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Incoming titan adjustments

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BioZvin
The Acheron
Unforgiving.
#1561 - 2012-03-14 15:12:47 UTC
Ok lets talk fair, why should a sub cap even be able to damage a Titan... if you NEEDED to field capitals to hurt titans this might not be so bad. But you want to be able to kill them and hold them down. Without ever risking anything yourself, like your own cap fleet....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1562 - 2012-03-14 15:13:57 UTC
Slapnuts McGee wrote:



Then you must agree that these changes will still leave us with a broken ship, I don't see the point in making changes until CCP defines the role they want this ship to fill.


I'll take a bandaid over what we have now.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1563 - 2012-03-14 15:15:22 UTC
BioZvin wrote:
Ok lets talk fair, why should a sub cap even be able to damage a Titan... if you NEEDED to field capitals to hurt titans this might not be so bad. But you want to be able to kill them and hold them down. Without ever risking anything yourself, like your own cap fleet....


The irony of this is that titans risk nothing while subcaps get torn apart.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1564 - 2012-03-14 15:15:55 UTC
BioZvin wrote:
Ok lets talk fair, why should a sub cap even be able to damage a Titan... if you NEEDED to field capitals to hurt titans this might not be so bad. But you want to be able to kill them and hold them down. Without ever risking anything yourself, like your own cap fleet....


you also need to use dictors, which tend to get oneshotted

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1565 - 2012-03-14 15:17:02 UTC
79 pages! 79 pages of wonderful tears! Ah! Ah! Ah!
Slapnuts McGee
Draconis Holding Corporation
#1566 - 2012-03-14 15:17:16 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:

We're telling you right now, these changes will not stop blapping and people will still cry about it. All that will happen at the moment is it will delay how long it takes titans to start shooting stuff.



This is actually somewhat true. Strong drop does adjust things back to a broken state.



Then you must agree that these changes will still leave us with a broken ship, I don't see the point in making changes until CCP defines the role they want this ship to fill.



Would you be happier with -75% instead of -50%?


It's still only a short term fix, I think it would make everyone happy if CCP would actually figure out what they want this ship to do and make it enjoyable to fly wheather it serve a non combat or combat role. These "fixes" aren't going to do any good and have the possibility to turn these back into a nonused pos princess which gives no incentive to people to train up it.
GeneralDisturbed
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1567 - 2012-03-14 15:18:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
BioZvin wrote:
Ok lets talk fair, why should a sub cap even be able to damage a Titan... if you NEEDED to field capitals to hurt titans this might not be so bad. But you want to be able to kill them and hold them down. Without ever risking anything yourself, like your own cap fleet....


The irony of this is that titans risk nothing while subcaps get torn apart.


The true irony is that they just ignore the fact that Titans are completely invincible when in a blob, unless you bring enough supercapitals to outnumber them. So literally the 'blobbing' these guys whine so much about is THEM. Any battleship fleet of any size can be countered and killed by better pilots, better tactics, a better fleet composition. As it stands, the only thing that can fight titans is a bigger blob of titans. It's them. They are the real blobbers.
Slapnuts McGee
Draconis Holding Corporation
#1568 - 2012-03-14 15:19:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:



Then you must agree that these changes will still leave us with a broken ship, I don't see the point in making changes until CCP defines the role they want this ship to fill.


I'll take a bandaid over what we have now.


no, because people will still cry when their mwd'ing drake gets blapped by a titan. Bandaid doesn't do any good, I agree there needs to be a complete overhaul of the ship but this isn't the way to go about it putting "duct tape" over the problem and hoping it goes away.
Acwron
Meet The Fockers
#1569 - 2012-03-14 15:20:12 UTC
Valearx wrote:
Acwron wrote:
GeneralDisturbed wrote:
The amount of neutral PL/Raiden alts in this thread, desperately clinging to the entitled notion that they should be allowed to fly around in unkillable ships because they paid a little more isk, is amazing. When every other ship in the game can be killed by subcaps, but you drop titans and suddenly subcaps are meaningless. If 1600 people show up to take someone's space, and they can only field 200 guys, then THEY DO NOT DESERVE THAT SPACE. This is how the world works. You should not magically be allowed to pick space and control it because you can stick 50 guys into a super ship, and stand it up to 1600 people.


OMG, really? You are really, really disturbed son.
So we paid a little more iskie...just a little. A LITTLE ?
You come with 1600 maels and wanna kill 50 titans?

Man, I'd like to have what this guy smoked, seems to be good shite.


Sorry about your iskies bro Sad Guess you'll have to go back to flying subcaps like 99.98% of the rest of EVE Pirate


You have a communist approach bro. If you can't fly it, why can I...You're so cool.
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1570 - 2012-03-14 15:20:16 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Dreads are mainly antistructure, with a bit of anti-cap. Carriers still do pretty decent damage against subcaps AFAIK. Supers can switch between anti-cap and anti-subcap depending on their choice of fighter drone. Titans are pure anti-cap.


Up until now Greyscale, Titans were never "pure anti-cap". Indeed, pre-dominion their primary function was to mass murder subcap fleets with their AOE Doomsdays. In Dominion you replaced the AOE with a directed weapon, capable of hitting any ship, and in addition you enhanced the regular XL weapon bonuses "so that the turret locators actually might get used [to]enable a Titan to make its presence felt on the battalefield" " to quote your own devblog.

Now however, they are suddenly "pure anti-cap" as if they were never intended for anything else.


Realtalk:

Every single titan nerf has been to reduce their effectiveness towards subcaps. Titans on paper are actually not designed to hit subcaps for ****, it's only when you get a bunch that it's nearly impossible to maintain transversal from them all. **** they have dread guns on them and their drones were taken away, what about these things suggest they were designed as anti subcap platforms? I just don't understand this reasoning. Sure you've been taking advantage of their inability to balance these things vs subcaps properly but being an anti blob weapon clearly wasn't their intent by design and now we have them on record confirming this is the case.



Dear very important space ship personality,

the main purpose of AE DD was obviously to kill subcaps in large numbers.
The main purpose of focused DD was clearly to be able to kill every ship with one shot (including subcaps).

So as you can see the idea that supercaps should be a pure anti-capital weapon is rather new.

However, I do like that this was changed and do think that supercaps still need balancing. Making them useless is not the solution though.


Holy crap, you are dumb.

CCP originally though few of these ships would ever get built. It had no ******* ROLE, it was a **** in space, as already said by Hilmar years ago.

They were able to kill everything on grid. Without ever being on a grid. Are you completely ******** and think that was a part of CCP's grand long-term plan for titans?

I can only laugh at all the idiots training/botting for titans thinking titans would not get nerfed into oblivion at some point.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1571 - 2012-03-14 15:20:47 UTC
BioZvin wrote:
Ok lets talk fair, why should a sub cap even be able to damage a Titan... if you NEEDED to field capitals to hurt titans this might not be so bad. But you want to be able to kill them and hold them down. Without ever risking anything yourself, like your own cap fleet....


"by spending 60b i should be invulnerable to the little people" is the antithisis of EVE

no surprise it comes from bob mk4

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1572 - 2012-03-14 15:22:33 UTC
Slapnuts McGee wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Slapnuts McGee wrote:



Then you must agree that these changes will still leave us with a broken ship, I don't see the point in making changes until CCP defines the role they want this ship to fill.


I'll take a bandaid over what we have now.


no, because people will still cry when their mwd'ing drake gets blapped by a titan. Bandaid doesn't do any good, I agree there needs to be a complete overhaul of the ship but this isn't the way to go about it putting "duct tape" over the problem and hoping it goes away.


Still better than what we have now, plus CCP are going to keep an eye on it and make adjustments as needed.
Valearx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1573 - 2012-03-14 15:24:56 UTC
Acwron wrote:


You have a communist approach bro. If you can't fly it, why can I...You're so cool.



Its p. tough being on the winning side m8 Cool
Gertrud ToD
Terrorists of Dimensions
#1574 - 2012-03-14 15:26:18 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
Strange bedfellows. I was among the most vocal in criticizing Greyscale for not consulting with the CSM about the anomaly nerf, and yet here I see him slandered by a legion of altposters from RDN and NCdot for 'not consulting' when he actually did.

In this case, the CSM was consulted and the solutions were discussed at length; it just happens that the non-PL representatives who participated in the discussion (most of the CSM) supported these changes to a man. I'm delighted to have all of you point your fingers at me and Vile Rat and howl about ~goon conspiracies~, though.

The hard fact is that Titan pilots are .3% of player population, Titans shouldn't be able to impact subcaps, and everyone - except for PL's reps on the council - agrees that this needs to happen.

Anyway, Greyscale has clearly learned from the Anomaly nerf; not only did Anoms get un-nerfed a bit later in response to criticism, he's consulted fully and at length with the CSM on this issue.

funny how one of your co-csm's allready disagreed with that *before* your post. btw, hes not in PL, have fun searching the post.
Gertrud ToD
Terrorists of Dimensions
#1575 - 2012-03-14 15:27:20 UTC
GeneralDisturbed wrote:
Triskian wrote:
Good morning thread. I see some of you have been busy overnight.

Can someone recap the last 11 pages for me please?


PL/Raiden continue to ignore all arguments to the contrary, and keep pretending that they're a battered alliance of 200 desperate people fighting 1600 goons, and the only thing saving them is their not-overpowred titan "equalizers".

the numbers are 2000 raiden vs 8000 goons.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1576 - 2012-03-14 15:27:23 UTC
Gertrud ToD wrote:

funny how one of your co-csm's allready disagreed with that *before* your post. btw, hes not in PL, have fun searching the post.

the one who didn't participate at all?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Triskian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1577 - 2012-03-14 15:29:11 UTC
Gertrud ToD wrote:

funny how one of your co-csm's allready disagreed with that *before* your post. btw, hes not in PL, have fun searching the post.


Funny how you ignored CCP Greyscale calling said co-csm out for refusing to actually participate in the discussion the Devs had with the CSM.
Razzor Death
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1578 - 2012-03-14 15:29:25 UTC
The greatest part about this thread is reading how PL encourage the change but express fear in how they go about the change and what new role they will have ( understandable ) and then reading Raiden and NCdot crying like big babbis about how unfair this is and its all a Goon conspiracy and Goon's getting their way and we are the horrible blobbers.

Fun fact Raiden and NCdot, every big fight we had ( every single big fight ) CCP was in local with us. They could see damn well you was NOT being blobbed and that the numbers where even and that the Titans where dropped to simply win your objectives with out contest.

But please keep this up its ******* hilarious but the only people you are fooling are the pubbies and not CCP.
Khadmos
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1579 - 2012-03-14 15:29:29 UTC
Roime wrote:


What about the claim I've seen that dreads can also counter titans?


That's theory crafting BS. Look at it this way, one DD and a dread is almost dead, regular guns will finish it off fast. A dread fleet going up against titans is a suicide fleet. The CFC tried it, lost something like 36 dreads to kill 1 titan and I think the titan only died because it was bumped or something. In the end lost over 250bil in ships and destroyed 80-90bil. Oh and I'm pretty sure failed to defend/destroy their objective.

Roime wrote:



And about titan tracking (current version) - can they track for example BCs that are in close orbit?

My Talos one-shots moving frigates at 40km, but can't touch them if they get close- this is balanced. How is it with titan guns?


You orbit one titan at 20km and his buddy sitting 60km away blaps you when you have 0 traversal. A titan is not imbalanced, one titan is not a problem. The problem is titans, 20+ in a fleet all spread out with 20 DD's to nearly instagib the first 20 dreads that land on the field.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1580 - 2012-03-14 15:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Swearte Widfarend wrote:
I supposed if you are with a good anchor who is doing more than "keep at range" you might get a bit more transversal up to a single opponent. The issue that Vile Rat has (and I don't disagree with the issue) is that when you have a lot of turret Titans on grid, at some point you are going to have a really low transversal to some of them. The problem isn't a single Titan (although that is a separate problem), the problem is a fleet of them. So what CCP has tried to do is to ensure that even if you have the SP and ISK to field a fleet of Titans, you can't hit subcaps. But they missed the target.
…and I understand this. I'm merely pointing out the fallacy of the categorical “MWD → carrier sig” claim, which completely ignores why people fit MWDs to begin with and the effect it has. I'm also pointing out that the effect the MWD has is pretty much irrelvant since they're balanced in such a way that (subject to meta differences in the penalties, of course) the compound effect of bloom and speed means you're pretty much just as easy or hard to hit as if you had the MWD off. The MWD isn't a factor in hitting the target.

Hell, I even made the same argument you did at the very start of the page when someone asked why on earth a Titan would even want to lock on to a cruiser… (and was called silly and ignorant for doing so).

What you describe is an issue with or without MWD — it's an effect of zero angular velocity, and no amount of sig bloom (or sig reduction) changes that effect. That's my entire point: that the whole MWD argument is a red herring from people who seemingly don't understand what affects tracking.