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Incoming titan adjustments

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Sade Onyx
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1341 - 2012-03-14 10:00:24 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:


Actually, Greyscale went to Cambridge, and while we haven't IQ tested him yet, I'm pretty sure he'd score high Bear


Unlike every single test or exam that has ever been devised, the standard IQ test has never changed since it was first made hundreds of years ago, when the internet didnt exist, TV was black & White and the Space invaders was the best computer game. Its inadequate, inaccurate and isnt much of an indicator about anything.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1342 - 2012-03-14 10:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
Tippia wrote:
MWDing will absolutely make you get harder and more often



This just needed quoting.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1343 - 2012-03-14 10:01:30 UTC
Kern Walzky wrote:
The problem is the current mechanics of shooting structures. You DONT need capitals or supers.....
So now we have a range of capital killing & Structure killing ships that will never be used.

If your so into easy changes CCP nerf subcaps to NOT be able to shoot any kind of structures except custom offices.

This will force capitals out and the use for the multi nerfed expensive Supers will atleast be there somewhere.

Otherwise i just wasted so many many months of training, i used all my isk on an mercedes(titan) and got a Fiat(Space elevator).
All this with no refund, no nothing.

CCP you really must start making those big changes to game mechanics instead of nerf's all over the place....

last thing.. a question.

to the simple pilot. what do you think you want to train to when you reach 100+mill Skillpoints??? i guess supers is not on your plan right...but what then...when you fly everything else....but hey perhaps you can walk in stations? hey or play another game perhaps???

Naaah CCP, all players are going to be so happy with this change in the long run im sure....What?


So how would you kill a POS in high sec or wormholes?
Palander
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1344 - 2012-03-14 10:03:49 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Titan Keeper 22 wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:
Titan Keeper 22 wrote:

- CCP employee's and the CSMs aren't all geniuses; you think they are all from IVY League and with 150IQ+? If so, then we'd be glad to have your decision about this. They should not think of themselves nor listen only to those people wanting the nerf. As a titan pilot myself, I am not against the nerf entirely, but surely am disagreeing about the fact that this is all going one-sided for the moment. You people can't be making decisions like communists. Wherever the idea came out from, balance it out evenly. Due to so many opposition on this adjustment fix, I am pretty sure that there are other better ways to improve this current situation.(should look back at what you did/ when you were working on supercarrier nerf and the shield carrier fix; you listened to everyone, made a great desicion/patch, and the feedback/result came back positive)


Most of the large alliance leadership happen to be extremely smart and successful in real life.
Shadoo (leader of PL): Architect-ed HP's Sharepoint deployment. Also a published expert on Microsoft Sharepoint. While incredibly smug, but he's earned it. He just so happens to be smarter than you. He posted a well structured rebuttal that voices the frustration that most of you terrible pubbies have. If you'd take a page out of his book and intelligently structure your rebuttals then CCP would actually give a crap about what you have to say.
Trebor (CSM) - Conceived Wizardry . He's a large reason you have RPG video games. He's on the CSM and smarter than you.
The Mittani (Chairman for life) - Retired high priced Washington, D.C. hot shot lawyer. motherf***ing king of space. Has been the most intelligently vocal mouthpiece of the largest player bloc (28,000 strong). Just going out on a limb here, but I'd venture to guess he's smarter than you.
Grath Teklien - I don't know what grath does in real life, but I hope he's a federal judge, because that would be amazing and utterly priceless. He may be wrong, but at least he commits to defend his position through multiple pages of dribble. He's smarter than you.
CCP Soundwave - Funnier, wittier, and smarter than you. Unfortunately he says UHHHHHHHH a lot, but I won't hold it against him, because he's probably thinking in viking and translating it to English.
Seleene didn't cut it at CCP, but he's probably smarter than you.

I don't really care enough to keep going, but I guess my point is: Post on your main, or get out.

P.S. I just spellchecked and fixed your post for you. I guess I'm smarter than you too.



i mean no offence to any of those people above,

but out of all those people you have listed, which one of them have actually had influence on the comming changes of the titan?
and their jobs may indicate the fact of their smartness, but in what criteria? i've only mentioned 'genius', 'IVY League', and 'IQ' as reference and none of them seem to match. though they could partially be matched in your way of thinking, you've clearly did not understand what i was trying to say; obviously those three references were just metaphorical words to state the fact that those influencing people, just by working themselves, can not lead and design the game properly such in a way that may satisfy vast majority of the players equally.

and do you think you can give me a single name of a game copy that had not failed, made by a company which has employees' that had favourited one particular thought or a group of people but then didn't give a damn of the majority(that includes people)?

I hear that a lot, maybe all, of the most successful games - League of Legends/Starcraft II/WoW/BattleField 3/Warcraft III/Counter Strike/COD:ModernWarfare/ balance out game mechanic based on people's thoughts and inputs but not on their(employee could include beta testers as well.) own. they surely could've made a success without majority of the players input and thoughts but with communist like group of people only.

here's the short version -

the game designer/ balancing team/ CSM/ whomever that gives influence need to be listening to everyone voice, not just goonswarm/cfc

obviously you're mad at somthing, because i'm guessing you have no life but only on the internet, you have to be somthing. get e-peen out of this. or else you have no way of getting dophamine. am i right?

so you're telling me to get out? you think you own this place? this forum? this company? just because you're from Goonswarm?

i think you've stayed in communist-like environment for too long.

i dont think anyone's curious about my identity other than you or the GS; becaues you see, have i insulted anyone with this character? have i said anything about what should be changed of the april titan fix?

wasting hell of a time to do a research and do background checks on people that dont give a damn about you just to prove nothing which has nothing to do with this topic..comparing my smartness to other people and then using it for insulting..telling me to get out because i do not post in my main..

you just really suck at trolling


Actually, Greyscale went to Cambridge, and while we haven't IQ tested him yet, I'm pretty sure he'd score high Bear


And George W. Bush went to Harvard...
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1345 - 2012-03-14 10:04:52 UTC
Palander wrote:


And George W. Bush went to Harvard...


Some ****** American school? What's your point?
Thor of Viking
Doomheim
#1346 - 2012-03-14 10:05:58 UTC
Palander wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Titan Keeper 22 wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:
Titan Keeper 22 wrote:

- CCP employee's and the CSMs aren't all geniuses; you think they are all from IVY League and with 150IQ+? If so, then we'd be glad to have your decision about this. They should not think of themselves nor listen only to those people wanting the nerf. As a titan pilot myself, I am not against the nerf entirely, but surely am disagreeing about the fact that this is all going one-sided for the moment. You people can't be making decisions like communists. Wherever the idea came out from, balance it out evenly. Due to so many opposition on this adjustment fix, I am pretty sure that there are other better ways to improve this current situation.(should look back at what you did/ when you were working on supercarrier nerf and the shield carrier fix; you listened to everyone, made a great desicion/patch, and the feedback/result came back positive)


Most of the large alliance leadership happen to be extremely smart and successful in real life.
Shadoo (leader of PL): Architect-ed HP's Sharepoint deployment. Also a published expert on Microsoft Sharepoint. While incredibly smug, but he's earned it. He just so happens to be smarter than you. He posted a well structured rebuttal that voices the frustration that most of you terrible pubbies have. If you'd take a page out of his book and intelligently structure your rebuttals then CCP would actually give a crap about what you have to say.
Trebor (CSM) - Conceived Wizardry . He's a large reason you have RPG video games. He's on the CSM and smarter than you.
The Mittani (Chairman for life) - Retired high priced Washington, D.C. hot shot lawyer. motherf***ing king of space. Has been the most intelligently vocal mouthpiece of the largest player bloc (28,000 strong). Just going out on a limb here, but I'd venture to guess he's smarter than you.
Grath Teklien - I don't know what grath does in real life, but I hope he's a federal judge, because that would be amazing and utterly priceless. He may be wrong, but at least he commits to defend his position through multiple pages of dribble. He's smarter than you.
CCP Soundwave - Funnier, wittier, and smarter than you. Unfortunately he says UHHHHHHHH a lot, but I won't hold it against him, because he's probably thinking in viking and translating it to English.
Seleene didn't cut it at CCP, but he's probably smarter than you.

I don't really care enough to keep going, but I guess my point is: Post on your main, or get out.

P.S. I just spellchecked and fixed your post for you. I guess I'm smarter than you too.



i mean no offence to any of those people above,

but out of all those people you have listed, which one of them have actually had influence on the comming changes of the titan?
and their jobs may indicate the fact of their smartness, but in what criteria? i've only mentioned 'genius', 'IVY League', and 'IQ' as reference and none of them seem to match. though they could partially be matched in your way of thinking, you've clearly did not understand what i was trying to say; obviously those three references were just metaphorical words to state the fact that those influencing people, just by working themselves, can not lead and design the game properly such in a way that may satisfy vast majority of the players equally.

and do you think you can give me a single name of a game copy that had not failed, made by a company which has employees' that had favourited one particular thought or a group of people but then didn't give a damn of the majority(that includes people)?

I hear that a lot, maybe all, of the most successful games - League of Legends/Starcraft II/WoW/BattleField 3/Warcraft III/Counter Strike/COD:ModernWarfare/ balance out game mechanic based on people's thoughts and inputs but not on their(employee could include beta testers as well.) own. they surely could've made a success without majority of the players input and thoughts but with communist like group of people only.

here's the short version -

the game designer/ balancing team/ CSM/ whomever that gives influence need to be listening to everyone voice, not just goonswarm/cfc

obviously you're mad at somthing, because i'm guessing you have no life but only on the internet, you have to be somthing. get e-peen out of this. or else you have no way of getting dophamine. am i right?

so you're telling me to get out? you think you own this place? this forum? this company? just because you're from Goonswarm?

i think you've stayed in communist-like environment for too long.

i dont think anyone's curious about my identity other than you or the GS; becaues you see, have i insulted anyone with this character? have i said anything about what should be changed of the april titan fix?

wasting hell of a time to do a research and do background checks on people that dont give a damn about you just to prove nothing which has nothing to do with this topic..comparing my smartness to other people and then using it for insulting..telling me to get out because i do not post in my main..

you just really suck at trolling


Actually, Greyscale went to Cambridge, and while we haven't IQ tested him yet, I'm pretty sure he'd score high Bear


And George W. Bush went to Harvard...


Pls don't compare Cambridge with Harvard its embarrassing and kind of offensive as well. There is quit a difference between the two.
BioZvin
The Acheron
Unforgiving.
#1347 - 2012-03-14 10:07:03 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:

Actually, Greyscale went to Cambridge, and while we haven't IQ tested him yet, I'm pretty sure he'd score high Bear


I am sorry in advance here, but could we get some indication from CCP that we are being heard here. Put a lot of time into this game and really would ratter not be forced to leave because I feel like CCP only listens to Goons. I know they say we are less people then they are, but they don't number 345000 like they would have us believe.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1348 - 2012-03-14 10:12:01 UTC
BioZvin wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:

Actually, Greyscale went to Cambridge, and while we haven't IQ tested him yet, I'm pretty sure he'd score high Bear


I am sorry in advance here, but could we get some indication from CCP that we are being heard here. Put a lot of time into this game and really would ratter not be forced to leave because I feel like CCP only listens to Goons. I know they say we are less people then they are, but they don't number 345000 like they would have us believe.


We're absolutely listening.

Titans are an anti-cap/supercap ship and we need to limit their ability to kill subcaps. That's a change that's happening and is unlikely to change. The practical details on how that happens we'd love as much feedback on as possible. We've been talking about the lock timers this morning based on feedback from the playerbase, looking at what adjustments we can possibly make. The changes in the OP are still subject to change if we get feedback on how to achieve our goal better.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1349 - 2012-03-14 10:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
CCP Soundwave wrote:


We're absolutely listening.

Titans are an anti-cap/supercap ship and we need to limit their ability to kill subcaps. That's a change that's happening and is unlikely to change. The practical details on how that happens we'd love as much feedback on as possible. We've been talking about the lock timers this morning based on feedback from the playerbase, looking at what adjustments we can possibly make. The changes in the OP are still subject to change if we get feedback on how to achieve our goal better.


When can we expect this to hit sisi?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1350 - 2012-03-14 10:16:41 UTC
BioZvin wrote:


I am sorry in advance here, but could we get some indication from CCP that we are being heard here. Put a lot of time into this game and really would ratter not be forced to leave because I feel like CCP only listens to Goons. I know they say we are less people then they are, but they don't number 345000 like they would have us believe.



I heard this exact same argument when CCP nerfed AOE titans, nano, ECM, drones ect ect.
Dasdraperma
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1351 - 2012-03-14 10:33:02 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:


We're absolutely listening.

Titans are an anti-cap/supercap ship and we need to limit their ability to kill subcaps. That's a change that's happening and is unlikely to change. The practical details on how that happens we'd love as much feedback on as possible. We've been talking about the lock timers this morning based on feedback from the playerbase, looking at what adjustments we can possibly make. The changes in the OP are still subject to change if we get feedback on how to achieve our goal better.


Its really amazing how you change ships that costs months or even years to train, and billions of isks to buy. And I'm really impressed on your explanations on how "needed" are theese changes.

The only thing bothers me now - what should i do as supercap pilot, if i'm, f...ng tired with f...ng structures, and all your game designers offer to capitals is to "logoff and keep paying for account". Should i sit to drake much as like Goon-style? Or stay logged off at pos, untill one more structure should be taken down?

What should i do, if i'm not interested in subcapitals? Just leave, and make Goons and other blobs happy?

Dont reply for me, just answer yourself.
Thor of Viking
Doomheim
#1352 - 2012-03-14 10:34:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Thor of Viking
CCP Soundwave wrote:
BioZvin wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:

Actually, Greyscale went to Cambridge, and while we haven't IQ tested him yet, I'm pretty sure he'd score high Bear


I am sorry in advance here, but could we get some indication from CCP that we are being heard here. Put a lot of time into this game and really would ratter not be forced to leave because I feel like CCP only listens to Goons. I know they say we are less people then they are, but they don't number 345000 like they would have us believe.


We're absolutely listening.

Titans are an anti-cap/supercap ship and we need to limit their ability to kill subcaps. That's a change that's happening and is unlikely to change. The practical details on how that happens we'd love as much feedback on as possible. We've been talking about the lock timers this morning based on feedback from the playerbase, looking at what adjustments we can possibly make. The changes in the OP are still subject to change if we get feedback on how to achieve our goal better.


Okay then here are a few..
These changes will not change much Titans will still hit sub-caps rather well titan pilots will just have more micromanagement on their hands and that's about it.

If you want them to not impact sub-caps all that much not you should chance the signature of the weapon right now it is 1000 meter push it up to something like 2500 meter and sub-caps that use transversal and low signature will not be impacted by titans.

I think the Tracking reduction is fine and should stay as is.
But max targets 3 coupled with scan res. 5 is crippling titans even in capital fights. Titan without Sensor boosters will need almost one minute to lock up a dread. I think that's not well though out. For armor titans it is an option to fit sensor boosters yes but not for shield titans please think about that! Also once they do not impact sub-caps anymore their Capital Weapon output should be boosted considerably. I'm not talking about the doomsday I'm talking about the Capital Weapons because right now even dreads out DPS titans. If you give them 25-30% more DPS in exchange for their inability to effect sub-caps I'm fairly sure they will start fitting their role as anti-capital/super-capital weapon. As to scan res. 5 I think that it should be 15 or at least 10. Max targets 3 you might want to consider 4 but otherwise okay.

Thanks for your time.

*Edit*

I would also like to ask you to consider the possibility of allowing people to gm-dock their Titans until the time you have the time and resources to do a real reassessment of titans and super-capitals in general. Not because its needed but because your throwing a bone to the people who have 80-150 million SP characters locked up in these abominations and it means they will keep these accounts subscribed that would otherwise go death. Its basicly a win for all sides CCP keeps subscriptions, Players get to use their characters and super-capital haters can kindle the hope that these titan pilots will like sub-caps so much that they don't want to go back in that mobile character grave yard.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1353 - 2012-03-14 10:36:53 UTC
Dasdraperma wrote:


Its really amazing how you change ships that costs months or even years to train, and billions of isks to buy. And I'm really impressed on your explanations on how "needed" are theese changes.

The only thing bothers me now - what should i do as supercap pilot, if i'm, f...ng tired with f...ng structures, and all your game designers offer to capitals is to "logoff and keep paying for account". Should i sit to drake much as like Goon-style? Or stay logged off at pos, untill one more structure should be taken down?

What should i do, if i'm not interested in subcapitals? Just leave, and make Goons and other blobs happy?

Dont reply for me, just answer yourself.


Its your own fault if you ignore 99% of the ships out there.
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1354 - 2012-03-14 10:38:22 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
BioZvin wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:

Actually, Greyscale went to Cambridge, and while we haven't IQ tested him yet, I'm pretty sure he'd score high Bear


I am sorry in advance here, but could we get some indication from CCP that we are being heard here. Put a lot of time into this game and really would ratter not be forced to leave because I feel like CCP only listens to Goons. I know they say we are less people then they are, but they don't number 345000 like they would have us believe.


We're absolutely listening.

Titans are an anti-cap/supercap ship and we need to limit their ability to kill subcaps. That's a change that's happening and is unlikely to change. The practical details on how that happens we'd love as much feedback on as possible. We've been talking about the lock timers this morning based on feedback from the playerbase, looking at what adjustments we can possibly make. The changes in the OP are still subject to change if we get feedback on how to achieve our goal better.


Then take your time and develop a decent concept that doesn't hurt only one side and gives every ship an viable role. If you think that supercaps should be only good at killing dreads and carriers, than make dreads and carriers a viable weapon against BS (+50% Tracking bonus to dreads in siege mode would help). Right now they are only used for ratting and structure shooting. Thus, there is simply no need for a anti-capital pownage machine. --> Supercaps become useless!!! (ok you can still bridge stuff with titans)

Honestly, it would be fairer to simply remove all supercaps and to reimburse the players than this one-sided nerf into oblivion. Right now titans are the only weapon against huge blobs only one alliance is able to field. You basically force us now to do the same. Not sure if having only two huge powerblocks is good for eve.

Oh, and maybe you should take a closer look at the alpha damage of artillery. (High-Sec people would love you for that and they comprise the majority of players.)

P.S: Please start to play your own game. The reason why titans are so good at killing subcaps atm is not because titans have such great tracking but rather because a MWD Drake and a Maelstorm have a signature of a carrier.
Dr 0wnage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1355 - 2012-03-14 10:40:58 UTC
First off... ITS ABOUT TIME!

Secondly... its not quite right...

Tracking changes are exactly what we need. The scan res and locked target changes however are not needed. A tracking penalty alone will prevent titans from effectively engaging sub cap fleets. The changes to their scan res will only hinder them in their anti-capital role.

My suggestions are as follows...

1. Nerf XL tracking a bit more. Reason being is that a tracking moros hits BS with relative ease currently (same tracking titans will have with this change). As you said, we have to assume faction / officer tracking computers will be used if it means they'll hit BS / BC.

2. Increase Titan damage bonus (up to 200% at least). As it is currently, titans can be out damaged by dreads. If there role is an anti-capital one, then they need the best at it.

3. Give the dread siege module a tracking bonus. If dreads can fill the role that people were using titans for before (killing BS and BC), then we have a perfect formula for capital escalation. subs < dreads < supers < subs
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1356 - 2012-03-14 10:42:58 UTC
John Maynard Keynes wrote:


Then take your time and develop a decent concept that doesn't hurt only one side and gives every ship an viable role. If you think that supercaps should be only good at killing dreads and carriers, than make dreads and carriers a viable weapon against BS (+50% Tracking bonus to dreads in siege mode would help). Right now they are only used for ratting and structure shooting. Thus, there is simply no need for a anti-capital pownage machine. --> Supercaps become useless!!! (ok you can still bridge stuff with titans)

Honestly, it would be fairer to simply remove all supercaps and to reimburse the players than this one-sided nerf into oblivion. Right now titans are the only weapon against huge blobs only one alliance is able to field. You basically force us now to do the same. Not sure if having only two huge powerblocks is good for eve.

Oh, and maybe you should take a closer look at the alpha damage of artillery. (High-Sec people would love you for that and they comprise the majority of players.)

P.S: Please start to play your own game. The reason why titans are so good at killing subcaps atm is not because titans have such great tracking but rather because a MWD Drake and a Maelstorm have a signature of a carrier.


There are 3 blocks that can field the same number and carriers are still good for large fights as are the dreads. Also, if the blob is unbeatable why did the NC, BoB, Goons, DRF, Red Alliance, Tri, ASCN ect ect never manage to take over all of 0.0 in the past?
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1357 - 2012-03-14 10:43:48 UTC
CCP Soundwave, with the critical changes applied to all ships and SCs in particular in regards to log off timers and drone bay nerfs, i believe that with the new changes applying to titans should have some of those older changes revised.

I believe the push to get smaller ships Vs smaller ships only is a pretty bad move.

The sum of all of these changes happening could be thus: how can a smaller sov holding alliance hope to defend or even take new space when they are forced onto the battlefield in similar ships but are outnumbered? Are there plans to ballance out ship quantity? I could give a more fleshed out post but i am dead tired.

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Killerhound
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1358 - 2012-03-14 10:45:51 UTC
With those changes incoming and the most used tactics currently on TQ what we will see in future what already happened on chinese server.

Most of the fleets will be composed of cheap T1 Ships with T1/T2/named equipment (Drake) and with mostly reimbursement. This creates uninteresting combats since only numbers counts nothing else.

It is also a problem because most players loose ther intensive to even use Super Caps since they have no use. That on the other end means that you will reach endgame within 2 months of play.

I have a clear statement:

- Dont punish long term player who had a lot of work to get titans / Scs


Reward player for their investment. I think CCP Greyscale is right about investment and gain. In economics marginal utility should be linear not dropping again like with titans now.

Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1359 - 2012-03-14 10:54:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
John Maynard Keynes wrote:


Then take your time and develop a decent concept that doesn't hurt only one side and gives every ship an viable role. If you think that supercaps should be only good at killing dreads and carriers, than make dreads and carriers a viable weapon against BS (+50% Tracking bonus to dreads in siege mode would help). Right now they are only used for ratting and structure shooting. Thus, there is simply no need for a anti-capital pownage machine. --> Supercaps become useless!!! (ok you can still bridge stuff with titans)

Honestly, it would be fairer to simply remove all supercaps and to reimburse the players than this one-sided nerf into oblivion. Right now titans are the only weapon against huge blobs only one alliance is able to field. You basically force us now to do the same. Not sure if having only two huge powerblocks is good for eve.

Oh, and maybe you should take a closer look at the alpha damage of artillery. (High-Sec people would love you for that and they comprise the majority of players.)

P.S: Please start to play your own game. The reason why titans are so good at killing subcaps atm is not because titans have such great tracking but rather because a MWD Drake and a Maelstorm have a signature of a carrier.


There are 3 blocks that can field the same number and carriers are still good for large fights as are the dreads. Also, if the blob is unbeatable why did the NC, BoB, Goons, DRF, Red Alliance, Tri, ASCN ect ect never manage to take over all of 0.0 in the past?



they were beaten by a bigger blob after making dumb choices.

OMG when can i get a pic here
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1360 - 2012-03-14 10:56:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sade Onyx wrote:
Unlike every single test or exam that has ever been devised, the standard IQ test has never changed since it was first made hundreds of years ago, when the internet didnt exist, TV was black & White and the Space invaders was the best computer game.
…aside from there being no standard IQ test since so many variations of it have been created over the last century, each with its own advantages, quirks, and problems. So I suppose you're right in a way: something that doesn't exist can't really change, after all.

Ganthrithor wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
MWDing will absolutely make you get harder and more often
This just needed quoting.
It also needs to be attributed correctly.