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Transracial crosstraining. Buffed rewards pls.

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Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#21 - 2012-03-16 09:42:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Pheusia
Tippia wrote:
No. More versatility and better nerf-proofing is reward enough in itself.


Cross training already beats out specialisation, especially in the small/medium ship categories where you have the massive efficiency of Interceptor, EAF, Covops, Interdictor, HIC, HAC, Recon and Command skills applying to 4-8 ships each instead of 1-2.

(I'd add "Battlecruiser" as well, but that won't be true for much longer - it has historically been a very compelling argument, and in fact it's more important than ever to have BC 5 these days.)
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#22 - 2012-03-16 09:44:17 UTC
In fact I'll go so far as to say that any serious PvP pilot should at minimum cross train to at least 1 more race to at least the Cruiser V / T2 medium weapon level. The benefits are simply too large to ignore.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#23 - 2012-03-16 09:48:16 UTC
Halete wrote:
Crellion wrote:
Halete wrote:
Maybe I can petition for Mining skills to make my Minmatar guns stronger, too. Since essentially what you're saying is that training in multiple areas should be an absolute global buff even when you're not using skills relevant to what you're flying.



This is real progress we are making now. Yes this is exactly what I mean, not for mining skills applying to guns of course, I do hope that was merely sarcasm. Instead with gun skills in general having a smaller effect to other races guns and ship skills in general having a smaller effect in other races ships. I am looking at something as small as a 3% overall usefulness increase if need be.

Beggars can't be choosers and you got to start somewhere.


No, we're not making progress. No, it wasn't sarcasm. If you want to train [random skills] and get a bonus to your other skills, I want to train [random skills] and get a bonus, too.

Basically, your complaint seems to boil down to "a Titan pilot with a dedicated skill plan is much more efficient in SP than a Titan pilot who trains for literally years of skills that DON'T APPLY to his Titan". Well, no ****?


I do not understand the constant need to try and paraphrase and put words in my mouth. I do not want a Titan pilot to get a buff form irrelevant skills. I agree that miners and projectiles are irrelevant.

I DO want a pilot who just trained up Ammar cruiser 5 to be able to say: In the next 2 months I can either (a) get all other races cruiser skill to 5 and this will give me a buff on how I fly my Omen / Maller / Arby or (b) I will keep my Omen as is ignore the small buff on it from taining other races cruiser skill and instead use the next two months to train for Ammar BS 5. Both options valid and please let ME choose CCP.

Why is that so hard for you to understand. Why do you find it confusing that one may consider hybrids and projectiles "related" skills as opposed to projectiles and miners?

I am ok with whatever input you wish to contribute but please do not try to change what I am saying.

Finally if the reference to mining lasers and rojectiles was not sarcasm ... oh dear...
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#24 - 2012-03-16 09:51:33 UTC
Pheusia wrote:
In fact I'll go so far as to say that any serious PvP pilot should at minimum cross train to at least 1 more race to at least the Cruiser V / T2 medium weapon level. The benefits are simply too large to ignore.


I agree I have done the exact same myself as I said above. I think there should be an incentive to go all the way to 4. Currently there is not. I think that is an oversight.
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#25 - 2012-03-16 09:56:23 UTC
What are you talking about? Getting access to 5 new T2 cruisers at level 5 is an incredible incentive to train another Cruiser 5.

Plus the ships you say you want already exist in the form of Pirate faction ships.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#26 - 2012-03-16 10:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Crellion
Pheusia wrote:
What are you talking about? Getting access to 5 new T2 cruisers at level 5 is an incredible incentive to train another Cruiser 5.

Plus the ships you say you want already exist in the form of Pirate faction ships.


Please read the previous answers as to why factions ships are not an answer here.

Regarding what you say here I ask you to answer this:

You can fly all cruiser sized vessels of two races. You are considering what to do next. You can train BS5 for one race or you can train cruiser 5 for another 2 races (or thereabouts). You think that these two incentives are equal?

EDIT Not for Pheusia but in general. I dont mind for people to say yes I see what you are saying but I dont like the idea. First however I want to make sure that we all open our eyes and look at the true issue. Then I ll accept disagreement and bugger off.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-03-16 10:04:01 UTC
Oh dear is correct.

I use the mining example because it doesn't and should not effect non-mining traits.

Just like Spaceship Command skills do not and should not effect ships outside of their racial or multi-racial ships. And even then you have a bunch of SC skills that apply to ship classes of ALL races.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#28 - 2012-03-16 10:07:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
I orginally wasn't going to post... but then I saw this gem...

Crellion wrote:
1. Training one and only race leads to caps suprcaps and their advanteges quicker. Crosstraining offers no advantage. It should offer a competitive advantage (other than alleviating the fear of the Nerfbat. Here I ll even list your arguments for you to move things along).


What are you smoking and can I have some? Crosstraining different racial ship lines opens up numerous advantages in an innumerable amount of situations by giving you a wide selection of ships, mods, and weapons to chose from (see: "tactical flexibility").

Do you need to quickly gank someone and fly away? Minmitar and Gallente gunboats are good for this.
Do you need to dish out damage over a variety of ranges while soaking up damage (i.e. fleet combat)? Amarr laserboats are what you need.
Do you want to be a force multiplier that gives your guys an advantage against numbers? Caldari ECM boats will do the trick better than anything else.


Now... moving on to the rest of the post...

Crellion wrote:
2. Why train and train only to fly more expensive vessels? There also has to be a progression where more training brings more ISK effective hulls.


One of the base principles in EVE is that every advantage you gain comes at exponentially increased cost (and/or risk). This is what keeps "everyone" from strictly flying T2 and T3 ships (i.e. "better" ships) and keeps T1 ships more or less viable after about 10 years of the game being in existence.

A good example would of this would be the Vexor vs. the Ishtar

The Vexor, when fully fitted (1600 plate fit of course), costs ~40 million. It can launch 3 heavy drones, has ~35k EHP, and deals ~400 DPS.
The Ishtar, when fully fitted (let's use the 1600 plate, dual-prop fit for consistency's sake), costs close to 200 mil. It can launch 5 heavy drones, has ~50k EHP, and deals ~550 DPS.

Stat-wise the Vexor has a clear advantage over the Ishtar in terms of ISK to power ratio. However, what you can't see is that the Ishtar has WAY more flexibility in terms of how you can fit it without losing out on it's specialty.
What flexibility you ask?
Whereas the Vexor is almost strictly limited to armor tanking the Ishtar is not. You can train to use shields and fit your Ishtar to utilize kiting tactics in a way the Vexor cannot even dream of (well... not technically true... you CAN shield tank a Vexor and fit it for kiting... but if a stiff enough wind hits you, the Vexor is toast).

tl;dr... what you are paying for, in essence, is greater tactical flexibility along with higher damage potential with the Ishtar over the Vexor. However, if you feel that the situation is too risky and/or you feel that the "tactical edge" that the Ishtar provides is not worth it... the Vexor is a good "close enough" ship to bring out.


I should also note that in the past I have said "cost is not a limiting factor for anything"... but your post has enlightened me to believe that this is not always the case.

So thus I will modify my statement to say: "Cost is not always a limiting factor for everything."


Crellion wrote:
Please try to see the big picture:


I think it's the other way around. What your are proposing effective mandates that people train to use these ships as they possess a very high advantage to cost ratio against "lowly T1 ships."

How did you Veterans start?
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-03-16 10:12:35 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Pure gold.


Thank-you for this.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#30 - 2012-03-16 10:14:50 UTC
I see what you mean, and I don't like it. Others have already pointed out why this is a bad idea.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#31 - 2012-03-16 10:17:26 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
I orginally wasn't going to post... but then I saw this gem...

Crellion wrote:
1. Training one and only race leads to caps suprcaps and their advanteges quicker. Crosstraining offers no advantage. It should offer a competitive advantage (other than alleviating the fear of the Nerfbat. Here I ll even list your arguments for you to move things along).


What are you smoking and can I have some? Crosstraining different racial ship lines opens up numerous advantages in an innumerable amount of situations by giving you a wide selection of ships, mods, and weapons to chose from (see: "tactical flexibility").

Do you need to quickly gank someone and fly away? Minmitar and Gallente gunboats are good for this.
Do you need to dish out damage over a variety of ranges while soaking up damage (i.e. fleet combat)? Amarr laserboats are what you need.
Do you want to be a force multiplier that gives your guys an advantage against numbers? Caldari ECM boats will do the trick better than anything else.

I DISAGREE PAST 2nd RACE MINIMAL ADANTAGE SEE POSTS ABOVE FOR AMMAR DRONES AND MISSILES AND OTHER INTERESTING THINGS


Now... moving on to the rest of the post...

Crellion wrote:
2. Why train and train only to fly more expensive vessels? There also has to be a progression where more training brings more ISK effective hulls.


One of the base principles in EVE is that every advantage you gain comes at exponentially increased cost (and/or risk). This is what keeps "everyone" from strictly flying T2 and T3 ships (i.e. "better" ships) and keeps T1 ships more or less viable after about 10 years of the game being in existence. YES DUDE THATS THE POINT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BASIC PRINCIPLE I THINK THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT. YOU THINK CCP IS INFALLIBLE?

A good example would of this would be the Vexor vs. the Ishtar

The Vexor, when fully fitted (1600 plate fit of course), costs ~40 million. It can launch 3 heavy drones, has ~35k EHP, and deals ~400 DPS.
The Ishtar, when fully fitted (let's use the 1600 plate, dual-prop fit for consistency's sake), costs close to 200 mil. It can launch 5 heavy drones, has ~50k EHP, and deals ~550 DPS.

Stat-wise the Vexor has a clear advantage over the Ishtar in terms of ISK to power ratio. However, why you can't see is that the Ishtar has WAY more flexibility in terms of how you can fit it without losing out on it's specialty.
What flexibility you ask?
Whereas the Vexor is almost strictly limited to armor tanking the Ishtar is not. You can train to use shields and fit your Ishtar to utilize kiting tactics in a way the Vexor cannot even dream of (well... not technically true... you CAN shield tank a Vexor and fit it for kiting... but if a stiff enough wind hits you, the Vexor is toast).

tl;dr... what you are paying for, in essence, is greater tactical flexibility along with higher damage potential with the Ishtar over the Vexor.


I should also note that in the past I have said "cost is not a limiting factor for anything"... but your post has enlightened me to believe that this is not always the case.

So thus I will modify my statement to say: "Cost is not always a limiting factor for everything."


Crellion wrote:
Please try to see the big picture:


I think it's the other way around. What your are proposing effective mandates that people train to use these ships as they possess a very high advantage to cost ratio against "lowly T1 ships."
They will certainly be a 2% better option than t1 ships and cheaper than tech II so many people might choose to use them if they take the huge trouble of training for them. Does this detract from the game? It simply gives an incentive to expand training to other directions that is missing today.



My answers inserted. Regrettably I am not smoking anything Ugh
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-03-16 10:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Halete
Crellion wrote:


My answers inserted. Regrettably I am not smoking anything Ugh



Gallente, right? I blame the Quafe.

Actually, edit to that: I just took the time to work my way through that formatting. You have a problem with the basic pricing principle of T1, T2, T3, etc.

Going off of this, and your original post, you basically want pilots with 'years of dedicated SP training' to get the top end ships at T1 pricing.

Just... Fabulous. Now I can rest easy tonight knowing with absolute certainty that you have no idea what's toxic to this game.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#33 - 2012-03-16 10:21:06 UTC
Pookoko wrote:
I see what you mean, and I don't like it. Others have already pointed out why this is a bad idea.


These others when giving reason have demonstrated in their replies that they have misaprehensions which caused me to doubt the reaosns why they are negative. You offer no reasons and you say you understand so I count you as the first valid vote in here and a negative one at that Cry

Thank you for your vote.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#34 - 2012-03-16 10:22:16 UTC
Halete wrote:
Crellion wrote:


My answers inserted. Regrettably I am not smoking anything Ugh



Gallente, right? I blame the Quafe.


v0v could be Roll
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#35 - 2012-03-16 10:24:21 UTC
Crellion wrote:
Pheusia wrote:
What are you talking about? Getting access to 5 new T2 cruisers at level 5 is an incredible incentive to train another Cruiser 5.

Plus the ships you say you want already exist in the form of Pirate faction ships.


Please read the previous answers as to why factions ships are not an answer here.

Regarding what you say here I ask you to answer this:

You can fly all cruiser sized vessels of two races. You are considering what to do next. You can train BS5 for one race or you can train cruiser 5 for another 2 races (or thereabouts). You think that these two incentives are equal?

EDIT Not for Pheusia but in general. I dont mind for people to say yes I see what you are saying but I dont like the idea. First however I want to make sure that we all open our eyes and look at the true issue. Then I ll accept disagreement and bugger off.


I don't think the incentives are equal; it's way more advantageous to train the Cruiser 5s. (This is because the T2 BS are very limited for PvP, and there's not much you can really do with a BS 5 that you can't with BS 4)

To me it seems that you are stuck in a "bigger = better" mindset. And also that you want to break one of the fundamental tenets of EVE, which is that skills are capped. At the moment if John Q McNoob wants to train up Gallente Frigate 5, Interceptor 5 and T2 Light Blasters and fly a Taranis, he'll be as good as anyone else with those skills. Under your scheme, he'll have to train up the other 3 Frigate & 2 Small Turret skills as well. At a stroke you're almost tripling the hill that new players have to climb in order to reach skill equality.

Given the already strong advantages of cross training, I'd have to oppose your idea on this basis alone.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#36 - 2012-03-16 10:27:49 UTC
Quote:
Quote:
One of the base principles in EVE is that every advantage you gain comes at exponentially increased cost (and/or risk). This is what keeps "everyone" from strictly flying T2 and T3 ships (i.e. "better" ships) and keeps T1 ships more or less viable after about 10 years of the game being in existence.


YES DUDE THATS THE POINT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BASIC PRINCIPLE I THINK THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT. YOU THINK CCP IS INFALLIBLE?


I do not. But you haven't really made your case on why this is a "bad" thing.
Why shouldn't people who want an extra 15 to 25% advantage over T1 ships pay through the nose to buy/lose it?

Honestly... what you are proposing is called "power creep" and it can only end in very bad things down the road.

How did you Veterans start?
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#37 - 2012-03-16 10:29:44 UTC
First off-cross training is its own reward. Its hard to see at the T1 level but as soon as you get in to T2's having more ships to choose from multiples your ability's substantially.


Second- Your ships benefit from 5 skills, this puts the ships tech level squarely at T3(or if you will 2.999999) so about the T1 price.......no


Third- Your idea would be better as a hull series that uses any ship skill.(ex-the frigate use your caldari frigate 3 over your gallente frigate 2)


Forth- "Omni" ships will only really work out as non-combat ships. other wise they will have to belong to a race on the grounds of weapon system: a ship that use all skills or any skill will still be Amarrian if it's weapon platform is lasers, also giving a "turret" bonus that apples to all would exclude pilots that use missiles or drones.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#38 - 2012-03-16 10:44:48 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
One of the base principles in EVE is that every advantage you gain comes at exponentially increased cost (and/or risk). This is what keeps "everyone" from strictly flying T2 and T3 ships (i.e. "better" ships) and keeps T1 ships more or less viable after about 10 years of the game being in existence.


YES DUDE THATS THE POINT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BASIC PRINCIPLE I THINK THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT. YOU THINK CCP IS INFALLIBLE?


I do not. But you haven't really made your case on why this is a "bad" thing.
Why shouldn't people who want an extra 15 to 25% advantage over T1 ships pay through the nose to buy/lose it?

Honestly... what you are proposing is called "power creep" and it can only end in very bad things down the road.


Because the whole of EvE is based on paying more as the only way to get better vessels. I think this si just to make us run the treadmill for CCP electricity. It might be unavoidable but the occasional respite would be nice.

What I am proposing is not a tech II ship. No increas ein slots, resists, base stats, none of that. But a vessel that requires to have mastered all races to fly it, is decidedly tech I (in prices and mindset) but better than the exisitng tech I of its class. Somewhere close to tech II but not quite there would be nice. Freely available to all dirt cheap however. Nothing like faction ships.

I think this would be a welcome change from always having to pay more to get more. Cut down the grinding a bit too. Shock horror...
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-03-16 10:53:34 UTC
Crellion wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
One of the base principles in EVE is that every advantage you gain comes at exponentially increased cost (and/or risk). This is what keeps "everyone" from strictly flying T2 and T3 ships (i.e. "better" ships) and keeps T1 ships more or less viable after about 10 years of the game being in existence.


YES DUDE THATS THE POINT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS BASIC PRINCIPLE I THINK THEY SHOULD CHANGE IT. YOU THINK CCP IS INFALLIBLE?


I do not. But you haven't really made your case on why this is a "bad" thing.
Why shouldn't people who want an extra 15 to 25% advantage over T1 ships pay through the nose to buy/lose it?

Honestly... what you are proposing is called "power creep" and it can only end in very bad things down the road.


Because the whole of EvE is based on paying more as the only way to get better vessels. I think this si just to make us run the treadmill for CCP electricity. It might be unavoidable but the occasional respite would be nice.

What I am proposing is not a tech II ship. No increas ein slots, resists, base stats, none of that. But a vessel that requires to have mastered all races to fly it, is decidedly tech I (in prices and mindset) but better than the exisitng tech I of its class. Somewhere close to tech II but not quite there would be nice. Freely available to all dirt cheap however. Nothing like faction ships.

I think this would be a welcome change from always having to pay more to get more. Cut down the grinding a bit too. Shock horror...






HTFU. ISK cost is the crux that balances ships of all sizes, tiers and pilot ages.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#40 - 2012-03-16 10:55:51 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
First off-cross training is its own reward. Its hard to see at the T1 level but as soon as you get in to T2's having more ships to choose from multiples your ability's substantially.


Second- Your ships benefit from 5 skills, this puts the ships tech level squarely at T3(or if you will 2.999999) so about the T1 price.......no


Third- Your idea would be better as a hull series that uses any ship skill.(ex-the frigate use your caldari frigate 3 over your gallente frigate 2)


Forth- "Omni" ships will only really work out as non-combat ships. other wise they will have to belong to a race on the grounds of weapon system: a ship that use all skills or any skill will still be Amarrian if it's weapon platform is lasers, also giving a "turret" bonus that apples to all would exclude pilots that use missiles or drones.


They benefit from 5 skills but not fully so as to make them better than T2 (or as you suggest T3). It could be scaled to be ... T1.5 if you like (or closer to T1.9 as I would like). Definately NOT T2+.

I do not see them as non combat vessels. Tthe bonuses (reduced as they would be oc) would apply to "turrets" and "missiles" if need be.