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Incoming titan adjustments

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FeLiZk
Loot Industries
#1941 - 2012-03-14 21:54:20 UTC
Khadmos wrote:
FeLiZk wrote:
Shadoo, I could not agree more I am raging because of the way this is being done.


You agree that titans need to be nerfed MORE? I'm pretty sure that goes against everything you've said so far.


Want my ship to have a role, that's not a once in every 2 months role. Kinda stuck in a titan.
Kyle Myr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1942 - 2012-03-14 21:54:57 UTC
Shadoo wrote:
Oh lord, why has this thread degenerated into some sort of :BLOOOOOOBS: discussion...

No ship in eve should stop a large fleet on its tracks, get over it and stop being ********. No ship in a game should be even designed as such because all it would do is people who like to push boundaries to simply gather as many of them as possible into an unstopable force.

That's not good for the game. Titans are overpowered when used in large numbers because they scale exponentially better than any other ship in this game.

Yes, they cost a lot of isk and require a lot of SP -- but that's not an excuse for them to be massively overpowered when used in numbers.

Now -- I *do* believe that something fundemental needs to be done in this game to combat the ever escalating numbers used in combat and that applies to ANY type of ship. I sincerely believe the time of the sandbox has come to an end in some respects, and we not only need a diminishing returns system for damage applied and we need to have shield/armor transfered from logistics ships applied with similar diminishing returns.

But people... A thread about Titans is not the place to have this discussion.

I once swore (3.5years ago or so, someone eve-search the post) that I would ABUSE the AOE DD to its greatest extend until it got changed. And it did. I'm fairly sure I said ~8 months ago on another site I'd do the same with tracking titans, and I believe that we have.

I'm happy therefore the ship is getting attention, but I am very disapointed we STILL lack the FINAL solution to bring this "end game" ship to a role which is UNIQUE, USEFUL for the alliance/corp/gang as a whole and WORTHY of investing a lot of money, time and effort for getting into.

Reducing tracking/increasing locking will solve nothing. Only a change out of the combat role completely will do this. It''s NOT ENOUGH to tweak it.

Hopefully CCP will look at the 100+ pages of discussion generated and realize this IS a ship which is important, and it IS important to bring it to a proper, well thoughtout change in role with the effort and resources devoded to it which match those of the pilors who aspire to fly them.


While I don't have great ideas of what sort of role Titans should play, this is a well reasoned post. As long as every player on the field matters, and people are always able to join in to a fleet, I think your ideas are completely reasonable.
Sirhan Blixt
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1943 - 2012-03-14 21:55:41 UTC
Shadoo wrote:
Oh lord, why has this thread degenerated into some sort of :BLOOOOOOBS: discussion...

(content snipped)

At risk of posting "this, totally this," this is really the best way to bookend this thread. It encapsulates just about everything that sane, knowledgeable minds have been thinking on the topic.

Too bad none of you feckless douchebag wheezeposters, rearing up on your urine-soaked hind legs and howling about Goon conspiracies and "blobbing" and The Invincible 1600, could manage a tenth of this.

Can we end this thread now?
GallowsCalibrator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1944 - 2012-03-14 21:56:57 UTC
Kerensky White wrote:
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Oh god the tears in this thread, so delicious. (Even though a 50% nerf isn't really all that serious and in TiDi with sensible targeting order, with *GASP* communication and/or fitting appropriately even the target delay can be worked around; but Raiden. gonna keep up the crying.)

Also, theorycraft time, Titans working as actual stations would give them a pretty good end-game role and monstrous combat asset; Ability to redock and spit out ships forever, with clones waking up at the titan? (Which is how the clone vat bay system probably should have worked but :CCP:). Committing a Titan to a front-line instantly escalates a battle. (Please ignore this terrible theorycraft and overall bad post)


This is kinda what I would like to see titans do. Coupled with a staging pos you can get a decent beachhead into enemy territory.


Yeah. Imagine when you drop them into different systems and watch people **** A BRICK over which Titan is going to be the actual attack? Which one do I drop dreads one?

... Strategy? IN MY EVE?

(Probably some hilarious logistical abuses in the waiting though jumping a Titan full of Industrials in.)
Kyle Myr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1945 - 2012-03-14 21:59:36 UTC
FeLiZk wrote:
Khadmos wrote:
FeLiZk wrote:
Shadoo, I could not agree more I am raging because of the way this is being done.


You agree that titans need to be nerfed MORE? I'm pretty sure that goes against everything you've said so far.


Want my ship to have a role, that's not a once in every 2 months role. Kinda stuck in a titan.


I completely understand this point of view - I, too, want my ship to have a role in fleets. That's why I think Titan tracking is a problem, as it can be used to kill any fleet in the game regardless of numbers and composition, barring a larger number of Titans.

As for being stuck in a space coffin, I'd suggest purchasing a holding alt. A character, minimally skilled to be able to sit in a Titan, should run you much less than the hull you're currently stuck in. Once you're out of the ship, you'll have (presumably) a character great at flying a whole range of this game's incredibly diverse and fun capital and sub capital ships.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1946 - 2012-03-14 22:02:19 UTC
Kerensky White wrote:
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Oh god the tears in this thread, so delicious. (Even though a 50% nerf isn't really all that serious and in TiDi with sensible targeting order, with *GASP* communication and/or fitting appropriately even the target delay can be worked around; but Raiden. gonna keep up the crying.)

Also, theorycraft time, Titans working as actual stations would give them a pretty good end-game role and monstrous combat asset; Ability to redock and spit out ships forever, with clones waking up at the titan? (Which is how the clone vat bay system probably should have worked but :CCP:). Committing a Titan to a front-line instantly escalates a battle. (Please ignore this terrible theorycraft and overall bad post)


This is kinda what I would like to see titans do. Coupled with a staging pos you can get a decent beachhead into enemy territory.


how about a titan can turn an outpost into a BATTLEOUTPOST!!!! when it latches on to an outpost (its version of docking one titan per outpost) the ship requires fuel to stay "docked" and acts as a battlestation for the outpost... once its there it takes like 24 hours to un-latch its self...

this would go great with the whole destructable outposts speil thats going on...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#1947 - 2012-03-14 22:05:52 UTC
Count Spectacula wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Is CCP willing to reimburse titan owners for years of SP and ISK lost, or will just let them quit game in frustration? I know it is not that many accounts but I don't think CCP at this moment can afford to lose any.


Why should they reimburse anything? The ship is still there, the skills are still useful, you can still target and shoot things. no one is stopping you from flying your titan. I didnt get heavy drone skills back when they removed them from myrmadons, I didnt get cruise missile skills back when they removed them from stealth bombers. I didnt get drone skills or isk for drones back when they removed them from supercarriers...

On another note, they just banned, what was it 2000 accounts for botting? how do you think 800 or so titan accounts would make a difference? Maybe if titan pilots had been more responsible with their power, they would still be able to hit the tiny things they shoot at.


What is this nonsense about titan pilots abusing their power? You don’t seem entirely rational about it, especially as you compare titan players with botters. That seems rather warped perception of what constitutes legitimate play and what is an abuse. What?

Anyhow I think any of the changes you mentioned warranted reassignment of SP, and the fact CCP did not allow such reassignment is a mistake on their side. This mistake is even bigger in this case as titans represent much bigger investment in skill time and ISK, and with this nerf have their general utility is reduced to the extent they no longer even remotely justify cost and effort required to get them.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
FeLiZk
Loot Industries
#1948 - 2012-03-14 22:06:25 UTC
Kyle Myr wrote:
FeLiZk wrote:
Khadmos wrote:
FeLiZk wrote:
Shadoo, I could not agree more I am raging because of the way this is being done.


You agree that titans need to be nerfed MORE? I'm pretty sure that goes against everything you've said so far.


Want my ship to have a role, that's not a once in every 2 months role. Kinda stuck in a titan.


I completely understand this point of view - I, too, want my ship to have a role in fleets. That's why I think Titan tracking is a problem, as it can be used to kill any fleet in the game regardless of numbers and composition, barring a larger number of Titans.

As for being stuck in a space coffin, I'd suggest purchasing a holding alt. A character, minimally skilled to be able to sit in a Titan, should run you much less than the hull you're currently stuck in. Once you're out of the ship, you'll have (presumably) a character great at flying a whole range of this game's incredibly diverse and fun capital and sub capital ships.


you really thing this is a good solution. make money buy another char, park titan. you really that selfish that you can't even agree on the fact that they should be allowed to dock, and if the new role comes that we could chose not to fly them if we don't like it and get our skills back.
Zen Sarum
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1949 - 2012-03-14 22:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zen Sarum
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Adding a "minimum sig radius" attribute to turrets, below which damage would fall off regardless of tracking

Too big a change and more technical work than we actually needed to solve the problem.


All turrets already have sig resolution attribute. This is already used in the damage calculation, you just need to double it for XL weapons.


This doesn't scale the damage, it scales the hit chance. Part of the problem we're having is that titans aren't hitting subcaps all that often, but when they do hit they do full anti-capital damage and frequently one-hit things as a result.


This is true, blapping can occur with any sized ship.. as a friend in a rifter once learned with neutron blaster cannons fitted to my ship.

Missiles are scaled pretty well, guns are not. What is needed is a simple lower cap on the sig radius of gun vs target:

Looking at sig radius effects on guns today:
  • If the sig radius of the gun is 1000m (Giga pulse laser)
  • Shooting at a battlecruiser (<300m) or a battleship (<500m) you are still screwed
  • If the titan / dread can track the battleship it can do say 1/2 damage no problem every hit

    • Even if it is out-tracking the dread with speed even a glanced shot can occur and this may be sufficient to blap the ship to its doom.

    Then you turn on a MWD +500% (x5) you are fundimently screwed unless your sig is less then the magic 200. Even then you still have a chance of being blapped. This doesn't even include painter bonus's which any self respecting titan pilot has on his support fleet / supercarriers

    What is the sig radius of a dread? ~3.10 km carrier ~ 3km

    So..

    1. Why can the anti cap gun hit something 3 times smaller then its main prey? XL guns should be 3000m.
    2. If the sig radius of the gun is the same or less then the sig radius of the ship it is supposed to kill it could do100% damage if it hits
    3. If a ship targeted is a half of the size of the sig radius of a weapon any damage should be heavily scaled (25%)
    4. If a ship targeted is a third the size of the gun, damage = 0

    so:
  • MWD battleship 2500m yea you are still gonna die
  • MWD battlecruiser 1500m I hope you like 25% damage from those titan guns (die in a fire)
  • MWD cruiser 750m .. enjoy
  • AB battleship 500m .. enjoy
    • etc

    Seems almost fair to me.. on its own..

    5. Target painters give 30% bonus to sig outside of other bonus's which means you just put one on each of your 60 titans... not good for the above logic.. say you pile these up the best you could achieve is what +67% (I may be wrong on stacking /faction blah nerd blah)?

    6. So there is an issue with the scaling of sigs of smaller ships vs medium vs large sub caps vs supers.. increase the sigs of capitals and capital weapons (not including fighters) to were they are 2x larger then the minimum cap radius sig today (so around 6000m) suddenly:

  • MWD battleship 2500m I hope you like >25% damage from those titan guns (die in a fire)
  • MWD battlecruiser 1500m LOL .. oh crap supers with target painters...
  • MWD cruiser 750m LOL
  • AB battleship 500m LOL
    • etc

    7. The only other thing you can do (perhaps in parallel) is scale tracking so if a ship is travelling faster then the gun tracking it, it cannot be hit - ever and.. makes logical sense? How can you gain a higher radian/s over something that at a tangent and distance completes more radians/s. This can be countered by webs and scram obviously.

    In all yea will take some work to balance.. but it is just simple maths and logic?

    You knew about this being broken over a year ago so what maths logic and testing has been done in this time? Seriously?
    Sethur Blackcoat
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #1950 - 2012-03-14 22:10:45 UTC
    Nobody ever got skills or money back for not liking changes made to a ship they flew. Didn't happen with the supercarrier change either, before you go all BUT THEY COULD DOCK on me.
    GallowsCalibrator
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #1951 - 2012-03-14 22:11:30 UTC
    MeBiatch wrote:


    how about a titan can turn an outpost into a BATTLEOUTPOST!!!! when it latches on to an outpost (its version of docking one titan per outpost) the ship requires fuel to stay "docked" and acts as a battlestation for the outpost... once its there it takes like 24 hours to un-latch its self...

    this would go great with the whole destructable outposts speil thats going on...


    This'd leave this hypothetical station-Titan as a purely defensive measure. There needs to be some tangible benefit to bringing one on the offensive if this was a route to take a Titan down.

    Sofia Wolf wrote:
    and with this nerf have their general utility is reduced to the extent they no longer even remotely justify cost and effort required to get them.


    The Jump Bridge is the single best module in EVE. That ALONE is worth the price tag and delay to train a Titan. It is the ultimate force projection, pure and simple - but you need to have other people with you to take advantage of it!
    Kyle Myr
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1952 - 2012-03-14 22:13:39 UTC
    FeLiZk wrote:
    Kyle Myr wrote:
    FeLiZk wrote:
    Khadmos wrote:
    FeLiZk wrote:
    Shadoo, I could not agree more I am raging because of the way this is being done.


    You agree that titans need to be nerfed MORE? I'm pretty sure that goes against everything you've said so far.


    Want my ship to have a role, that's not a once in every 2 months role. Kinda stuck in a titan.


    I completely understand this point of view - I, too, want my ship to have a role in fleets. That's why I think Titan tracking is a problem, as it can be used to kill any fleet in the game regardless of numbers and composition, barring a larger number of Titans.

    As for being stuck in a space coffin, I'd suggest purchasing a holding alt. A character, minimally skilled to be able to sit in a Titan, should run you much less than the hull you're currently stuck in. Once you're out of the ship, you'll have (presumably) a character great at flying a whole range of this game's incredibly diverse and fun capital and sub capital ships.


    you really thing this is a good solution. make money buy another char, park titan. you really that selfish that you can't even agree on the fact that they should be allowed to dock, and if the new role comes that we could chose not to fly them if we don't like it and get our skills back.


    No, I'm suggesting a valid solution present under the current game mechanics. Purchasing a holder alt is less expensive than a well-fit super carrier, last time I checked. Removing the hull and refunding the skills would also be a fine solution, but that sort of drastic change is something CCP seems to be trying to avoid with these small, iterative nerfs.

    I'd like for all hulls to have roles. Hell, I'm a fan of Electronic Attack Frigates myself, which are notably flown less than titans, but their only roll is a microscopic niche within faction warfare, as their performance is largely superseded by t1 cruisers or recons in 0.0. Titans, on the other hand, have a current 'niche' which kills all other hulls in the EVE ecosystem. This isn't healthy, and if there's a period where Titans don't have a defined role while CCP reworks them, that's better than the alternative.
    FeLiZk
    Loot Industries
    #1953 - 2012-03-14 22:13:55 UTC
    They don't want to use afterburners have not seen a fleet with them.
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #1954 - 2012-03-14 22:16:07 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
    GallowsCalibrator wrote:
    MeBiatch wrote:


    how about a titan can turn an outpost into a BATTLEOUTPOST!!!! when it latches on to an outpost (its version of docking one titan per outpost) the ship requires fuel to stay "docked" and acts as a battlestation for the outpost... once its there it takes like 24 hours to un-latch its self...

    this would go great with the whole destructable outposts speil thats going on...


    This'd leave this hypothetical station-Titan as a purely defensive measure. There needs to be some tangible benefit to bringing one on the offensive if this was a route to take a Titan down.

    Sofia Wolf wrote:
    and with this nerf have their general utility is reduced to the extent they no longer even remotely justify cost and effort required to get them.


    The Jump Bridge is the single best module in EVE. That ALONE is worth the price tag and delay to train a Titan. It is the ultimate force projection, pure and simple - but you need to have other people with you to take advantage of it!


    I am saying this ontop of what they do now... but CCP said they are looking at ways to get a titan to dock... so when peeps dont want to do just capital stuff with their characters...

    i think a titan is too big to just dock... but i think its jus the right size to latch on to an outpost and turn it into a battleoutpost Pirate

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Sethur Blackcoat
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #1955 - 2012-03-14 22:16:30 UTC
    Our alphafleet scimitars are AB fit just for one random example straight off the top of my head.

    hth
    Marlona Sky
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1956 - 2012-03-14 22:17:46 UTC
    Dear NCdot, Raiden and PL,

    Please do not use rockets against the CFC. I just unlocked tech 2 rockets and would like to have some fun hunting people in my Vengeance. I have several ideas on how to maximize specific aspects of it, but please don't use rockets. Last thing rockets need is a nerf. X

    Thanks!
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #1957 - 2012-03-14 22:18:02 UTC
    FeLiZk wrote:
    They don't want to use afterburners have not seen a fleet with them.



    i know you have been in a titan since like 07 but there are these things called ahacs...

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Kyle Myr
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1958 - 2012-03-14 22:18:51 UTC
    FeLiZk wrote:
    They don't want to use afterburners have not seen a fleet with them.


    Afterburning logi. Afterburning T3s. Oversized, afterburning t3s. Afterburning assault frigates holding heavy tackle.

    Come on, we were having a good discussion, you can do better than this.
    Alavaria Fera
    GoonWaffe
    #1959 - 2012-03-14 22:22:25 UTC
    Marlona Sky wrote:
    Dear NCdot, Raiden and PL,

    Please do not use rockets against the CFC. I just unlocked tech 2 rockets and would like to have some fun hunting people in my Vengeance. I have several ideas on how to maximize specific aspects of it, but please don't use rockets. Last thing rockets need is a nerf. X

    Can we put rockets on our rifters for a bigger bang?

    Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
    Kerensky White
    K-EDEN
    Winger Aerospace
    #1960 - 2012-03-14 22:23:40 UTC
    I like rocket rifters