These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#361 - 2012-04-11 20:06:42 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Roll
Oh and cargo bay genius.


Ore yield when dead: 0
Ore yield when alive: 900/second

Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V.



I'll let this one go because seem new to EVE Blink

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#362 - 2012-04-11 20:07:26 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:


Do you realize that the reason for this is more than simply making it easier to stay in a group to make your haulers life easier?



not really on point but why do Marauders have +tractor range?

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#363 - 2012-04-11 20:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Aranakas
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Aranakas wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Roll
Oh and cargo bay genius.


Ore yield when dead: 0
Ore yield when alive: 900/second

Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V.

So the gankers don't gank your hulk but your Iteron V to lough again as they doestroyed all your work within second?


An Iteron V costs like 5mil. 5mil and some ore is a lot better than 500mil and some ore if you were flying a Hulk.

I used to mine all the time in an Osprey before I realized mining was a boring **** profession. If I could do it in a cruiser, you can do it in a battleship.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Prince Kobol
#364 - 2012-04-11 20:08:06 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Tippia wrote:
My second point is that the Hulk is designed to withstand space that is far more hostile than highsec. People then take this design and cripple it with poor fits to the point where, not only can't it survive the harsh space it was designed for, but it can't even survive in highsec. The ship is inherently capable of much more than people are letting it be.

Ganks are not unique to highsec, and in fact, in highsec, you can drastically reduce the risk of being killed by one through the simple act of fitting a proper tank. Ganks most certainly don't make highsec any less safe than other parts of space…

Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls.

ups ... not posible as the Hulk hasn't even enough PG for 1 LSE


Why are you comparing combat ships with mining ships?
Whitehound
#365 - 2012-04-11 20:10:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Of course not, but as pointed out above, the whole line of reasoning that there is no reason to pick the Hulk over the Covetor kind of falls apart when you look at the numbers. ...

Try not to look at the numbers then.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#366 - 2012-04-11 20:11:00 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Of course not, but as pointed out above, the whole line of reasoning that there is no reason to pick the Hulk over the Covetor kind of falls apart when you look at the numbers. ...

Try not to look at the numbers then.

/thread TBFH.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#367 - 2012-04-11 20:11:12 UTC
it seems to me, all the comparisons are a little skewed.

nay sayers say Tank the hulk. it's the only way. Combat ships lose DPS if they tank their ship. You talk as if the hulk should be in a fleet.The thing you seem to forget. In a fleet. You fit your role. IE DPS. EWAR. War links bla bla bla. In a fleet by that comparison the hulk should be able to fit it's role. By the same comparison, you dont see 1 destroyer going into a fleet of combat ships, and Picking off a cruiser. (Hi sec)

It is imbalanced. Even if you are in a fleet with 1 million combat ships protecting you. You cannot do anything before the ganker attacks. So even Fleeted the Hulk must gimp its use to survive.

Solo Hulks like all things, should find a happy medium between tank and usefulness. But again. There is not really a happy medium for the hulk.

For those that say TANK TANK TANK. You are not getting the whole picture. I have stated where there is imbalance. And it is using your own arguements in using fleets. If a hulk is fleeted it should be able to fit for its role. Would you take a logi into an Incursion if it maxed out its tank? at the expense of its role? would you?


I'll leave you to figure it out. It has a fleet role and no matter how you paint it. It cannot perform that roll to maximum performance if it needs to lose performance.


o7
Adunh Slavy
#368 - 2012-04-11 20:11:58 UTC
Quote:
So, let's just get to the point that you don't want to get to: why on earth should Hulks be buffed?


More of your drama queen horse ****. This was the topic from the start Captain Obvious.

The investment in SP and materials for a hulk is considerable compared to its T1 variant. It's capabilities do not reflect that investment as much as other classes of ships that have T1 and T2 variants. It falls short.

Increasing yields to make up for this short fall, in an environment of over supply, till the 24th anyway as far as we know, isn't a good idea. Nor increasing its hold, time and transportation can't be too easy. This leaves survivability.

Divisions of labor and specialization should be encouraged in Eve, not discouraged by and overcome by a few 3 day old biomass giggle gankbears in cheap destroyers. Increasing survivability and having the ship cost more in terms of materials would further the development and value of specialization.

As pointed out earlier, crimewatch 2 may very well change this entire dynamic anyway and this whole conversation could become far less relevant.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#369 - 2012-04-11 20:12:01 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Tippia wrote:
My second point is that the Hulk is designed to withstand space that is far more hostile than highsec. People then take this design and cripple it with poor fits to the point where, not only can't it survive the harsh space it was designed for, but it can't even survive in highsec. The ship is inherently capable of much more than people are letting it be.

Ganks are not unique to highsec, and in fact, in highsec, you can drastically reduce the risk of being killed by one through the simple act of fitting a proper tank. Ganks most certainly don't make highsec any less safe than other parts of space…

Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls.

ups ... not posible as the Hulk hasn't even enough PG for 1 LSE


Why are you comparing combat ships with mining ships?

I compare Tech 2 BC hulls with Tech 2 BC hulls.

Role mining = no weapon high but mining high

Why the other gimps? Any real reason except "we want eazy targets"?

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!
Prince Kobol
#370 - 2012-04-11 20:15:16 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Tippia wrote:
My second point is that the Hulk is designed to withstand space that is far more hostile than highsec. People then take this design and cripple it with poor fits to the point where, not only can't it survive the harsh space it was designed for, but it can't even survive in highsec. The ship is inherently capable of much more than people are letting it be.

Ganks are not unique to highsec, and in fact, in highsec, you can drastically reduce the risk of being killed by one through the simple act of fitting a proper tank. Ganks most certainly don't make highsec any less safe than other parts of space…

Proper Tank == 2 LSE + 2 INVUS + missing slots compared to other Tech 2 BC hulls.

ups ... not posible as the Hulk hasn't even enough PG for 1 LSE


Why are you comparing combat ships with mining ships?

I compare Tech 2 BC hulls with Tech 2 BC hulls.

Role mining = no weapon high but mining high

Why the other gimps? Any real reason except "we want eazy targets"?


Yet a Hulk is not a Battle Cruiser, its a exhumer or did I miss something
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#371 - 2012-04-11 20:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Aranakas wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Aranakas wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Roll
Oh and cargo bay genius.


Ore yield when dead: 0
Ore yield when alive: 900/second

Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V.

So the gankers don't gank your hulk but your Iteron V to lough again as they doestroyed all your work within second?


An Iteron V costs like 5mil. 5mil and some ore is a lot better than 500mil and some ore if you were flying a Hulk.

I used to mine all the time in an Osprey before I realized mining was a boring **** profession. If I could do it in a cruiser, you can do it in a battleship.


I'll field this one anyway to prevent others from accidentally believing in your stupidity. I once tried to do the same thing in a Ferox (which did better then a retriever in terms of ore) and then a Rohk. For starters, do to how broken mining is all by itself, you might as well get out and try to make isk by using a shovel instead. It is not going to be worth the time. You then add to that hauling the ore and travel time, and so it gets even worse if you're on your own. Which you will be because mining ops want ore ships.



After the fact, people eventually figure out that your "that guy" who always uses jetcans. You will warp away to your Iteron only to find out that, when you get back, the other guy has move all of the ore you just mined into their can (but they named it yours). So you can no longer get to the ore, and so then you need to get back to more mining. End result, it does not work in reality. Reality. That is an important thing for some of you to consider, because things don't always turn out the way your little brains imagine it to.


Reality.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#372 - 2012-04-11 20:18:16 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
The investment in SP and materials for a hulk is considerable compared to its T1 variant. It's capabilities do not reflect that investment as much as other classes of ships that have T1 and T2 variants. It falls short.
…except that the numbers show that the exhumers are not out of line with what other T2 upgrades provide; that the popularity of the ships show that the capabilities are more than enough for the T2 variant to completely overshadow the T1 version; and that the SP investment to get to exhumers is quite small compared to other hull types.

In other words: what shortfall? Almost everything offered so far shows the exact opposite: that the Hulk is an unusually good upgrade over the Covetor.

Quote:
Divisions of labor and specialization should be encouraged in Eve, not discouraged by and overcome by a few 3 day old biomass giggle gankbears in cheap destroyers.
Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.
bornaa
GRiD.
#373 - 2012-04-11 20:18:36 UTC  |  Edited by: bornaa
Tippia wrote:
bornaa wrote:
Copy paste, don't click it.
…and the site only gave me proxy errors.

Quote:
And i am picking the best spot for both things I compare so its good statistics data.
No, it's awful statistics data because you're picking and choosing between prices that are affected by different factors, and this makes them very bad for comparisons. If you want to compare prices, make sure all of them are subject to the same influences.

Quote:
You cant compare things, of lets say ores in RL, from one market, one ore is mined 1km from that market and other 20.000km.
…and that's exactly what you're doing if you're picking the lowest price — you're not actually looking at what stuff is worth on a common market. Jita is that common market, because even if prices are inflated, they are universally inflated and that's what matters.


So common market for you is only larger market that gives that price to damnation... right... that's 100% without any errors. Roll

I compared the bast prices on the open market (hi sec).
I applied the same rule for both ships and thats the rule that i know that is used in rl too... and if you only look at jita then its your problem.
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#374 - 2012-04-11 20:19:45 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Fish Hunter wrote:
A properly tanked hulk can survive most ganks

Problem becomes that in 15min the gankers just increase their force, and win

A corp member of mine had a attempted gank on him one day, he was tanked with approx 22k ehp. The gank failed and he smiled. The next day he moved to a different system, the same guys found him, brought 4 destroyers instead of 2 and blew him up.



Then maybe he should have marked them as red, bookmarked them and payed attention when they entered system. Yea?


... but thats obviously a failing of the ship, not the player making unwise choices or failing to use the proper tools (such as his brain). Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#375 - 2012-04-11 20:20:54 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Aranakas wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Aranakas wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Did you bother to compare ore yield? No, I guess not Roll
Oh and cargo bay genius.


Ore yield when dead: 0
Ore yield when alive: 900/second

Jetisson your cargo and come back in an Iteron V.

So the gankers don't gank your hulk but your Iteron V to lough again as they doestroyed all your work within second?


An Iteron V costs like 5mil. 5mil and some ore is a lot better than 500mil and some ore if you were flying a Hulk.

I used to mine all the time in an Osprey before I realized mining was a boring **** profession. If I could do it in a cruiser, you can do it in a battleship.


I'll field this one anyway to prevent others from accidentally believing in your stupidity. I once tried to do the same thing in a Ferox (which did better then a retriever in terms of ore) and then a Rohk. For starters, do to how broken mining is all by itself, you might as well get out and try to make isk by using a shovel instead. It is not going to be worth the time. You then add to that hauling the ore and travel time, and so it gets even worse if you're on your own. Which you will be because mining ops want ore ships.



After the fact, people eventually figure out that your "that guy" who always uses jetcans. You will warp away to your Iteron only to find out that, when you get back, the other guy has move all of the ore you just mined into their can (but they named it yours). So you can no longer get to the ore, and so then you need to get back to more mining. End result, it does not work in reality. Reality. That is an important thing for some of you to consider, because things don't always turn out the way your little brains imagine it to.


Reality.


Fit your Iteron V like this lol

[Iteron Mark V, Battle Iteron V]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Small Armor Repairer II
Small Armor Repairer II

Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200

Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#376 - 2012-04-11 20:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
bornaa wrote:
[So common market for you is only larger market that gives that price to damnation... right... that's 100% without any errors. Roll
No. Common market for me is the most commonly used point of comparison, since it's one of the driving forces of the economy overall, where trading itself — not proximity — determines where prices are going (and where prices in the rest of the universe will go).

Jita is a place where you can find anything and everything under one roof; where everything is subject to the same influence; and where the volume is large enough to make sure trends quickly propagate through all kinds of goods.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#377 - 2012-04-11 20:22:33 UTC
Can we get this thread moved to Ships & Modules, please?

It's interfering with our General Discussion.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#378 - 2012-04-11 20:23:28 UTC
Forgot to mention: Crimewatch in the expansion will fix can-flipping.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#379 - 2012-04-11 20:24:00 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


Do you realize that the reason for this is more than simply making it easier to stay in a group to make your haulers life easier?



not really on point but why do Marauders have +tractor range?


To pick up loot cans much more efficiently, much like Orcas can pick up jet cans (say from aligned Hulks) that can't stay right next to them.

Why?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
bornaa
GRiD.
#380 - 2012-04-11 20:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: bornaa
Tippia wrote:
bornaa wrote:
[So common market for you is only larger market that gives that price to damnation... right... that's 100% without any errors. Roll
No. Common market for me is the most commonly used point of comparison, since it's one of the driving forces of the economy overall, where trading itself — not proximity — determines where prices are going (and where prices in the rest of the universe will go).


Ill just say XD
and that you dont know what open market is.
Or just saying anything so that you dont need to say that i am right.
I gave you the proof after you attacked me and now proof is no good for you...
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)