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Incoming titan adjustments

First post First post
Author
Barqs
Peanut Factory
Good Sax
#2681 - 2012-03-29 21:17:11 UTC
Saiphas Cain wrote:
CONSTRUCTIVE SUGGESTION

rather than more argument and banter.

If the devs are noting that code rewrites are more of an issue than they're worth you look for the smaller kludge. Currently XL weapons apply to all capitals, yet much like cruisers and battleships, Capitals and Supercapitals are in different classes. Simplest solution I would think is introduce a new class of XXL weapons for Titans specifically, and change the bonuses to those to discourage people from undergunning their titans to blap subcaps ( or if they do undergun they enjoy no bonuses ). It's a bit more work in the art department, yes, but new weapons can have stats that do not effect Dreads use of XL weapons and doesn't require re-coding much of anything in terms of raw mechanics. Worst case if the issue is one of sig radius ( which admittedly ONLY missiles handle properly ) rather than tracking then just make all XXL weapons behave like missiles to the server. ( Wouldn't be hard to make excuses to support it. How fast would shells that large really travel anyway? lasers that big? Well, I seem to remember a certain deaths-starr from a popular movie franchise taking some time to gear up and fire. Not an issue. )



Do you REALLY think that giant battleship guns velocity is lower then an average hand held rifle round? REALLY? Your an idiot, Not to mention a laser travles at LIGHT SPEED for your small brain that is 186,000 miles a second. No gravity no air to casue drag. if anything cannons in space would be MUCH MUCH higher then anything we would be used to.

Barqs
Ken Ishitawa
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2682 - 2012-04-03 11:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ken Ishitawa
I dont think it's Titan guns exclusively that need ballancing. Projectile weapons as a whole need to be revamped. Projectiles need an apparent projectile velocity build into it's calculations. Alas I know this is possibly too difficult for CCP to do and definetly would require more resourse than they are willing to dedicate to it but here goes.

Current example Titan shoots at a frig stationary at 200Km, the frig is dead in one shot.

If the projectiles had an apparent velocity (But not an object in space like missiles) Titan shoots at Frig at 200Km with a projectile with a 10km/s velocity the frig would have 20 seconds to get out of the way which would be easy. The targeted ships ability to evade the shot should be based on it's sig a new attribute for the ship and the evasive manouvering skill.

To make it not too complex to code and more importantly server load you might still need to apply the damage instantly.

Under this system the closer you get to your target the easier you are to hit up untill the point that your transversal velocity makes you untrackable.

You would not need to limit a Titan to locking 3 target or give them stupidly low scan res which to be honest is counter intuative at the moment anyway, dont you think the biggest most technilogicaly powerful ships in the game having the poorest sensors is a little off.

Given that CCP are currently planning a total ship rework which I'm guessing has a fairly large team once it's finished weapons might be a nice thing to go over once they are looking for a new task.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#2683 - 2012-04-03 11:16:45 UTC
Ken Ishitawa
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2684 - 2012-04-03 11:52:28 UTC
EnderCapitalG wrote:
StainLessStealRat wrote:
Also when i burn away from BS in a straight line in my Slicer i allways die, when will you look at BS tracking?


lol

This isn' t the same situation and you know it.



You're right. There are 3 classes of ship between a Frig and a BS but only one between a BS and a Titan so a BS is even more overpowered. Also BS have BS sized Neutes and smart bombs where as capitals dont so they are EVEN more overpowered.



NERF BATTLE SHIPS
Corp 5py
Doomheim
#2685 - 2012-04-03 12:23:19 UTC
Ken Ishitawa wrote:

If the projectiles had an apparent velocity (But not an object in space like missiles) Titan shoots at Frig at 200Km with a projectile with a 10km/s velocity the frig would have 20 seconds to get out of the way which would be easy.


Motion prediction, level V
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#2686 - 2012-04-03 22:55:18 UTC
Ken Ishitawa wrote:
EnderCapitalG wrote:
StainLessStealRat wrote:
Also when i burn away from BS in a straight line in my Slicer i allways die, when will you look at BS tracking?


lol

This isn' t the same situation and you know it.



You're right. There are 3 classes of ship between a Frig and a BS but only one between a BS and a Titan so a BS is even more overpowered. Also BS have BS sized Neutes and smart bombs where as capitals dont so they are EVEN more overpowered.



NERF BATTLE SHIPS

Yeah, as discussed in the other titan nerf thread, CCP is considering a hard cap on turret damage based on sig res of the gun VS base sig rad of the target. For now it would only apply to XL guns, but may be moved down to sub-capital weapons as well when they have time to re-visit the tracking formula properly.
Daniel L'Siata
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#2687 - 2012-04-04 00:28:06 UTC
Removing the ability to refit while targetted, smashing job CCP.

I think it's an utterly fantastic idea to remove the only serious defense vanilla capitals have against being blobbed to death.

In other words - That's an absolutely terrible idea, you just killed the complexity of small gang warfare. Think your changes through instead of making knee-jerk reactions which do far more harm than good in other situations.

How about... I don't know... "Titans can only refit at a Ship Maintenance Array due to their size". There, problem solved, that was hard.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#2688 - 2012-04-04 02:24:54 UTC
NERF THREADNAUGHTS
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2689 - 2012-04-04 16:34:59 UTC
Snot Shot wrote:
Stuff


Dude, you say you are cheering on the underdog? With you on their side, I would hate to have enemies. Twisted

You do nothing to encourage the people that Raiden. + friends would like to recruit as they take on look at their biggest fan in you and wonder why the hell they would even consider looking at them let alone joining them. Me included in that by the way.

So we have **** poasting from you, the 'leet' pvp'ers jumping into Titans anytime there's a fight and why would anyone else want to join something that's to all intents and purposes worse than the CFC and many other alliances in eve?

I think you've trolled for so long now you actually believe the crap that you type.

I am a bit worried about you now though. What are you going to do when Jita burns? Move to Rens? LolLolLol

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2690 - 2012-04-04 16:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Smiling Menace wrote:
Dude, you say you are cheering on the underdog? With you on their side, I would hate to have enemies. Twisted

You do nothing to encourage the people that Raiden. + friends would like to recruit as they take on look at their biggest fan in you and wonder why the hell they would even consider looking at them let alone joining them. Me included in that by the way.

So we have **** poasting from you, the 'leet' pvp'ers jumping into Titans anytime there's a fight and why would anyone else want to join something that's to all intents and purposes worse than the CFC and many other alliances in eve?

I think you've trolled for so long now you actually believe the crap that you type.

I am a bit worried about you now though. What are you going to do when Jita burns? Move to Rens? LolLolLol

Too soon for such jokes...


One thing at least people can be assured of is that they'll always be able to get into the next elite pvp alliance, suckle on some tech moons/whatever isk source and then try to blow up their inferiors with their superior skill and magnificently balanced megaships.

We ourselves have some large boats about, like a big red one that (probably) doesn't go faster, but regardless of all that ... being able to deploy and easily find yourself a swarm of ~bad pvp~ers to shoot with your titan is a definite plus. If you have a spy you can even find out in advance how many hundreds of fools will warp to you at zero for your blapping convenience.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Lord Morpheus
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#2691 - 2012-04-04 17:47:13 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We're not happy with the effectiveness of large groups of titans against subcapital ships, so we're making some adjustments to titans and to XL turrets.

This is a quick, surgical adjustment to solve a specific issue we have identified. It's not a general titan balance pass, and we don't consider titans "done" after this change. Titans will require significant further changes, and probably an overall adjustment in role, before they're in a place where we're really happy with them. This will require a reasonably significant amount of work, which we unfortunately don't have the spare resources for right now. In a similar vein, we're not making more extensive balance changes (or addressing this issue in a more technically complex way) because we're allocating the minimum resources needed to resolve the specific issue (titans performing excessively well against subcaps in certain circumstances) satisfactorily. If you have any further questions about this paragraph, please ask away Smile

For the immediate future and until such time as we have the resources available to do a comprehensive overhaul, we want to ensure that titans perform decently against other capitals, but do not represent a serious threat to subcaps. We want titans to have clear vulnerabilities, and as much as possible to have them acting in support of the main capital/subcap fleet rather than the other way round. We've already prevented doomsdays from being fired at subcaps, and this adjustment should continue that trend.

We have talked to the CSM about this, and we're comfortable going forward with these changes in light of that discussion. I'm not going to put words in their mouths, though.


Specific changes being made:

XL turret tracking halved, siege module tracking penalty removed

This should generally make titan performance against small targets significantly worse, without seriously impacting their effectiveness against larger targets, or negatively impacting dreadnaughts in their common use-case (ie, in siege mode).

Titans reduced to 3 maximum locked targets, and base scan resolution reduced to 5

This should make trying to engage smaller targets very inefficient, due to long lock-times and an inability to queue many targets at once. This reinforces the titan's MO as a slow-acting but hard-hitting platform (in line with the doomsday's huge damage and 10 minute RoF). The scan res number is balanced around multiple Cormack's sensor boosters, on the assumption that money is not a limiting factor for titan pilots, and therefore that people will shell out for officer SBs if that lets them continue do this kind of thing. Our understanding is that this isn't standard practice right now, but we have to balance for expected behavior after the change, and for worst-case scenarios.

Expected release schedule for these changes

These changes should hit TQ some time in April. If there is a sizable release in April then expect them to turn up then; if not then we'll announce deployment dates for these changes closer to the time.




Changes considered and discarded:

(I'm expecting at least three people to not read the word "discarded" and make angry posts about something in this section. C'est la vie.)

Titans can't lock subcaps at all

Guaranteed effective solution, but we considered it too hacky and restrictive.

Adding a "minimum sig radius" attribute to turrets, below which damage would fall off regardless of tracking

Too big a change and more technical work than we actually needed to solve the problem.

Changing the lock time formula

As it is, the lock time formula doesn't really scale in a nice way between battleships and capitals (the kink in the curve always happens around cruisers regardless of the scan res and sig radius), but again we decided we could solve the issue without resorting to this sort of technical work.

Changing XL missiles to match

While in a strictly regimented world we ought in principle to nerf XL missiles and remove the penalties from the siege module for them too, in practice they're not actually a problem due to the way missile damage scales against small targets. Leaving them unchanged also serves to differentiate missiles further from turrets, which might make them more useful on capitals under certain circumstances.





Wow your really killing the greatest ship ingame and planning to turn it to a frig. Pretty soon a frig can kill it. When is this gonna stop? Are you planning to make it even cheaper to build this ship and less costly. Thats what you should concentrate on instead. I understand it can one volley a dread or carrier but consider the COST involved and RISK in building a Titan. Did you put that in the equation. Once you can build it in a station with less minerals then nerf away otherwise dont destroy the Power of this ship.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2692 - 2012-04-04 18:20:48 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
There is a reason why I’ve said for the past 2 years that adjusting tracking will not fix the problem. Just like fixing lock time also does not address the problem at all.

You developers have for years completely ignored your tracking mechanics and how utterly garbage they are. You have also ignored people informing you of why you can’t fix tracking under the current design. So let me drop this knowledge on you for why your first fix to titans has changed so little in what they do that it will have virtually 0 impact on the game after a few months of adaptation:

The current problem is that titans in large numbers can blap the ever living **** out of a fleet with basically no risk simply because they are huge HP buffers that can be repaired by motherships which are also huge HP buffers. Now I could ***** and moan about Capital Remote repairers and their range and their effectiveness, particularly on huge hp and resist stars like supers, but that would go off track of my point, so I’ll avoid the temptation.

So you changed tracking… big whoop. Rather than track around 220 m/s for every 10km of range, an Erebus/Rag now tracks about 110 m/s for every 10km of range. In addition, they have a gun sig size of about double that of a BS. This creates some magical world where a ship further away can be tracked better, but is some how mysteriously the same size as though range dilation has no affect at all on how well you can see that now tiny little dot. In layman’s terms…. This means that if Eve mechanics worked in the real universe, Every star in the whole freaking universe would look approximately the same size as our sun, as would all the planets in size relation to our moon rather than the tiny specs in the sky that they are.
So here’s what happens after your patch to just circumvent the whole problem you just created…. Lock time you say… Tracking speed you say…

Hello MR Proteus, Hello either 5 AEONS with 4 Domi painters or 50 Archons with 4 T2 Painters (and just for luls cause the ship is cheap, why not throw in 2 range extenders for the painters as well). Now that wonderful tengu has an 800-1200 sig and at 60km can be tracked plus has a sig size near the same as the guns do. That Maelstrom has a 1700 + sig… ie bigger than the guns do, and can be tracked at about 12km range…. And oh yeah, you can easily get those 300-400,000 ehp small sig lokis to web down anything closer than those ranges to prevent them from avoiding the tracking problems… not like tech 3’s are rare these days.

Oh but lock time you say… well if the carrier paints before the Titans ever lock…. Oh yeah, Lock a tengu in 30-35 seconds, lock a Maelstrom in 23-30 seconds… that’s so brutal. Oh yeah, and that’s just with ******* Navy tracking computers and sensor boosters, I didn’t even toss in the Meta 13-14 gear.

Gee… in 20 minutes of planning and a slight modification to what my fleet roles are, I’ve just circumvented your entire titan patch plans b/c you thought this was enough to warrant not changing the coding of your formulas so that they make sense.

Good thing there’s nobody in this game who couldn’t ya know, divide their titan pilots up on mumble into 10-15 sub channels, have a few SC’s assigned to each for painting and just perform the exact same way where it’s “paint, blap, blap, boom” rather than the old, “blap, blap, boom”…. That extra step… it will be the death of me. Guess us PL folk, or Raiden folk, or NC. Folk will have a horrible time adapting to this fix bros.

Thanks for the effort… maybe next time you’ll listen to sense, put in the extra time needed, and avoid yet another **** fix.

requoting all over this thread

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#2693 - 2012-04-04 19:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Lord Morpheus wrote:


Wow your really killing the greatest ship ingame and planning to turn it to a frig. Pretty soon a frig can kill it. When is this gonna stop? Are you planning to make it even cheaper to build this ship and less costly. Thats what you should concentrate on instead. I understand it can one volley a dread or carrier but consider the COST involved and RISK in building a Titan. Did you put that in the equation. Once you can build it in a station with less minerals then nerf away otherwise dont destroy the Power of this ship.



I can see where the developers are coming from in that the Titans are over powered

But at the same time what you say is also true. Getting into a Titan not only takes a massive amount of SP and resources but Once you are in it you are stuck in it

True you can buy/make a holding alt but that is a work around not an intended game mechanic

With the recent nerfs to Titans and the coming additional nerfs however needed they may seem, Titans are losing more and more of there versatility. When initially implemented into the game they were a great addition but they were never intended the reach the numbers they now have. They were ment to be rare with the largest alliances only having one or two, not hundreds across the universe

If Titans are to be changed into something more like a mobile station/support ship and lose their battlefield superiority than they need to be given something back to off set the pain of the nerfs. I am not saying these nerfs are not needed or even not wanted, but with the huge cost of getting into a Titan combined with the fact that you can not leave the ship without leaving it floating in space the Titan pilots need something given back to them in return. I suggest one of two options

Either give Titans a massive defensive boost, they lost offensive capability and will now only be able to fight against other capital ships. If they can not hit sub caps than sub caps should not be able to pop the Titans. Balancing the loss in offensive capability with an increase in defensive capability would maintain the level of power they were meant to have

the other option is if Titans are to be reduced to little more than massive support ships than allow them to dock so the Titan pilots can switch to another ship to partake in more active combat. I started a thread in the new idea's forum suggesting a outpost upgrade docking ring that would allow super capitals to dock at upgraded alliance outposts. I think it would be a fair trade to super cap pilots in exchange for the drastic reduction in versatility of the ships they worked so hard to get into.
Eon Far
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2694 - 2012-04-09 07:42:24 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
You'll have to excuse all the NPC alts everyone, Raidendot gave a command to their troops to only post on alts instead of mains so 'goons wouldn't enjoy tears'.

(we can tell you're all from Raidendot, f y i)


Your smugness and gloating only shows how corrupt that change is.
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#2695 - 2012-04-09 11:09:24 UTC
It is quite telling though that the obvious raiden alts are the only ones going 'no,no changes needed here everythings fine' or 'that change is stupid, heres no reasons why and no alternative suggestions' whereas everyone else agrees changes are needed and has moved on to arguing over what form the changes should take.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Gustav Mannfred
Bring back old Abyssal Arenas
Brothers of Tangra
#2696 - 2012-04-18 08:29:24 UTC
scan res at 5? Concord Battleshps has 60.

they need 40s to target a frig, a titan needs 8 minutes to do this...LOL

i'm REALY miss the old stuff. 

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#2697 - 2012-04-18 12:08:28 UTC
Ken Ishitawa wrote:
NERF BATTLE SHIPS



It's exactly the other way it needs to be done: buff significantly battle-ships
Katy Ling
Crimnson Concept Flame
#2698 - 2012-04-19 17:55:33 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We're not happy with the effectiveness of large groups of titans against subcapital ships, so we're making some adjustments to titans and to XL turrets.



nerf nerf nerf .... why so much work about this ?

super caps are overpowered and them you have to grab a scissor and nerf them all the time and it never ends ...

how about simply removing ewar invulnerability and let the sub caps that dare to face them, to deal with the super caps, now vulnerable to more things than just neutralising.

that way, they would have to bring they're escort to help them deal with normal ships.


in this case, it would be the sub caps responsibility to track disrupt the super caps ... if they bother to fit for it ...