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Incoming titan adjustments

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Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#2201 - 2012-03-15 14:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Bagehi wrote:

It is the end game right now because it is a do everything, kill everything ship. If the game has an I-Win button, it is the end game. It works well for single player games, but is pretty terrible for MMOs.


Raiden/NCdot/PL has enjoyed a supercapital superiority now for well over a year. After the fall of the NC last fall, that superiority became massive. If these fleets were an I-win button, why is it that they dont controll all of nullsec by now? Why is it that their invasion of Deklein failed? Why is it that Goonswarm havent been chased into lowsec with their tails between their legs?

Is it because Raiden dont hate the Goons strongly enough? Is it because they didnt want those systems anyway? Or is it because these fleets are not the I-win button their enemies claim them to be?
Mathicluanna
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2202 - 2012-03-15 14:28:16 UTC
Because supercap pilots are not mindless automatons who can stay logged into the game 24/7 without burning out.

Or your thing (hint: its not your thing).
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2203 - 2012-03-15 14:30:28 UTC
Andski wrote:

all we need now are some sun tzu quotes, ww2 analogies and it's hi5s all around


“Even the finest Avatar plunged into salt water will eventually rust.”
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2204 - 2012-03-15 14:31:54 UTC
"What is of the greatest importance in war is extraordinary speed: One cannot afford to neglect transversal."
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2205 - 2012-03-15 14:33:22 UTC
"If an enemy has tracking Titans, the problem is grave and the enemy's position strong; if he has no tracking Titans, the problem is minor and the enemy's position weak."
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#2206 - 2012-03-15 14:34:19 UTC
Mathicluanna wrote:
Because supercap pilots are not mindless automatons who can stay logged into the game 24/7 without burning out.

Or your thing (hint: its not your thing).


Really? they had the stamina to topple the Northern coalition across 5 regions, but not the Goons in Deklein?
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2207 - 2012-03-15 14:35:27 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
If we could add alliances to the ignore on forums ;(


That would be great! Then we'd never hear the whining from Raiden. PL Ev0ke NC. + friends ever again!

It'd be like they ceased to exist ingame and out of game.

Oh wait, that wouldn't be great. There'd be no-one left to troll. Straight
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2208 - 2012-03-15 14:39:12 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Mathicluanna wrote:
Because supercap pilots are not mindless automatons who can stay logged into the game 24/7 without burning out.

Or your thing (hint: its not your thing).


Really? they had the stamina to topple the Northern coalition across 5 regions, but not the Goons in Deklein?


Umm if I remember correctly from other forums, the only reason they failed was because they tried a 'headshot' operation in VFK and totally f**ked it up. Wasn't anything Goons did, rather it was the failure of their own FC's.

But then you knew that. I wish I could use a Damage Control II out of game too. Cool
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2209 - 2012-03-15 14:40:39 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Mathicluanna wrote:
Because supercap pilots are not mindless automatons who can stay logged into the game 24/7 without burning out.

Or your thing (hint: its not your thing).


Really? they had the stamina to topple the Northern coalition across 5 regions, but not the Goons in Deklein?

why is the noname worthless empiredweller trying to talk about nullsec warfare

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2210 - 2012-03-15 14:46:57 UTC
Leer0y Brown wrote:
Here's a though,

Keep the lock timer the same, and triple the sig size of carriers and dreads + supers. What would that negatively impact?

Since all guns should be able to capitals, including super caps vs capitals, just blow up the sig size. Right now, MWD based drakes, and battleships have similar sizes to capitals ships...

This is the problem, and a simple solution. Everything else is very reasonable in this context. However, titans should not take 30 seconds to lock a carrier or a dread, it should be almost instant.


I just realized that Avatar was always supposed to be just an oversized Zealot.
Caldari Citizen20110707
Doomheim
#2211 - 2012-03-15 14:48:13 UTC
So titan pilots i have some good news...and drake pilots...not so good news...

tl;dr: Tracking titans are gonna own battleships in the face...battlecruisers however are getting off the hook

So lets take this one step a time and put down some facts.
1. Tracking cut down by a factor of 2
2. Scan res reduced to 5.

Lets discuss scan res reduction first, cause utimately it affects gank titans more than the tracking reduction. Current base scan res is 50, so it's going down by a factor of 10, sounds hefty...

So lets work out the numbers...
Base scan res: 5
Skill bonus: 1.25
Fleet bonus: 1.1
3x Fed Navy Sebo: 4.026
65% per computer with 87% and 57% stacking penalty on 2nd and 3rd 1.65+(1.65*0.87)+(1.65*0.57)
Total multiplier: 5.5

This makes your scan res a whooping 27...yay

Now the lock time relates to scan res and sig radius as follows: 40000/(Scan*(sinh-1(sig)2))

Since most of you don't have any clue what this looks like, here it is:
http://imageshack.us/f/407/titlocktime.jpg/
this is lock time vs sig radius. blue line is for 2 sebo which gives scan res of 21 and red is for 3 sebo and scan res of 27 and change.

So morale of the story here is that is that it takes the same order of magnitude time to lock more or less any ship that titan has an chance of hitting at all (more about trackng coming up).
I don't have a problem with this apart from the fact that it takes about 20s to lock a carrier which means any pos hugging carriers are more than likely to make it into shields before you can lock and dd them. On a more down to earth level with a maximum of 3 targets locked and assuming 3 shots per target it takes an erebus 20s to kill a target which means you can keep 3 targets locked almost constantly and don't have to slow down even while killing battleships, as you will be locking at them at close to if not faster than killing rate. I think CCP didn't do their math properly here...or maybe I shoud throw my math degree away but ok...i'll take this nerf...

Part 2...lets nerf titan tracking!

In science and math you can generally gain and drop factors of 2 without much consiquence to the final result, since most things are frankly order of magnitude assessment. In some instances in matters but as a whole, there is 1, 10, 100, anything in between can be attributed to one of them so when I heard that titan tracking was getting halfed I sort of giggled a little since frankly i was thinking that nerf would be an order of magnitude decrese or heck maybe at least half...but no...in their infinite wisdow ccp took it down by a factor of 2...well ya know what TITAN BLOBS ARE STILL GO **** ****.

In any case lets look at a generic tracking titan fit.

[Erebus, Tracking]
Damage Control II
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer

Gist X-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive
Chelm's Modified Cap Recharger
Chelm's Modified Cap Recharger
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed
Federation Navy Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution

Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Aurora Ominae
Selynne's Modified Large EMP Smartbomb

Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II

this is actually my exact erebus fit (yes you can laugh i'm too cheap for faction tracking comps). In any case after skills, implants, bonuses, and tracking enhancers and computers the tracking speed is 0.01243 rad/s, while the non-tracking titan setup is 0.007172 rad/s.
Caldari Citizen20110707
Doomheim
#2212 - 2012-03-15 14:48:42 UTC
Caldari Citizen20110707 wrote:
stuff



Base tracking speed: 0.0054125 rad/s
Skill bonus 25%: 0.0054125*1.25 = 0.006766 rad/s
Ogdin 6%: 0.006766 * 1.06 = 0.007172 rad/s
First TC 30%: 0.007172 * 1.3 = 0.009323 rad/s
Second TC 26%: 0.009323 * 1.26 = 0.011757 rad/s
TE 5.7%: 0.011757 * 1.057 = 0.01243 rad/s

This is in rad/s which roughly translates to 0.71 degrees per second. You can add a non-stackable strong drop booster to this

0.01243 * 1.375 = 0.017091 rad/s --> just under 1 degree per second.

Now we are basically just going to take all of that above and divide by 2...so the new max tracking speed with this fit will be 0.008545m which is a shade under half a degree a second.

Now that we have that figured out lets figure out what the chance to hit is based on tracking speed, range, sig radius and falloff...this is given by the following formula.

http://imageshack.us/f/210/chancetohit.jpg/

this can be straightforward applied to just about any ship using number from EFT...

Here are some DPS graphs for you with limiting scenarios of full transversal with old (red) and new (blue) tracking models

Drake
http://imageshack.us/f/824/drakeb.jpg/
Mael:
http://imageshack.us/f/848/maelstorm.jpg/
abbadon:
http://imageshack.us/f/215/abaddonc.jpg/
cane no mwd:
http://imageshack.us/f/254/canenomwd.jpg/

so cane is the big winner here...titans will still be doing massive dps to battleships however...enough that logi are still unlikely to keep up

With Target painters its pretty much +/- 20sec for all ships

Basicly a tracking Erebus has still a better tracking than a Alpha Maelstrom

For just once, stick you head out your ass ccp, do you math properly, do you fixes properly so you don't have to waste your time to yet another nerf after this announced nerf. Its silly just silly you guys aren't able to implement stuff right the first place and need to fix it by fail nerf after fail nerf.

oh ps; i borrowed this math from -A- forum, made up by makalu zarya, i hope he doesnt mind it.
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2213 - 2012-03-15 14:58:28 UTC
George Holden wrote:
Too bad you can't outrange 1200mm arties, oh wait you can.
Too bad you can't orbit with more than 0.016 rad/sec to beat tracking, oh wait you can.
Too bad you can't drop your fleet out of range or just on top of them, oh wait you can.
Too bad you can't use bombs in nullsec, oh wait you can.

Do I need to go on?

There is no unbeatable fleet doctrine but you might want to turn your brains on before you blap the forums :>



too bad you can't go into a fight without your 30M EHP 8k DPS omnipwnmobile

oh wait, you can't

Please don't go on
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#2214 - 2012-03-15 15:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
+1 for dealing with a real issue...
The only people to blaim is the ones abusing Titans against subcaps aka the Titan owners themself!!

However ccp still need to work out how they will get people to still bring titans to the battle.
2 issues: Titans should help their fleet ON FIELD while at the same time not being a guaranteed cassaulty when fielded.

How about a module to remotely provide another ship a fixed 99% structure resistance for a 5 minute cycle while making the Titan immobile...
How about making titans go into a reinforced mode for 10 minutes when it goes below 95% structure - And let it be immobilized, unable to be targeted, not recharging cap or shield and only capable of locking 1 target at a time with a -50% RoF penalty...

It's important to make sure the titans doesn't **** with everything, but at the same time give them modules to be usefull... Being able to prolong a carrier or comand ships death by 5 minutes could be usefull, but won't make stuff invulnerable because the effect on 1 ship doesn't stack with numbers.
Also making sure a titan is only lost after at least 10 minutes of fighting might give people a reason to use them.
Whatever you end up with make it worth to have a titan without making it impossible to break them down.

Pinky
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2215 - 2012-03-15 16:04:57 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
hakkart wrote:
Cyaron wars wrote:
So my point is any side should have advantage on battlefield as it now (Numbers and technology). So you filed 1000 Drakes which can be countered by 200 Abaddons. Each side should be able to decide what it will bring for a fight - High SP+Expensive ships or less PS but en mass.


You're oversimplifying it. 1000 drakes does not make a fleet. Fleet is all about composition. 1000 drakes would lose HARD to a 500-man fleet with an actual composition, with logis and dictors and recons. . And that's the way it ought to be. A titan blob, on the other hand, stands on its own with no need for support other than supercarriers, which are equally unkillable in large numbers.

Edit before someone puts words in my mouth: The 500-man fleet is mostly drakes.


How are these titans tackling you guys? No chance in hell I would get in point range of one, much less scram and web. Straight


Hahaha. Ok, so you never fought a bunch of titans, we get it.
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2216 - 2012-03-15 16:14:33 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:
you are all missing main point of current game mechanics that is broken.
Every fleet based on numbers has it's counter based on SP and ISK. Bringing 100 rifters with logistics will be countered by bringing 20 vagabonds with less logistics.
So let's assume Fleet A is T1 frigate, Fleet B is Hacs, Fleet C is battleships. So every fleet can be countered by fleet of less size but higher SP, u can always field something that requires less numbers but more SP/ISK and that something will be only like 1 rank higher then hostile fleet .
This is how it looks like: frigs > cruisers > BCs > BS > Capitals > Supercapitals > Titans. Current mechanics is good up intil BS. there is a huuuuuge gap between BS and titan. U can say that capitals are under powered and that's why they are not used or state that titans and supers are overpowered and should be nerfed. In any case this is not solving major issue - Gap between BS and a Titan. Fill that missing point and game become much better.

I've to admit - CCP Sucks in game balance. I remember same way ppl where whining about atlas capitals, so ccp created another ship to counter them. After ppl were whining about supers, now titans. in any case tweaking 1 certain ship will never fix game. If you want to fix something to and review all ships that are affected by tracking titans. I would also say that Signature stuff is kinda bullshit, ship size doesn't change by turning MWD on. So how can missile do more damage to same ship w MWD on and less damage w MWD off?


I have 62mil SP.

If I fit 5 officer sensor boosters on my Drake, should I be able to kill a Titan pilot that has 62mil SP?

Thanks for your insight.
Sentinel Eeex
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2217 - 2012-03-15 16:19:03 UTC
Cyaron wars wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Cyaron wars wrote:


So basically all u say is that every fleet doctrine can be countered. So with proper fleet composition u can **** battleships with ahacs. but if battleships will burn in different directions they will murder ahacs. This is exactly what I want to say. no imagine that on a higher tier. imagine you have fleet of dreads with enough DPS to kill and track battleships out of siege mode. u dield supers to take them out. but then dreads can go to siege and start raping supers if they have enough numbers or ask for suppercap support to counter your super fleet. that's exactly what is missing. that is what I'm trying to say.

There should be no uber ship. Titans atm are viewed from solo point of view. ppl are looking at what 1 titan does instead of looking on it from fleet doctrine perspective and counter them same way. 1 dread will never kill a full fleet of battleships but 100 dreads will. 1 battleship will never alpha hac or cruiser but in numbers they will, same goes for for hacs that will **** battleships, dreads that will **** titansand so on.

Once again stop looking at 1 particular ship. Look at all those ships that are before and after it in tier rank.

Battleship killer - that is what missing in this game. ship with enough tank to adsorb a huge damage comming from number of battleships and enough DPS to bring some of them down before he dies. Titans are the ones that fulfill that role, dreads can be significant replacement to them in this case.


The counter to a blob of titans is a bigger blob of titans. Hence the nerf.



No, counter blob of titan with Sieged dreads (still needs a buff) and support fleet.


Why are you so stupid?
Demonachizer
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2218 - 2012-03-15 16:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Demonachizer
Can someone explain to me in simple terms what is going on here? I played this game years ago and came back recently. I am really confused.

What is a Titan? How do you track? Is this a bad thing that is happening or a good thing? I can't tell because some people seem happy and some unhappy.



QuestionShould I stop playing eve because of this change? I want to be able to do cool stuff when I have more skills and some people seem to be saying that the game is useless now because of this. It is really making me nervous.Question
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2219 - 2012-03-15 16:20:27 UTC
Meh, this thread is worthless. Has been for oh about... 100 pages now. It is literally the same dozen posters making wild accusations, trolling and other nonsense.

For the record, if anyone is looking for any entity to blame for these changes to titans and super carriers, blame CCP. Not the players who used the ships in a specific way. That is like blaming all those pilots who flew Dramiels with this dual prop, medium shield extended fits. This game is full of players who will always find a way to push any ship to the limit of its capability. Given enough time without CCP making adjustments here and there and these issues will always happen.

Again, the fault lies with CCP, not the players. Saying that I really like the new CCP and I am not trying to be harsh on them, just pointing out the facts. NCdot, Raiden and PL will roll with this punch and find something new to combat the mindless blob.

The real shame in all of this is power blocks. Null has been divided into two or three super blocks for how many years now? My point is a lot of ships scale in a severely broken manner. Some ships are balanced when there is only a few on the battlefield, but in a game of players who, with enough time, find the very best way to fit and fly a ship, multiply that by massive numbers and viola... one broken fleet doctrine.

CCP, you need to address the way sov, power projection and intel gather works or you will ALWAYS have ship scaling issues. That is the true root cause of all of this. Many have said on both sides of this fail thread that alone or a couple, titans are balanced. Because this game encourages creating a massive blue list, thus putting all of those titans in one group or any ship (hi maelstroms o/) for that matter it will be one ****** up game.

CCP, is there any blog, post or anything planed for any of that???
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2220 - 2012-03-15 16:22:29 UTC
Demonachizer wrote:
Can someone explain to me in simple terms what is going on here?


Two power blocks swinging their purses at each other pretty much. Nothing new to see really.