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Transracial crosstraining. Buffed rewards pls.

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Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2012-03-28 14:17:05 UTC
It addresses the problem that this one guy doesn't feel that having all four races isn't enough of an advantage or worthwhile compared to training just one or two factions. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is the most prudent matter CCP has ever had on it's hands.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#162 - 2012-03-28 14:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Crellion
[quote=Smiling Menace]I don't get this thread at all.
REPLY: Until this poit I was with you... I also have by doubts lately...

As far I remember, T1 ships DO get better the more SP you drop on them up to level 5?
REPLY: You remember correctly! Sadly the discussion here is about something else altogether. Read it again.

Why do we need another T1 ships that's cheaper, has better stats and will no doubt rival T2's once ship bonuses are taken into account? What role will it fill that the other T1 ships can't? What problem does it address?
REPLY: It is more expensive than T1 not cheaper. It has better stats than T1 but a lot worse than T2. It will not rival T2 because they: have better base stats, have better resists, have more slots and have 2 additional bonuses of 25% each at lvl5. This will only have 5%, 2.5% and 2.5% additional random bomuses at level 5 (if you are thinking suggestion two). If you are thinking suggestion one, no bonuses particulars were given merely a general idea that it should provide a "small efficiency increase over the T1 counterpart". Your fear of competing with T2s (straight up) is quite unfounded.

We have enough problems with the ships we have without adding more that don't address a specific problem or role in the game
REPLY: This is true if you think more ships create more problems. The position is disputable. Certainly the two proposals here (one tied to new vessels and one to "bleeding" bonuses application) address a specific problem. Whether they need to have a specific role... I think in this case not. Their role (if you go down the road of suggestion 1 with the new ships) is to provide a small mark up for general purposes vessels such as T1 frigs and cruisers in specific circumstances.

Your reply more than anything evidences an air of plump boredom or some other similar je ne sais quoi... P
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#163 - 2012-03-28 14:21:02 UTC
Halete wrote:
It addresses the problem that this one guy doesn't feel that having all four races isn't enough of an advantage or worthwhile compared to training just one or two factions. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is the most prudent matter CCP has ever had on it's hands.


I love you too! Any time you like you can make a petition for mods to lock this thread and I ll sign it with both mains and 4 alts.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2012-03-28 14:31:59 UTC
Why would I do that? I wholeheartedly support your quest on being a greedy so-and-so who wants to amass power for himself lazily by out of game means. It's the purest expression of the sand-box.

Now on to more pressing matters; my unprecedented support during your campaign surely cannot go un-noticed, a pittance of 100 million ISK would show good praise and ensure my position as your side-kick for this player movement for as long as it takes to get your voice heard.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#165 - 2012-03-28 14:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Crellion
Halete wrote:
Why would I do that? I wholeheartedly support your quest on being a greedy so-and-so who wants to amass power for himself lazily by out of game means. It's the purest expression of the sand-box.

Now on to more pressing matters; my unprecedented support during your campaign surely cannot go un-noticed, a pittance of 100 million ISK would show good praise and ensure my position as your side-kick for this player movement for as long as it takes to get your voice heard.


Paragraph 1: Uhh?

Paragraph 2: Yeah we'll do something...

EDIT: On closer inspection your reply was probably copy pasted from some other thread (someone else's post...) I fully expect you to quote from "The importance of being earnest" next LolLolLol
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2012-03-28 14:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Halete
Thank-you Crellion,

I await your correspondence with bated breath.

EDIT: It's odd that you'd come to that conclusion, considering I wrote it.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#167 - 2012-03-28 17:04:14 UTC
Crellion wrote:


Well you can see it like this. Faction ships with 4 factions instead of 2 and with a small mark up in performance and a huge park up in price from current faction ships. (if they edged ahead of faction BSs it would mean 1.5 bill + price Iguess)... and there is nothing wrong with what you are suggesting.

My suggestion however is not for performance above faction but for performance between t1 and t2 and closer to t1 if anything. That's why I want them to be at the suggested prices. I know it is completely alien to EvE paradigm of "always a bit better for a hell of a lot more isk" but hey...


All-but-T1 ships that required all ship skills at 5 would be pretty well useless. At that rate why put them in game?

Quote:

As to the second one being OP: (a) perhaps I havent put it clearly that the 1st 5% p/l the vessel gets from the correct race bonus is what it gets allready so no change there. The additional performance comes from 1% of ally race and 0.5% from two hostile races... so imagine ... Omen as is today with 12km tech II web 2.5% more effective neuts and 2.5% more optimal for it's pulses... That's less than what you can do with 50 mill of hardwirings... how can it be considered OP? Shocked


12km T2 webs is not what you can do with 50M worth of hardwirings. And yes, in my hands it would be so OP as to be hilarious.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#168 - 2012-03-28 17:11:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

12km T2 webs is not what you can do with 50M worth of hardwirings. And yes, in my hands it would be so OP as to be hilarious.

-Liang


+1, I would never let Liang anywhere near 12km base T2 webs.

I wouldn't let myself anywhere near 12km base T2 webs either. They would be hilariously OP.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#169 - 2012-03-28 17:18:44 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

12km T2 webs is not what you can do with 50M worth of hardwirings. And yes, in my hands it would be so OP as to be hilarious.

-Liang


+1, I would never let Liang anywhere near 12km base T2 webs.

I wouldn't let myself anywhere near 12km base T2 webs either. They would be hilariously OP.


Oh come on - you don't want me to get 12km base webs while basically nobody else does? Twisted

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#170 - 2012-03-28 17:30:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Oh come on - you don't want me to get 12km base webs while basically nobody else does? Twisted

-Liang


If you have ISK to spare, just buy a Caldari Navy Stasis Webifier and have a field day (40-ish mil I think). I'll be docked up, hiding.

But no, I don't want you to buy a 1 mil ISK web and have more web range than most people. Or maybe I should, beacuse I'm crosstrained too...?

Does balance mean "it would fit my skill layout in a really sweet way"?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#171 - 2012-03-28 17:33:51 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Does balance mean "it would fit my skill layout in a really sweet way"?


Yes. Yes it does. Lol

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#172 - 2012-03-28 17:57:16 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

12km T2 webs is not what you can do with 50M worth of hardwirings. And yes, in my hands it would be so OP as to be hilarious.

-Liang


+1, I would never let Liang anywhere near 12km base T2 webs.

I wouldn't let myself anywhere near 12km base T2 webs either. They would be hilariously OP.


This is why we can't have nice things. Like spider drones.
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
#173 - 2012-03-28 21:35:29 UTC
If you want to reward transracial crosstraining, simply add a damage bonus to each of Eve's ship skills, against the type of vessel the skill allows you to fly. You can RP it away by saying the familiarity with the vessel you gained by training the skill allows you to pick out critical subsystems and familiar weak spots with your weapons fire, which translates to a 2/4/6/8/10% dmg boost per level against that specific ship type.

That way, folks who trained all four races get 10% bonus damage against every kind of ship! While folks who specialized in one race merely get a bonus toward fighting the ships they know how to fly.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#174 - 2012-03-28 22:14:21 UTC
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
If you want to reward transracial crosstraining, simply add a damage bonus to each of Eve's ship skills, against the type of vessel the skill allows you to fly. You can RP it away by saying the familiarity with the vessel you gained by training the skill allows you to pick out critical subsystems and familiar weak spots with your weapons fire, which translates to a 2/4/6/8/10% dmg boost per level against that specific ship type.

That way, folks who trained all four races get 10% bonus damage against every kind of ship! While folks who specialized in one race merely get a bonus toward fighting the ships they know how to fly.

That's... actually not that bad.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#175 - 2012-03-28 22:15:13 UTC
Why do I always read this as Transcranial crosstraining?

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Azeroth Uluntil
Last Chance for Redemption
FFEW Associates
#176 - 2012-03-28 22:40:01 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
Why do I always read this as Transcranial crosstraining?



Better than how some of the people that I talk to refer to this thread... Transgendered something or other...

Also, the damage bonus based on familiarity isn't a bad idea. Ops ideas are pretty dumb though. Not sure if he understands what he is posting, as most of it looks like it was run through a translator.
Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2012-03-28 23:03:59 UTC

I find the false air of superiority from you as a general insult to the forums here. For an '06 player you should know far better and it is blatantly obvious you are just trying to gain an advantage over new players who haven't cross trained yet or who are focused on the one race.

If you truly believe that you aren't competitive with a vessel, you may wish to examine it's set up. Looking over my hanger in LAWN space I see the following, a Myrm, a Drake, an Archon, a Slicer, Geddon, Apoc, Abaddon and finally a Curse. You claim that because for example; I can only fly one type of recon I feel less competitive. Well not really, I can only take out anyone of those vessels and in reality, the only way I may not be competitive is if I lost it and had to get it back from the market here that is stocked with mostly Caldari vessels and Modules.

When I undock, I've chosen my vessel and know it's strengths and weakness's. For example I know taking my drake to kill a frigate gang is probably not going to end well as I can barely damage them. Taking my Myrm may be slightly better due to drone bonus's, but in reality it boils down to the fact I took a battlecruiser against frigates.

From an Recon perspective, I can neut the ever living **** out of anything and slowly bring it down, doesn't change the fact that if I bump into a caldari ship I'm probably dead as missiles can't be td'ed and it's probably passive tanked. Do I feel that if I had been able to fly a lachesis or huggin it would be any different? Maybe, but then again it would dictate if I had engaged or not.

For an '06 player, you seem to not realise that most of this game is not won by the ship you're flying, it's down to two things. Planning your attack and luck that the basis of your plan doesn't go bat **** insane the instant you open fire. Your ship choice matters when you undock. After that you fly the ship as it's meant to and be smart with your flying. The fact I can fly 4 different versions of it means absolutely 0. Therefore, your idea is ridiculous as now several players have stated and will only be to the detriment of new players. Flying a ship is it's own reward, it opens up different play styles. Winning at EVE is down to your skill at knowing how to fly what you are flying, not your skill points. I suggest you put this to practice in a rifter with less then 5mil sp. Red vs Blue would be an ideal place to learn.

Until then, I think you should get a bit more reading comprehension and realise that you aren't the god of eve and that this will not be implemented. Pirate vessels are the closest you'll get and they are simply a mix of playstyles that reward cross training. After all, my poor high sec rattlesnake qualifies me to know nothing clearly about what you are talking about.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#178 - 2012-03-28 23:09:04 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
If you want to reward transracial crosstraining, simply add a damage bonus to each of Eve's ship skills, against the type of vessel the skill allows you to fly. You can RP it away by saying the familiarity with the vessel you gained by training the skill allows you to pick out critical subsystems and familiar weak spots with your weapons fire, which translates to a 2/4/6/8/10% dmg boost per level against that specific ship type.

That way, folks who trained all four races get 10% bonus damage against every kind of ship! While folks who specialized in one race merely get a bonus toward fighting the ships they know how to fly.

That's... actually not that bad.


I dunno... I'm finding a 10% damage boost hard to swallow personally. I feel like there's some way to game the system with regards to "weak" ships vs FOTM, but you'd ultimately be making a gamble that nobody knows how to fly what you're flying. It might even be true if you're a BOBS pilot or HIC pilot or something.

At any rate, I believe any scheme like this should work off of an improved certificate system instead of just the ship skills - then we could see people actually being able to fly a Rupture with reasonable skills (T2 guns, T2 drones, T2 tank, etc) before getting a massive damage boost against it.

I'm -1 because I don't need more advantages because of my SP.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Argaral
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2012-03-28 23:14:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Argaral
Liang Nuren wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
If you want to reward transracial crosstraining, simply add a damage bonus to each of Eve's ship skills, against the type of vessel the skill allows you to fly. You can RP it away by saying the familiarity with the vessel you gained by training the skill allows you to pick out critical subsystems and familiar weak spots with your weapons fire, which translates to a 2/4/6/8/10% dmg boost per level against that specific ship type.

That way, folks who trained all four races get 10% bonus damage against every kind of ship! While folks who specialized in one race merely get a bonus toward fighting the ships they know how to fly.

That's... actually not that bad.


I dunno... I'm finding a 10% damage boost hard to swallow personally. I feel like there's some way to game the system with regards to "weak" ships vs FOTM, but you'd ultimately be making a gamble that nobody knows how to fly what you're flying. It might even be true if you're a BOBS pilot or HIC pilot or something.

At any rate, I believe any scheme like this should work off of an improved certificate system instead of just the ship skills - then we could see people actually being able to fly a Rupture with reasonable skills (T2 guns, T2 drones, T2 tank, etc) before getting a massive damage boost against it.

I'm -1 because I don't need more advantages because of my SP.

-Liang


What's being suggested is similar to set bonus's from WoW and Star Trek online. The problem with that is again, it's an unfair advantage for no real purpose. People should get into new ships because it's what they want to enjoy and they have a different varied play style. Not because its bonus is amazing, we have enough that already.
Joyelle
SludgeSlingers
#180 - 2012-03-28 23:18:39 UTC
Training the spaceship command skills for all races gives you a fair amount of flexibility which means you aren't limited to a specific role or play style. This is more than enough to warrant training said skills.