These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New Dev Blog: Carebearing 2.0

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#361 - 2012-04-11 15:24:25 UTC
Onar Maldarian wrote:
Incursions in high sec are just ret@rded. You can do way more ISK than with ratting or even with anomalies in some cases, with 0 risk. It's either you make people able to attack pilots inside incursions or you remove them from high sec. Ret@rded.

Confirming that it is impossible to target incursion runners and that they are immune to smartbombs and ecm burst.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#362 - 2012-04-11 15:25:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Gevlin wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Alice Katsuko wrote:
Belts in the drone regions are no different from belts elsewhere. The big problem, and one that has been pointed out repeatedly elsewhere is that there are no good sources of low-end minerals in null. That is, the only time folk will mine low ends is so that they can roll and respawn a hidden belt for additional high-ends, and that is done only by big multi-player operations or by players who run a half-dozen max-skilled Hulks for hours at a time. What CCP should have done was introduce the miner equivalent of Plush compound, which is a huge source of tritanium and also accounts for half the value of a Drone Patrol or Horde. Or something similar.

As always: I don't have anything against buffing mining or removing drone alloys, so long as it's not done in isolation.


There are no competitively profitable sources of low-ends in nullsec, at least at current prices. Veldspar alone makes up 40-60% of nullsec ore by units available, it's just that people would rather be mining ABCs. That's an entirely different issue to there not being "enough" low-ends out there, and the situation is complicated by the fact that any boost to low-end acquisition in nullsec is a nerf to hisec mining more-or-less by default.


Sorry Gray Scale this is where CCP raw statistics don't take into account actual play:

Intro
Ask you self why do people mine ABC vs Other ores
– It is not an issue profitable nor there being enough low ends it is an issue of Ease and safety! If those Ores were available then you would find those mining in High sec would be moving to null sec. Decreasing the Demand and Supply There fore no nerf and empire peeps will be able to find more asteroids to mine a buff.

In null sec High ends (ABC) are a lot easier and safer to come by because:
--> System upgrades produce hidden, difficult to scan, High Volume high quality roids that a hulk can sit at mine continuously for hours
--> In Regular belts the unit number may be small but the size per unit is large so a Hulk can get several cycles of a mining stripper off before the asteroid pops
Comparatively To mine Veldspar it is difficult because
-->The units of veldspare are the same number as ABC but the Size per unit is only a small fraction of the size, so they deplete extremely fast
-->This leaves the hulks to mine veldspar on regular belts which is a lot more dangerous as they are on the over view and can quickly be warped to.
--> The units of Veldspar may be large but the volume of veldspar isn't you may only get 2-3 cycles per roid before they pop. Resulting in a lot of partial cycles and a lot of relocating to collect veldspare to complete a manufacturing quota.

My Speciality for the past 5 years has been organizing null sec mining ops, and this is the biggest bottle neck for self sustaining mining in null sec. Other wise the same status quote will happen – Mine Safe High ends in Upgraded belts ship them to empire in exchange for Empire ores in Empire which are compressed plates and jump them to Null sec. I though the current push for null sec is to be independent of Jita

Requested Recommendation:
For hidden Upgraded Belts
--> Substitute the Sportsman Asteroid with Veldspar but increase the unit sizes so a hulk has to mine the same volume to finish it off. (that would be so awesome)
-->Allow us to instal mining upgrade that can change the make up of the asteriod. If there was a level 1 mining upgrade that contained only Empire base ores you would be the toast of the town.(as we could just keep flipping that one belt over and over till we got the empire ores we needed) (this one fix would make null sec self sustainable and allow miners to fill local quotas easily)
-->Allow us to instal mining upgrades that focus on Hebergite and lower would solve the Noxium bottle neck that is currently felt.
For standard null sec belts
--> increase the amount of veldspar in each asteroid
Or Bring out new tools to mine
- Bring out a tool that would allow use to mine multiple asteroids as once ie a Mining drone the size of fighters that can only hit Empire ore types, to allow Carriers and and Super Carriers to mine 10 to 20 asteroids at the same time. Via jet can mining. Leaving the high end and longer to mine asteroids for barges to complete.

When dominion came out, the mining up grades encourage mining for profit (ship it and sell it to jita) not mine for local production.
Nerfing the drone regions of ores will not increase the number of miners on the bets. It will just limit the production with in that one region. (the CSM didn't ask the right people what will solve the problem.)

In summary:
Make all ores as easy to come by as ABCs. This will encourage the miners who would have been out in null sec for production out there. As it sits with the Dominion Expansion they are in empire where Empire ores are easier and safe to come by. Also remember Upgrade Belts Flip, Regular belts don't.
Increasing the access and safety to Empire ore will move those miners who mine for production out to null sec, there for decreasing the supply and demand for Empire ores resulting in a Buff to empire mining since asteroids will be easier to come by.


I don't believe that the goal was ever, nor will it ever be, to make any region or particular security status completely independent of other area's for major production.

Not having everything you need easily accessable is a big conflict driver. This is a good thing.

Trade between Null, Low, and High Sec is encouraged. The need to either make yourself a little more vulnerable when collecting certain resources, or when moving those resources in freighters/convoys is a GOAL... not something to be avoided.

In EVE, one of the 10 commandments is DO COVET THY NEIGHBORS STUFF

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#363 - 2012-04-11 15:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselFinance
0.0 manufacturing should be fixed by allowing multiple outposts per system and/or buffing upgrades so a reasonable refinery/factory can be created (even if it's at great expense)

then, by making specific compression mods so we can end this stupid 5 year experiment on what happens if you nerf compression that was intended to actually have freighter ops to move uncompressed trit

compressed trit, compressed pyerite, compressed mex blueprints, at some reasonable compression ratio, and presto 0.0 manufacturing is fixed without needing to nerf highsec
Lemming Alpha1dash1
Lemmings Online
#364 - 2012-04-11 15:37:23 UTC
Carebearing 2.0 Roflmao


Eve already has auto-looting

what's nxt auto D-scanning ? Bear

Information is Ammunition,

War does not tolerate Ambiguities.

May you live in an interesting Empyrean age !

http://eve-radio.com/
Wukulo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#365 - 2012-04-11 15:38:13 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
[quote=fenistil]CCP Affinity,
** We have a chance of picking from a given loot table, and then ratios for each type within the table. If we just removed the Meta 0 stuff, we'd end up dropping WAY more Meta 1-4, which isn't desirable, and the only way to resolve this is to alter the table pick rates, which are authored on a per-NPC basis, which would mean recalculating and adjusting every NPC in the game. This isn't really viable within the scope of this release, and we don't want to push this change back because it means doing a "double shock" to mineral prices; hence the metal scraps.



I dunno. It kind of sounds like a good chance to overhaul the madness of a loot system you just described.

Posted on main because I'm not a coward like the rest of you.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#366 - 2012-04-11 15:45:28 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
0.0 manufacturing should be fixed by allowing multiple outposts per system and/or buffing upgrades so a reasonable refinery/factory can be created (even if it's at great expense)

then, by making specific compression mods so we can end this stupid 5 year experiment on what happens if you nerf compression that was intended to actually have freighter ops to move uncompressed trit

compressed trit, compressed pyerite, compressed mex blueprints, at some reasonable compression ratio, and presto 0.0 manufacturing is fixed without needing to nerf highsec


You can keep saying it all you like, but in no way is anything thus far discussed a nerf to high sec.

We know that eventually we will see a redistribution of resources and/or capabilites between the various security levels in EVE, but moves to make one area completely independant from the others are likely not on the table.

Nor should they be.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#367 - 2012-04-11 15:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Lemming Alpha1dash1 wrote:
Carebearing 2.0 Roflmao


Eve already has auto-looting

what's nxt auto D-scanning ? Bear


The introduction of a continuous short range scanning mechanic has been discussed many times as an alternative to local, which many feel is a system wide instant intel mechanism.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#368 - 2012-04-11 15:55:32 UTC
Quote:


I don't believe that the goal was ever, nor will it ever be, to make any region or particular security status completely independent of other area's for major production.

Not having everything you need easily accessable is a big conflict driver. This is a good thing.

Trade between Null, Low, and High Sec is encouraged. The need to either make yourself a little more vulnerable when collecting certain resources, or when moving those resources in freighters/convoys is a GOAL... not something to be avoided.

In EVE, one of the 10 commandments is DO COVET THY NEIGHBORS STUFF


Do you want more Hulks to shoot at or do you want more jump freighters

In null sec for production it is jump Sell Moon goo and (ABC minerals for the odd corp) to Jita, buy Plates and other compress mineral components jump them to null sec, refine and build your stuff.
Which means no miners to shoot in Null sec.
No Targets for roams, - no small gang warfare.

If you want to live in Null sec, you rat for isk and you ship the stuff you want to use from Jita.
Access to Isk is too easy in Null sec but the Access to basic building blocks is high risk.



Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#369 - 2012-04-11 15:56:15 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

You can keep saying it all you like, but in no way is anything thus far discussed a nerf to high sec.

what the hell are you talking about
Neddy Fox
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#370 - 2012-04-11 16:14:30 UTC
@ Greayscale, concerning 9/10 :

35 jumps, cmon . Jita is closer.
Davo OHno
The Sagan Clan
#371 - 2012-04-11 16:18:45 UTC
The funny thing is... You all think CCP is doing this to help the game.

It's about plex sales and the corporate wallet. We screamed about AUR and RMT for "vanity" items. So what other way could CCP create more sales of their already existing PLEX? Raise the in game cost of items, so that either players have to grind much longer to afford, or they simply pay for plex.

Simple as that. This isn't about improving game play, or balancing regions. This is about corporate profitability, under the guise of improvements.
Adunh Slavy
#372 - 2012-04-11 16:20:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
CCP Greyscale wrote:

If we had an easy way of removing the Meta 0 and not adding metal scraps we'd have done that, it's just that the system isn't set up in a way that makes that a particularly easy task, ...


Just out of pure technical curiosity, why is it difficult? Is there a funky cross reference table in the DB, is it a tokenized string?

CCP Greyscale wrote:

There are no competitively profitable sources of low-ends in nullsec, at least at current prices. Veldspar alone makes up 40-60% of nullsec ore by units available, it's just that people would rather be mining ABCs. That's an entirely different issue to there not being "enough" low-ends out there, and the situation is complicated by the fact that any boost to low-end acquisition in nullsec is a nerf to hisec mining more-or-less by default.


Has CCP ever considered the idea of "ingots"? Create a Trit, Pyer, Mex, Iso Ingot BPOs (Low ends) that has no waste at all. Allow it to compress minerals into "industrial ingots", then Null can export these from high-sec and reprocess them out in Null using Scrap Metal skill. The compression need not be any better than the current methods used. The resulting ingots can be quite large since freighters and JFs are the usual transportation. 10 million trit compressed into blocks the size of what ever keeps parity with current methods, 425s ring a bell.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Deathwing Reborn
#373 - 2012-04-11 16:21:40 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
It's a shame *all* drone alloys and such are being removed from drops.

They're a nice flavour item, and all it's going to do is turn the bits left into more collectors pieces. I'd personally much prefer it if a few drone NPC's, perhaps the few named ones or funky ones like NPC interceptors, did still drop some drone alloys. Enough that there's still a trickle of them in the game.


Also, question to CCP Affinity/Soundwave : For things like the 1/10 DED drone sites which have spawn containers in, will they still contain drone alloys or have those been changed as well?



I dont think they have thought that far enough ahead. At least it doesn't seem that way with the rest of their "plans" for drones. Very little thought went into these changes and were a last minute oh ya, we said we were going to do this didnt we, better throw something together.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#374 - 2012-04-11 16:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gevlin
Simply allow us the option to install an alternative Prospecting array for levels 1 and 2 that would substitute VOLUME, not units, of the rare ores for the more common ores.
Leaving the Ugly Spoduman in place as the is the Cost of mining in Relative safety and with out wasted cycles in a hidden belt and prevent it from being flipped too quickly

This alone would give the option of miners who mine for Production to be useful in Null sec. Moving them out of empire space and into Null sec to Provide more targets to be shot at for small roams.

Before I left null sec for a break. I was ratting belts for Carrier spawns to gain the Mineral to fill the quota needed for Trit and Pyre. As that was easier and safer than trying to mine in belts for the same amount of minerals... The isk for bounties was an added bonus!

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#375 - 2012-04-11 16:49:43 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
Simply allow us the option to install an alternative Prospecting array for levels 1 and 2 that would substitute VOLUME, not units, of the rare ores for the more common ores.
Leaving the Ugly Spoduman in place as the is the Cost of mining in Relative safety and with out wasted cycles in a hidden belt and prevent it from being flipped too quickly

This alone would give the option of miners who mine for Production to be useful in Null sec. Moving them out of empire space and into Null sec to Provide more targets to be shot at for small roams.

Before I left null sec for a break. I was ratting belts for Carrier spawns to gain the Mineral to fill the quota needed for Trit and Pyre. As that was easier and safer than trying to mine in belts for the same amount of minerals... The isk for bounties was an added bonus!

anyone who mines lowends in 0.0 is a moron

period
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#376 - 2012-04-11 17:06:42 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Gevlin wrote:
Simply allow us the option to install an alternative Prospecting array for levels 1 and 2 that would substitute VOLUME, not units, of the rare ores for the more common ores.
Leaving the Ugly Spoduman in place as the is the Cost of mining in Relative safety and with out wasted cycles in a hidden belt and prevent it from being flipped too quickly

This alone would give the option of miners who mine for Production to be useful in Null sec. Moving them out of empire space and into Null sec to Provide more targets to be shot at for small roams.

Before I left null sec for a break. I was ratting belts for Carrier spawns to gain the Mineral to fill the quota needed for Trit and Pyre. As that was easier and safer than trying to mine in belts for the same amount of minerals... The isk for bounties was an added bonus!

anyone who mines lowends in 0.0 is a moron

period

But mining out an entire system is FUN.
Severian Carnifex
#377 - 2012-04-11 17:16:13 UTC
Lifelongnoob wrote:
with mineral prices set to increase supercap pilots will be very nervous about losing them... a good thing imo Lol

200bil isk titan hull will become the norm



We will see smaller hulls in the game for a change. Big smile
We will see ships that people didn't fly because they had too much money...Big smile
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#378 - 2012-04-11 17:19:53 UTC
Severian Carnifex wrote:
Lifelongnoob wrote:
with mineral prices set to increase supercap pilots will be very nervous about losing them... a good thing imo Lol

200bil isk titan hull will become the norm



We will see smaller hulls in the game for a change. Big smile
We will see ships that people didn't fly because they had too much money...Big smile

Unfortunatly for you, the rising mineral prices aren't affecting faction/t2 ships much, if at all. Currently faction navy ships are looking more appealing than t1 battleships because the price gap has decreased significantly.
Severian Carnifex
#379 - 2012-04-11 17:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Severian Carnifex
Astroniomix wrote:
Severian Carnifex wrote:
Lifelongnoob wrote:
with mineral prices set to increase supercap pilots will be very nervous about losing them... a good thing imo Lol

200bil isk titan hull will become the norm



We will see smaller hulls in the game for a change. Big smile
We will see ships that people didn't fly because they had too much money...Big smile

Unfortunatly for you, the rising mineral prices aren't affecting faction/t2 ships much, if at all. Currently faction navy ships are looking more appealing than t1 battleships because the price gap has decreased significantly.


Well, I am looking forward T2 versions of smaller ships too... P
And after this cruiser/frigate boost... cruisers that will be used and not just ignored... Cool
I like that idea... Big smile

But there is one problem in that yours calculation.
T1 ships you can insure... and T2/faction you cant... so... T1 will be used.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#380 - 2012-04-11 17:29:36 UTC
Severian Carnifex wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Severian Carnifex wrote:
Lifelongnoob wrote:
with mineral prices set to increase supercap pilots will be very nervous about losing them... a good thing imo Lol

200bil isk titan hull will become the norm



We will see smaller hulls in the game for a change. Big smile
We will see ships that people didn't fly because they had too much money...Big smile

Unfortunatly for you, the rising mineral prices aren't affecting faction/t2 ships much, if at all. Currently faction navy ships are looking more appealing than t1 battleships because the price gap has decreased significantly.


Well, I am looking forward T2 versions of smaller ships too... P
And after this cruiser/frigate boost... cruisers that will be used and not just ignored... Cool
I like that idea... Big smile

But there is one problem in that yours calculation.
T1 ships you can insure... and T2/faction you cant... so... T1 will be used.

Shhh insurance is an seecr3t.