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New Dev Blog: Carebearing 2.0

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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#381 - 2012-04-11 17:36:08 UTC
fenistil wrote:



It would be an interesting thing to know what % of all minerals are being supplied by drone regions now.


I think it went out in a tweet a while back from my hero John Turbefield ( CCP Diagoras ) but I'm not sure. I remember seeing 40% of all high end minerals coming from drone compounds and they only count for 10% of NPC deaths. Which means the other 60% is coming from mining and loot of Pirate NPCs or faction rats if you are a null sec mission runner.

So understand that if they are removing all drone compounds and all meta 0 loot then mining will probably need to more than double it's current output of highend ores. I hope that CCP has taken this into account and will kick up the spawn rates of ABC ore accordingly. Maybe even change the ore versus sec status spawn calculator and have ABC ores start out in -0.3 or -0.4 space instead of Crockite not appearing before -0.7 I think is where it's at now.

Also no one is mentioning the amount of manufacturing that will need to take place to replace those meta 0 drops are they increasing the build slots in stations?

these changes will be huge and prices on everything will be fuxored in the mean time.

Also if you own null sec space get you industry upgrades installed like yesterday.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#382 - 2012-04-11 17:36:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Sutha Moliko wrote:
Is the next move will be to remove the moon harvesting (passive) and replace it with moon mining (active) ?
Is it the way to attract once again miners in 0.0 ?

We used to say : "It should always be more profitable to mine in low and null sec than in high sec".

Small tweaks are the way to go because they can have a great impact on the whole economy.
Most of us should be able to see the greater scheme behind Carebearing 2.

I used to pay morphite 8-10k, Megacyte 6k and Zydrine 3k prior to Apocrypha. Why are my ships so expensive today ? Look at Trit, Pyerite, Mexallon prices. Something behind the mineral basket ?

Today, we should look to the past and the future reunited in the same moment and we will see the whole universe in movement.
I have faith in you CCP. I believe in the Butterfly Effect Cool


Ships are rising because bots got squashed.
Bots could afford continuously replacing their mining ships, real players cannot.

The buff to destroyers, buff to hybrid ammo, introduction of T3 BCs, the addition of interdictions, rackets, Bat Country operations on top of Hulkageddon all together make hi sec much riskier to live in and this immediately reflects on mineral prices.
This is why for the first time you see Trit and similar rise *at the same time* of high ends, while in the past the mineral basket (a feature we had in the past, I have to specify it due to diverse grades of posters reading) almost made sure to always have low ends tank when high ends rose in price.

Now, add some speculation about the next patch and you see the price spikes.

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EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#383 - 2012-04-11 17:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
the mineral basket theory hasn't been correct for years since insurance got nerfed

Edit: Inappropriate comment removed, CCP Phantom
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#384 - 2012-04-11 17:44:30 UTC
death2allminers

wootinator prime is a go begin launching the wootinators and let it rain catalysts
Severian Carnifex
#385 - 2012-04-11 17:47:51 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Severian Carnifex wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Severian Carnifex wrote:
Lifelongnoob wrote:
with mineral prices set to increase supercap pilots will be very nervous about losing them... a good thing imo Lol

200bil isk titan hull will become the norm



We will see smaller hulls in the game for a change. Big smile
We will see ships that people didn't fly because they had too much money...Big smile

Unfortunatly for you, the rising mineral prices aren't affecting faction/t2 ships much, if at all. Currently faction navy ships are looking more appealing than t1 battleships because the price gap has decreased significantly.


Well, I am looking forward T2 versions of smaller ships too... P
And after this cruiser/frigate boost... cruisers that will be used and not just ignored... Cool
I like that idea... Big smile

But there is one problem in that yours calculation.
T1 ships you can insure... and T2/faction you cant... so... T1 will be used.

Shhh insurance is an seecr3t.



LOL Lol
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#386 - 2012-04-11 18:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
the mineral basket theory hasn't been correct for years since insurance got nerfed


That's why I typed IN THE PAST.

Edit: Inappropriate comment removed, CCP Phantom

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#387 - 2012-04-11 18:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Shandir wrote:

Have you considered not doing this, because I don't believe anyone missioning likes metal scraps - they're useless clutter and it would be easier to loot if you simply dropped nothing.


If we had an easy way of removing the Meta 0 and not adding metal scraps we'd have done that, it's just that the system isn't set up in a way that makes that a particularly easy task, and we had other work we wanted to get done this release as well (Incursion balance, drone balance etc).


If you're willing to go all the way in the removal of scrap metal drops, you could wrap the loot code in something like this:
loot_list = [ item for item in loot_from_loot_table(npc) if item != 'scrap metal' ]

Quote:

There are no competitively profitable sources of low-ends in nullsec, at least at current prices. Veldspar alone makes up 40-60% of nullsec ore by units available, it's just that people would rather be mining ABCs. That's an entirely different issue to there not being "enough" low-ends out there, and the situation is complicated by the fact that any boost to low-end acquisition in nullsec is a nerf to hisec mining more-or-less by default.


I don't think it matters too much because most things in null sec are imported from high sec anyway. There just isn't enough industrial capacity in null sec to make use of the massive quantity of Veldspar that already exists. That's why people mine ABCs - so that its profitable to transport back to high sec and sell. It really doesn't make financial sense to mine Veldspar in null sec, and maybe it really shouldn't. Its the same phenomenon of buying faction ammo and manufacturing+selling more expensive faction items with their own LP.

At any rate, IME minerals coming back to low and null sec are compressed. Also: the current compression system (both Rorq and Guns) is horrific and should be fixed. WTB Compressed Trit that can be used directly in the manufacturing process...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#388 - 2012-04-11 20:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Houm... so miners now spend 300 million ISK to set up a Hulk and earn 6 million an hour, and that should change for spending 400 million in a Hulk to earn 8 million an hour. Blink


a) People bought hulks back when they were 400-500M ISK. If they couldn't afford that then they stayed in their Covetors (which are only 15% worse then a hulk at max skills).

b) Since hi-sec ores are currently in the 150-220 ISK/m3 range and a solo Hulk pilot can mine about 100k m3/hr, that means today's hulk pilots are earning 15-22M ISK/hr. Which makes it a lot easier to afford that new hulk, even when using a Covetor.



I would love to see your sources, as my own experience is closer to 75k m3 per hour (18k hold, roughly 4 shifts per hour) and they would sell for about 5 to 6 million ISK. And I am talking about the best priced mineral in my neck of the woods, you know. Veldpsar would hand out some 4 million at most (which made easy to spot bots, as nobody else cared about veldspar).

I hope you understand that your nubmers sound a lot like the famous "100 million an hour running incursions". Anyway I may sail out tonight and see what do I get...

PS: 4.9 million in 30 minutes, and my cargo hold is on the 16k m3. Not bad.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#389 - 2012-04-11 21:07:34 UTC
Really?
Really after everything we've tried to show CCP on how strange and wicked the mechanics are in terms of incursion spawning and despawning. The whole mothership spawn and delay of killing the mom for 5-6 days until it's been cleaned dry?
Not even a change in influence mechanics or anything?

I can't say I am impressed, actually color me disappointed if anything.
I'd let the doubt come CCP to rescue and would like to hear why you haven't iterated or even hinted at changing anything regarding the de-spawning mechanics and similar? Is it lack of time/development resources or is the general consensus that the ability to remove an incursion after 4 hours isn't a broken mechanic?

For I will sure as hell show you it's broken. Starvation of carebears for months and months should prove this to you.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#390 - 2012-04-11 21:29:12 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
Grideris wrote:
So are you still looking at boosting Assault and HQ sites a little more? Or is this is for balancing Incursions?

Also, approve of the drone alloy -> bounty changes. More power to the miners!



We want to wait and see how these changes pan out and then we will look at further changes if we feel it's necessary :) I don't think we can ever say 'balancing is done' about any feature.



?!?!?! In the feature section of Escalation it says that Assaults will be 'sped' up how is that going to happen? Am I mistaken or are you contracticting yourself in saying assaults won't be 'boosted' in Escalation? How will assaults be sped up? The only way I can see it is with deleting a room of the NCNs, getting rid of NCNs, or preventing NCNs from stacking like they always do.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#391 - 2012-04-11 22:02:46 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
CCP Affinity wrote:
Shpenat wrote:
CCP Affinity Thanks for keeping an eye on this thread. The changes are generally good but can you please comment on few issues?


  1. Drone region
  2. Balancing incursion is a step in right direction. But as some people above me said: Having predictable spawn trigger removes a lot of challenge. With proposed system the situation will evolve to "warp to site -> kill every red cross in the order of known priority -› get new bunch of red crosses -> repeat until no red crosses spawn". With random spawn trigger the challenge will be much higher because you can get overrunned very fast if not paying attention. Is the spawn mechanism already set in stone or is there still a room for change?


EDIT: Seems like CCP Greyscale already answered #1
CCP Greyscale wrote:

As a general point, these Drone changes are the first steps towards


To answer question 2 - at the moment we don't want to make any further changes to Incursions until we see how these changes affect things on TQ. However, this doesn't mean we are done looking at the trigger/spawn mechanics, we would just like to see these changes in action first and get further feedback after that.



Excuse me but it specifically says "Vanguard invasions will now take a bit longer, while the time to complete an Assault invasions will be reduced some" so a nerf to Vanguards & a buff to assaults correct ? CCP is making assaults faster as promise unless I missed something on http://community.eveonline.com/en/inferno/features/

I haven't seen anything about assaults this on the DEV blog like how Vanguards are nerfed... an assult speed up to me is an actual feature not a nerf
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Kalestra Cable
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#392 - 2012-04-12 01:28:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalestra Cable
Went looking around Etherium Reach so far in the various belts.

Drone Queen 1.85 Mil
Patriach 1.55Mil
Drone Creator 1.4Mil
Drone Ruler 1.25Mil
Domination Drone 950k
Spearhead Drone 800k
Swarm Preserver 650k
Drone Controller 500k
Exterminator Drone 225k
Viral Infector 80k
Disintegrator 95k
Defeator 185k
Atomizer 110k
Violator 87.5k
Strain Splinter 25.5k
Crippler 195k
Striker Drone 205k
Nuker 117.5k
Siege Drone 215k
Dismantler 22.5k
Marauder 21k
Barracuda 13k
Devilfish 12k

Oh and as expected no loot drops

The R-6 loop is 50/50 split between 0.0 and -0.1 space, the F9 group is 3x -0.4, 2x -0.5 and a -0.7

Still looking around the map etc for other space, top end of Kalevala 2Q was decent enough with lots of -1.0 systems.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#393 - 2012-04-12 01:33:28 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

I would love to see your sources, as my own experience is closer to 75k m3 per hour (18k hold, roughly 4 shifts per hour) and they would sell for about 5 to 6 million ISK. And I am talking about the best priced mineral in my neck of the woods, you know. Veldpsar would hand out some 4 million at most (which made easy to spot bots, as nobody else cared about veldspar).


Standard (1) MLU2 Hulk fit with (3) MSM2 and (5) Mining Drone I pulls in 93k m3 of ore per hour in a perfect world, that goes up to 96k m3 if you have all level V skills. The T1 mining drones add 13% to your output, otherwise you'd only be getting 85k/hr. Add T2 mining drones and that goes up to 104k m3/hr. Subtract 6 minutes each hour for hauling and you end up right around 90-95k m3/hr. Fits which sacrifice all tank get another 7-8% from the 2nd MLU2.

Add boosts from an Orca and you'll pickup another 40-65% production per hour.

It's also your decision to stay and mine Veldspar at 175 ISK/m3 when you could move 10-15 jumps and get Pyrox at 220 ISK/m3 (25% more pay per hour).
Davo OHno
The Sagan Clan
#394 - 2012-04-12 01:50:51 UTC
Kalestra Cable wrote:
Went looking around Etherium Reach so far in the various belts.

Patriach 1.55Mil
Drone Creator 1.4Mil
Domination Drone 950k
Spearhead Drone 800k
Swarm Preserver 650k
Viral Infector 80k
Disintegrator 95k
Defeator 185k
Atomizer 110k
Violator 87.5k
Strain Splinter 25.5k
Crippler 195k
Striker Drone 205k
Nuker 117.5k
Siege Drone 215k
Dismantler 22.5k
Marauder 21k
Barracuda 13k
Devilfish 12k

Oh and as expected no loot drops

The R-6 loop is 50/50 split between 0.0 and -0.1 space, the F9 group is 3x -0.4, 2x -0.5 and a -0.7

Still looking around the map etc for other space, top end of Kalevala 2Q was decent enough with lots of -1.0 systems.



Wow, those are just right crappy bounties. No balancing at all for the lack of drone droppings. That on top of the nerf to the region true sec status, and Etherium Reach got SKREWED.
Orian NiKunni
Orian's EvE Communications
#395 - 2012-04-12 04:40:59 UTC
So where is the technetium nerf/re-balance?
Kyara Heranah
NightSong Holdings
NightSong Directorate
#396 - 2012-04-12 06:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyara Heranah
DAMN IT CCP! Stop doing this! Great, you get rid of drone alloy, yes you've been telling us this all along. What you haven't let everyone know about is that your NINJA NERFING the drone regions at the same time.


***** STOP!, LOOK WHAT YOUR DOING AGAIN!! *****


CCP, just over a year ago you decided it was time to make changes to Nullsec ratting. Just a couple of months ago you finally admitted that those changes were a mistake. Now we have bounties that don't add up, we dont get sec status from it, AND YOUR DROPPING TRUE-SEC STATUS?!?. Now, maybe I'm missing it but, you are messing up what players have done based on those very same securities. Are you adding a new abundance of Tech Moons to all the systems you are dropping? Are you in fact doing anything to make the space worth staying in? What do we actually get out of this change that helps the next person who goes into that region?

This is a thing that could only have been done by one person: CCP Goonscale [edited to reflect his new name]


CCP Affinity wrote:
Visreae wrote:

Do you think in the future, before you make these changes, you could post your intentions and thoughts and get our feedback BEFORE you wreck an economy?


and we did have forum threads, CSM feedback + fanfest feedback


And there we have it folks, hell will really freeze over: CCP Goonscale has a mini-me.


Im failing to see the forum posts for the layman telling us that you are nerfing sec status.... What I do see is that you are listening to a GOON led CSM that holds nice tech moons and will only profit from your wonton destruction of other regions. Look at it this way: Drone Regions as are > take loot = Worth 0isk | add bounties = worth 1/2 what it started at | subtract status > worth half again what it is worth with just the bounties.

To hard? Basically the regions are now worth a quarter of what they were. Shut it down, there is nothing to be made here, better go back to Highsec, I hear they made Assaults easier and VG's pay the same still just take 5 minutes longer. Lets fill up on the billions!

SERIOUSLY CCP: Why in the world do you need to now change the security status to crap? These regions arent supposed to be LOWSEC, this is not where you bring your bastard child, Faction Warfare, to feed on the carcasses of dead capsuleers!
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#397 - 2012-04-12 10:58:57 UTC
Shandir wrote:

Is resolving this issue with editing loot tables on your backlog, if so - where? (Next expansion, 1-2 yr, Not Planned)
Also, out of curiosity - how *does* it work, it's hard to imagine a sane system where this would be an issue.


It's not on any immediate backlog that I'm aware of, but I may just not be aware of it. The system as-is is pretty reasonable when you're creating or changing small numbers of NPCs, because it lets you tune loot on a per-NPC basis; it's just when you want to update the loot of hundreds at once that it seems backwards, and that's something we do once in a blue moon. It's not technically difficult, it's just very time-consuming.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#398 - 2012-04-12 10:59:07 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Alice Katsuko wrote:
Belts in the drone regions are no different from belts elsewhere. The big problem, and one that has been pointed out repeatedly elsewhere is that there are no good sources of low-end minerals in null. That is, the only time folk will mine low ends is so that they can roll and respawn a hidden belt for additional high-ends, and that is done only by big multi-player operations or by players who run a half-dozen max-skilled Hulks for hours at a time. What CCP should have done was introduce the miner equivalent of Plush compound, which is a huge source of tritanium and also accounts for half the value of a Drone Patrol or Horde. Or something similar.

As always: I don't have anything against buffing mining or removing drone alloys, so long as it's not done in isolation.


There are no competitively profitable sources of low-ends in nullsec, at least at current prices. Veldspar alone makes up 40-60% of nullsec ore by units available, it's just that people would rather be mining ABCs. That's an entirely different issue to there not being "enough" low-ends out there, and the situation is complicated by the fact that any boost to low-end acquisition in nullsec is a nerf to hisec mining more-or-less by default.


Sorry Gray Scale this is where CCP raw statistics don't take into account actual play:

Intro
Ask you self why do people mine ABC vs Other ores
– It is not an issue profitable nor there being enough low ends it is an issue of Ease and safety! If those Ores were available then you would find those mining in High sec would be moving to null sec. Decreasing the Demand and Supply There fore no nerf and empire peeps will be able to find more asteroids to mine a buff.

In null sec High ends (ABC) are a lot easier and safer to come by because:
--> System upgrades produce hidden, difficult to scan, High Volume high quality roids that a hulk can sit at mine continuously for hours
--> In Regular belts the unit number may be small but the size per unit is large so a Hulk can get several cycles of a mining stripper off before the asteroid pops
Comparatively To mine Veldspar it is difficult because
-->The units of veldspare are the same number as ABC but the Size per unit is only a small fraction of the size, so they deplete extremely fast
-->This leaves the hulks to mine veldspar on regular belts which is a lot more dangerous as they are on the over view and can quickly be warped to.
--> The units of Veldspar may be large but the volume of veldspar isn't you may only get 2-3 cycles per roid before they pop. Resulting in a lot of partial cycles and a lot of relocating to collect veldspare to complete a manufacturing quota.

My Speciality for the past 5 years has been organizing null sec mining ops, and this is the biggest bottle neck for self sustaining mining in null sec. Other wise the same status quote will happen – Mine Safe High ends in Upgraded belts ship them to empire in exchange for Empire ores in Empire which are compressed plates and jump them to Null sec. I though the current push for null sec is to be independent of Jita

Requested Recommendation:
For hidden Upgraded Belts
--> Substitute the Sportsman Asteroid with Veldspar but increase the unit sizes so a hulk has to mine the same volume to finish it off. (that would be so awesome)
-->Allow us to instal mining upgrade that can change the make up of the asteriod. If there was a level 1 mining upgrade that contained only Empire base ores you would be the toast of the town.(as we could just keep flipping that one belt over and over till we got the empire ores we needed) (this one fix would make null sec self sustainable and allow miners to fill local quotas easily)
-->Allow us to instal mining upgrades that focus on Hebergite and lower would solve the Noxium bottle neck that is currently felt.
For standard null sec belts
--> increase the amount of veldspar in each asteroid
Or Bring out new tools to mine
- Bring out a tool that would allow use to mine multiple asteroids as once ie a Mining drone the size of fighters that can only hit Empire ore types, to allow Carriers and and Super Carriers to mine 10 to 20 asteroids at the same time. Via jet can mining. Leaving the high end and longer to mine asteroids for barges to complete.

When dominion came out, the mining up grades encourage mining for profit (ship it and sell it to jita) not mine for local production.
Nerfing the drone regions of ores will not increase the number of miners on the bets. It will just limit the production with in that one region. (the CSM didn't ask the right people what will solve the problem.)

In summary:
Make all ores as easy to come by as ABCs. This will encourage the miners who would have been out in null sec for production out there. As it sits with the Dominion Expansion they are in empire where Empire ores are easier and safe to come by. Also remember Upgrade Belts Flip, Regular belts don't.
Increasing the access and safety to Empire ore will move those miners who mine for production out to null sec, there for decreasing the supply and demand for Empire ores resulting in a Buff to empire mining since asteroids will be easier to come by.



This is good info, thanks.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#399 - 2012-04-12 11:15:14 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Has CCP ever considered the idea of "ingots"? Create a Trit, Pyer, Mex, Iso Ingot BPOs (Low ends) that has no waste at all. Allow it to compress minerals into "industrial ingots", then Null can export these from high-sec and reprocess them out in Null using Scrap Metal skill. The compression need not be any better than the current methods used. The resulting ingots can be quite large since freighters and JFs are the usual transportation. 10 million trit compressed into blocks the size of what ever keeps parity with current methods, 425s ring a bell.


Yup. It's not being actively pursued right now, but it's one way we've looked at of of addressing compression head-on.

Kyara Heranah wrote:


SERIOUSLY CCP: Why in the world do you need to now change the security status to crap? These regions arent supposed to be LOWSEC, this is not where you bring your bastard child, Faction Warfare, to feed on the carcasses of dead capsuleers!


Here are some stats.

Currently on TQ, the average sec status for all non-drone nullsec regions is -0.33. The average sec status for the drone regions is -0.58. Post change, the average sec status for the drone regions will be -0.44.

Of the twenty-six non-drone regions, the current counts for -1.0 systems are: 4,4,4,3,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.The current counts for the drone regions are: 6,5,5,4,4,4,2,2,1. After the change they become 5,4,4,4,3,3,2,0

For systems with a sec of -0.8 and below, non-drone regions: 24,17,15,11,10,9,9,9,8,8,6,6,5,4,4,3,3,3,3,2,1,1,0,0,0,0
Current drone regions: 30,25,25,24,23,20,18,17
Drone regions after the change: 18,17,14,12,12,10,10,5
Kalestra Cable
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#400 - 2012-04-12 11:31:51 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
[
some stats


How many of those regions have bounty giving rats that drop no loot?? Big smile