side of this game is much more dynamic, where playing involves a constant watch on whats happening so they can respond approrpiately. Frankly, these two play styles don't mix well. As the person who's not vigilant will die horribly to those that are. I honestly think that small changes to the system are in order.

Here are some important points:
1.) A Mackinaw CANNOT be tanked enough to survive a suicide Tornado attack.... Concord response times, in 0.7 sec and lower, are greater than 15s( at least, last time I checked in January). Any Arty Tornado deals 12k per shot, and a fully tanked Makinaw has less than 24k EHP. Granted, with skilled fleet boosters.... it MIGHT survive that second shot, but its not a given!!!!

2.) The Hulk can be fit with a good tank. It can hit 30k EHP, and fleet + Heat can put it into the mid 30's... but this is not a significant amount of EHP in todays suicide gank world, as a Talos can often dish out that much damage before CC arrives.

Given the increase in dessie dps, and the awesome gank of tier 3 BC's, I think a review of the exhumer class ships is very much appropriate.... The fact that you cannot tank a Mack to survive highsec ganks speaks volumes IMO. I think a well tanked Exhumer with all rigs/mids/lows dedicated to fitting tank, it should be able to withstand ONE suicide BC ship.

With about 30% more CPU, the mack could fit a 30k EHP tank...... (perhaps 1-5 pg more to smooth its fitting )
With about 5% more CPU, about 5 PG, and increase the shield resist bonus from 7.5 to 10% per level. The hulk would sport about a 40k EHP tank before gang boosts....

These would not be "CCP SAVE ME" changes... as fitting even 1 Laser upgrde would significantly compromise the tank by 10k+ EHP. Essentially, there needs to be a balance between tank and yield, where tanked fits can actually stand a reasonable chance of survival.

Truth be told, most miners I know will still NOT bother to tank their fits.... and that is the CHOICE the make... I just think the choice needs to be a real choice... especially in the case of Mackinaws... Also, groups of attackers can take out exhumers just fine, as it should be....
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#702 - 2012-04-13 00:41:09 UTC
I took the liberty to make your post visible. Thanks again for the most pathetic forums EVER created in the whole universe.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I wrote an article several months ago discussing hulk fittings and the like:

Here it is: Fighting Hulkageddon

The fits I suggested for the hulk have already been posted in this forum.

However, there is an important dichotomy between Mining and Shooting in this game. Mining is very laid back, where you don't need to be vigilant. The shooting side of this game is much more dynamic, where playing involves a constant watch on whats happening so they can respond approrpiately. Frankly, these two play styles don't mix well. As the person who's not vigilant will die horribly to those that are. I honestly think that small changes to the system are in order.

Here are some important points:
1.) A Mackinaw CANNOT be tanked enough to survive a suicide Tornado attack.... Concord response times, in 0.7 sec and lower, are greater than 15s( at least, last time I checked in January). Any Arty Tornado deals 12k per shot, and a fully tanked Makinaw has less than 24k EHP. Granted, with skilled fleet boosters.... it MIGHT survive that second shot, but its not a given!!!!

2.) The Hulk can be fit with a good tank. It can hit 30k EHP, and fleet + Heat can put it into the mid 30's... but this is not a significant amount of EHP in todays suicide gank world, as a Talos can often dish out that much damage before CC arrives.

Given the increase in dessie dps, and the awesome gank of tier 3 BC's, I think a review of the exhumer class ships is very much appropriate.... The fact that you cannot tank a Mack to survive highsec ganks speaks volumes IMO. I think a well tanked Exhumer with all rigs/mids/lows dedicated to fitting tank, it should be able to withstand ONE suicide BC ship.

With about 30 percent more CPU, the mack could fit a 30k EHP tank...... (perhaps 1-5 pg more to smooth its fitting )
With about 5 percent more CPU, about 5 PG, and increase the shield resist bonus from 7.5 to 10 percent per level. The hulk would sport about a 40k EHP tank before gang boosts....

These would not be "CCP SAVE ME" changes... as fitting even 1 Laser upgrde would significantly compromise the tank by 10k+ EHP. Essentially, there needs to be a balance between tank and yield, where tanked fits can actually stand a reasonable chance of survival.

Truth be told, most miners I know will still NOT bother to tank their fits.... and that is the CHOICE the make... I just think the choice needs to be a real choice... especially in the case of Mackinaws... Also, groups of attackers can take out exhumers just fine, as it should be....




Also, beware. You will be called hi sec bear for saying this, even with your corp tag Blink

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Adunh Slavy
#703 - 2012-04-13 00:42:32 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:

It is as Baltec said. If you choose to fly a ship into a combat zone without a basic tank, without an escort or choose to pick a ship for a combat environment that is not designed for it nobody can help you. It is your own stupidity that sees you tied to that stake.


Hence the hulk is a stupid ship in its current state. Of course now, like Baltec, you will make the claim that making a crappy tank just a little less crappy is somehow better. Roll

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#704 - 2012-04-13 00:51:41 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I really good post...



good read sir

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#705 - 2012-04-13 00:57:39 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Hence the hulk is a stupid ship in its current state. Of course now, like Baltec, you will make the claim that making a crappy tank just a little less crappy is somehow better. Roll
No, Baltec is more likely to make the same claim he has made throughout the thread: that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#706 - 2012-04-13 01:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Also, sure, the contract is irrelevant for you, the endless threads that you will see in the next months will show you that it was relevant for many others.
It's not irrelevant to me — it doesn't exist to me, so it can't be irrelevant. What I'm saying is that, going by what you just said, it's completely irrelevant to you since you're a proper industrialist and have included all the cost of doing business in your business plan. At that point the imagined “low income vs. AFKability” contract no longer applies — you're treating the matter completely differently, and are dealing with losses as normal write-offs.


I happily admit my opinions are just that and don't present them as the Bible laws carved in stone.
Therefore while I don't need buffs for Hulks (I'd like Macks were less pathetic though), others seems to.
The majority usually wins. If you'll see 100 threads like this in the next months (just let enough people jump into mining and get their slap) it's quite possible a buff will happen.
[/quote]


Ya me neither cause I dont tank the hulk anyways but then Ive never lost one either

Ai Shun wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
If flying a civilian ship into a combat zone is sensible as well, then yes. What are you here to do, ensure the sheep stay tied to the stake so the dogs have an easier time?


It is as Baltec said. If you choose to fly a ship into a combat zone without a basic tank, without an escort or choose to pick a ship for a combat environment that is not designed for it nobody can help you. It is your own stupidity that sees you tied to that stake.


gotta add stupidly dont check out the system ahead of time with the resources ptovided so youre mining somwhere thare are for some reason other ppl.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#707 - 2012-04-13 01:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Tippia wrote:
No, Baltec is more likely to make the same claim he has made throughout the thread: that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy.


and when my talos kills your tanked out hulk before cc arrives what then?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#708 - 2012-04-13 01:12:16 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
and when my talos kills your tanked out hulk before cc arrives what then?
Then the miner is out one Hulk and the attacker is out one Talos. So what?
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#709 - 2012-04-13 01:15:44 UTC
your point is that if you fit for isk per hour then you deserve to die but you also claim the ship has a good tank that it can defend its self against ganks " that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy."

your argument is fit either for tank or for income... but even if you fit for tank you will still die... so what exactly is your point?

you own a 1400 II bpo and nuetron blaster cannon II bpo or something?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#710 - 2012-04-13 01:16:34 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No, Baltec is more likely to make the same claim he has made throughout the thread: that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy.


and when my talos kills your tanked out hulk before cc arrives what then?


get a new one with the profits made on your missioning char, go to a system where there are no ppl, mine.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Ai Shun
#711 - 2012-04-13 01:17:05 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:

It is as Baltec said. If you choose to fly a ship into a combat zone without a basic tank, without an escort or choose to pick a ship for a combat environment that is not designed for it nobody can help you. It is your own stupidity that sees you tied to that stake.


Hence the hulk is a stupid ship in its current state. Of course now, like Baltec, you will make the claim that making a crappy tank just a little less crappy is somehow better. Roll



We seem to be moving in circles. You can choose:

(a) Tank the ship at the expense of mining yield
(b) Have a friend or alt fly escort for you
(c) Fly a different hull that is safer, but yields less

It is not a stupid ship, unless you personally choose to ignore all the options and continuously beat your head against the wall. I can't help you with that. You need to make the choice to step away from that wall.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#712 - 2012-04-13 01:18:21 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
your point is that if you fit for isk per hour then you deserve to die but you also claim the ship has a good tank that it can defend its self against ganks " that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy."

your argument is fit either for tank or for income... but even if you fit for tank you will still die... so what exactly is your point?

you own a 1400 II bpo and nuetron blaster cannon II bpo or something?


or a covetor BPO

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#713 - 2012-04-13 01:20:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Ai Shun wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:

It is as Baltec said. If you choose to fly a ship into a combat zone without a basic tank, without an escort or choose to pick a ship for a combat environment that is not designed for it nobody can help you. It is your own stupidity that sees you tied to that stake.


Hence the hulk is a stupid ship in its current state. Of course now, like Baltec, you will make the claim that making a crappy tank just a little less crappy is somehow better. Roll



We seem to be moving in circles. You can choose:

(a) Tank the ship at the expense of mining yield
(b) Have a friend or alt fly escort for you
(c) Fly a different hull that is safer, but yields less

It is not a stupid ship, unless you personally choose to ignore all the options and continuously beat your head against the wall. I can't help you with that. You need to make the choice to step away from that wall.


d.) dont tank it and mine in systems where there are NO PEOPLE

why do ppl ignore that?

My main's been mining since the age of T20 minus skill time to get into a hulk and I tink the only ship ive ever lost was a noctis running missions when there was a war

oh wauit no, got killed by arcturus deathbane and thesleeper before ther ewere warnings about what happens when you go into .4 an below

or if there were warnings I was new and stupid vOv

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#714 - 2012-04-13 01:24:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
MeBiatch wrote:
your point is that if you fit for isk per hour then you deserve to die but you also claim the ship has a good tank that it can defend its self against ganks " that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy."

your argument is fit either for tank or for income...
…no, my argument is that complaining that it can't tank if you fit no tank is stupid and it's not something that requires a change to the game to fix. In fact, changing the game doesn't fix it at all, so that's the wrong way to go regardless. As it happens, you can fit for both tank and income.

As for the BPOs, no. I'm thinking about getting a Thrasher BPO, if people are actually as bad at fitting their exhumers as this thread (and others) suggests, but I don't think it'll be ready in time. All my research slots are taken for more interesting things.
Adunh Slavy
#715 - 2012-04-13 01:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Ai Shun wrote:

We seem to be moving in circles. You can choose:


The circles are the result of the narrow focus of the debate, a narrow focus the gankbear community wishes to maintain.


a) And get almost the same yeild as C for less cost and Risk.
b) Consume somone else's time and share profits, which will profit below A or C.
c) Profit, because the hulk is a stupid ship in the current environment.

D) Other options where the circles end.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#716 - 2012-04-13 01:37:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
no, my argument is that complaining that it can't tank if you fit no tank is stupid and it's not something that requires a change to the game to fix. In fact, changing the game doesn't fix it at all, so that's the wrong way to go regardless. As it happens, you can fit for both tank and income.



dont see how best tank you can get is 40k in a 0.8 system you are looking at 14 second response time from concord...

gank talos with heat on does 6507 alpha ever 4.1 seconds... so lets say you have two talos thats 1314 alpha every 4.1 seconds that means 14/4.1= 3 - 4 shots before cc arrives... 1314*3= 3942 or 40k damage... so even in the best case you will die to just two of these...

[Talos, New Setup 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor I
Stasis Webifier I
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I


Warrior II x5

in today's game you can not effectively tank a hulk against gank...

i mean 3 of these things can kill an orca before cc arrives in a 0.6 system!


your response with be so what more dead ships means more isk for me...

well just admit that if they boost the hulk and its friends hp then you wont make as much isk... its ok to be selfish but just admit that is your point you dont want to loose out on isk... which imo is rather hypocritical if you ask me...


There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#717 - 2012-04-13 01:42:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
MeBiatch wrote:
gank talos with heat on does 6507 alpha ever 4.1 seconds... so lets say you have two talos thats 1314 alpha every 4.1 seconds that means 14/4.1= 3 - 4 shots before cc arrives... 1314*3= 3942 or 40k damage... so even in the best case you will die to just two of these...
Yes? So?

Quote:
in today's game you can not effectively tank a hulk against gank...
Sure you can, as long as the gank isn't well-organised, in which case the question becomes: no, why should you be able to?

Quote:
i mean 3 of these things can kill an orca before cc arrives in a 0.6 system!
Funny that. My Orca has ~300k EHP, so that would require them to put out about 3000 DPS. I feel strangely safe from three of them for some reason…
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#718 - 2012-04-13 01:45:44 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:

We seem to be moving in circles. You can choose:


The circles are the result of the narrow focus of the debate, a narrow focus the gankbear community wishes to maintain.


a) And get almost the same yeild as C for less cost and Risk.
b) Consume somone else's time and share profits, which will profit below A or C.
c) Profit, because the hulk is a stupid ship in the current environment.

D) Other options where the circles end.


E) see my last post -.-

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Patrick Estemaire
Cosmic Puppet Theatre
#719 - 2012-04-13 01:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Patrick Estemaire
Kengutsi Akira wrote:


d.) dont tank it and mine in systems where there are NO PEOPLE

why do ppl ignore that?

My main's been mining since the age of T20 minus skill time to get into a hulk and I tink the only ship ive ever lost was a noctis running missions when there was a war

oh wauit no, got killed by arcturus deathbane and thesleeper before ther ewere warnings about what happens when you go into .4 an below

or if there were warnings I was new and stupid vOv


This. While a noob might mine right in busy systems, to make it easier on a ganker to find them, the wisdom comes quick enough to mine out in the middle of nowhere. I'd certainly think that someone who's flown a mining cruiser, then a Retty, would have figured that lesson out by the time they are buying a Hulk.

I'd love to see a dedicated mining barge above the hulk, but I don't think more tank is needed just better sense. Hey, the pirates gotta eat to...
Jorma Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#720 - 2012-04-13 02:25:43 UTC
Also, try to AVOID the more populous mining systems. Because you have so many in local, you can't accurately use d-scan to check for gank-built ships (catalysts, tornados, hurricanes, etc). Also when people know they can count on hulks or covetors to sit almost afk, it really makes it attractive.

By the way the hulk's tank is compromised because the hardware is dedicated for the strip miners and ore processing. If you want a damn tank then go fit mining laser IIs on a Rokh and use that instead.