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CSM meets CCP Senior Producer Zulu about your concerns

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#381 - 2011-09-13 16:15:27 UTC
Azelor Delaria wrote:


No, we shouldn't. When your defense is, "We're CSM, listen to what we say", there is no reason for us to listen.

.


Except that's the polar opposite of what he actually said. He said that you should look at the CSM's past record of telling the truth in order to judge their current truthfulness.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#382 - 2011-09-13 16:18:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Azelor Delaria wrote:


No, we shouldn't. When your defense is, "We're CSM, listen to what we say", there is no reason for us to listen.

.


Except that's the polar opposite of what he actually said. He said that you should look at the CSM's past record of telling the truth in order to judge their current truthfulness.


Yes, because The Mittani has such a reputation for honesty.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Sumos Tigerclaw
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#383 - 2011-09-13 16:23:08 UTC
Deeds, not words. I wont believe anything CCP or the CSM says, and only half of what they do.

I feel like CCP has been running a scam on us for years. I also feel like I'm being griefed by goons who have taken over the CSM and CPP both.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#384 - 2011-09-13 16:23:51 UTC
Azelor Delaria wrote:
Oh, so you're saying the CSM gets to take credit when in reality, it was the far more than you morons who have done nothing? You piggybacked off the hard work of Helicity, Spank, and others, including myself. You claim you did something "historic" and that you have helped make the game better. Where's the proof?



I don't think anyone really believes the CSM has achieved anything "historic" at this point. Everything is still in the balance. The result of the "emergency summit" was overblown certainly but the fact that CCP didn't deliver a single thing really and the minutes showed they were defending their NeX scheme and still deluded into believing the Incarna CQ rollout was "smooth" just underpins this. So sure, the CSM is due some criticism for getting carried away and "played" by the CCP marketing zombies. But its a learning experience for them as well really. I hope they have learned their lesson and will be FAR tougher this time. The rhetoric coming out of the council recently seems to support this.

Quote:
The July meeting would have happened even if you didn't chime in, because we - the players - said we had enough. Not CSM. You may be players as well, but you are a very small portion of the community. Never, ever forget that.


Sure but WE the players backed down as well on the emergency summit. I had a good idea what I wanted to see from the emergency summit and wasn't entirely happy with the outcome with no fixed timescales or commitments etc but I like thousands of others stopped rioting and decided to let CCP have some time to fix things. Well time went by and we'd taken our eyes off the ball a bit and CCP looked to be sliding back into the bad ways. The release of the emergency minutes showed just what pliable fools we'd been really (Players and CSM both).

So my point is we have some responsibility also for backing off the pressure when the fight had not been won - this is not solely the fault of the CSM.

Quote:
In closing, the CSM - or rather, what the CSM should have been - is a noble idea. However, they seem to pick sheep that are easy to cow into doing what they want. As far as I'm concerned - and many others are as well, if we are to take posts in this thread for what they appear to be - you all are nothing but unpaid spokespeople to keep subscriptions.


Seriously - if they are sheep then they are sheep that we the players choose when we elect them. That is not a responsibility we can shirk either. But I don't think the CSM is sheep to be honest, I think they (like we) wanted to trust what CCP told them and believe that everything was going to be alright. They (like we) are now waking up to the reality that unless we all fight hard for this game we love then its going down the drain to the delusionary chants of mindless MT folly and critical under-resourcing of core gameplay.

Its time to fight for this game we love together and quit the backbiting.

CSM is just players like us at the end of the day.
Players we elect.
Players accountable to us.

Lets not forget that.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#385 - 2011-09-13 16:44:18 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Azelor Delaria wrote:


No, we shouldn't. When your defense is, "We're CSM, listen to what we say", there is no reason for us to listen.

.


Except that's the polar opposite of what he actually said. He said that you should look at the CSM's past record of telling the truth in order to judge their current truthfulness.


Yes, because The Mittani has such a reputation for honesty.


So what's your theory? That mittens has hypnotised the other CSM members with his super mind-powers and now they agree with everything he says?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#386 - 2011-09-13 19:47:30 UTC
Quote:
We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA.


all said; usless thread with more empty promises..
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#387 - 2011-09-13 20:01:33 UTC
tika te wrote:
Quote:
We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA.


all said; usless thread with more empty promises..


So what should they do? Have these meetings and then not bother telling anyone about it? Keep it a secret?

Why the hostility to them keeping us updated as they do the work they were elected for? I just don't understand it, unless it's a childish sulky "I want it all NOW!" reaction. Are people under the impression that the CSM can (or ought to be able to) Make Everything Better Forever™ in one meeting?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#388 - 2011-09-13 20:25:21 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
tika te wrote:
Quote:
We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA.


all said; usless thread with more empty promises..


So what should they do? Have these meetings and then not bother telling anyone about it? Keep it a secret?

Why the hostility to them keeping us updated as they do the work they were elected for? I just don't understand it, unless it's a childish sulky "I want it all NOW!" reaction. Are people under the impression that the CSM can (or ought to be able to) Make Everything Better Forever™ in one meeting?


Uh, yes, they are.

I don't get the hostility either. Would you guys really rather we had said nothing at all? It doesn't seem to be clear to some folks that those are the two options.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#389 - 2011-09-13 20:32:07 UTC
Two step wrote:

Uh, yes, they are.

I don't get the hostility either. Would you guys really rather we had said nothing at all? It doesn't seem to be clear to some folks that those are the two options.



No we prefer if it you say something substantial

We have heared all the rest before, several times, it no longer impresses.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#390 - 2011-09-13 20:38:52 UTC
Two step wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
tika te wrote:
Quote:
We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA.


all said; usless thread with more empty promises..


So what should they do? Have these meetings and then not bother telling anyone about it? Keep it a secret?

Why the hostility to them keeping us updated as they do the work they were elected for? I just don't understand it, unless it's a childish sulky "I want it all NOW!" reaction. Are people under the impression that the CSM can (or ought to be able to) Make Everything Better Forever™ in one meeting?


Uh, yes, they are.

I don't get the hostility either. Would you guys really rather we had said nothing at all? It doesn't seem to be clear to some folks that those are the two options.


Speaking personally I appreciate the communication and the efforts you guys have gone too - I know from experience that CSM done well is a time-consuming and exhausting business. Only thing I'd caution is don't let up on the pressure at this point - and don't take empty promises and pie in the sky "soon(tm)" status as anything of value - we need hard commitments and timescales and a radically-increased resource provision for the core game.

Keep up the pressure on CCP and I'll keep doing my part to support you.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#391 - 2011-09-13 20:40:29 UTC
Two step wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
tika te wrote:
Quote:
We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA.


all said; usless thread with more empty promises..


So what should they do? Have these meetings and then not bother telling anyone about it? Keep it a secret?

Why the hostility to them keeping us updated as they do the work they were elected for? I just don't understand it, unless it's a childish sulky "I want it all NOW!" reaction. Are people under the impression that the CSM can (or ought to be able to) Make Everything Better Forever™ in one meeting?


Uh, yes, they are.

I don't get the hostility either. Would you guys really rather we had said nothing at all? It doesn't seem to be clear to some folks that those are the two options.


I, personally, would rather not know about some vague meeting in which you claim you brought up "several" things bothering the community-at-large, yet hide behind the NDA and say you can't tell us what was mentioned.

How is mentioning what you talked about with regards to what you claim are the "concerns" of those posting here NDA material? I mean, seriously. Did you guys talk about trade secrets? I think having a discussion - especially one where, and I'm quoting CCP Zulu on this:

CCP Zulu wrote:
They are right in saying that nothing of detailed substance was said during the meeting--however there was apparently enough vague substance to convince them that the next meeting should be promising indeed.


If nothing of significant detail was talked about, then why does it fall under the NDA? My theory: our "concerns" were not talked about. I think it's a fair belief that you have not attempted to talk to CCP about our concerns, and instead brought to them your concerns.

But hey, what do I know? I wasn't there. I don't know what was talked about. And the NDA will just make sure none of us do, even in a week when you come back and say, "So this is what we talked about at this meeting, none of us can be sure it was talked about. Because the "public transcripts" became minutes when CCP realized they need to keep us shoveling out money.
raker
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#392 - 2011-09-13 20:43:14 UTC


Hehe

This is a no brainer

I was allied CinC in WWll Online, being such a high rank I had daily chats with game developers and of course I was told things that could not be passed on to the playerbase

Thier will always be ppl that will never be happy about NDA's, but they are standard

The point is that all the CSM have made it clear to CCP, that thier has been a lack of Fis content in the last expansions, CCP have reacted faster and thier has been a meeting

Now, I don't think for a moment that all the CSM would go back to the playerbase and "keep them quiet" , not when you look at the press releases that came from the CSM on this issue, esp mittani

CCP must of signalled some kind Fis expansion or at least part expansion to keep the CSM happy or I feel they would of just told the press that CCP aint playing ball and put more pressure on CCP

So, I know it suxs, but its just a case of wait and see, lets see what the winter expansion brings or what info CCP release

If it turns out that the CSM are full of S***, then they will pay the price at the next election and CCP will pay the price thro a further loss of subs

Its time to have some faith in the CSM, and wait and watch to see what CCP actually does
Temulkar Blaine
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#393 - 2011-09-13 20:49:23 UTC
Two step wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
tika te wrote:
Quote:
We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA.


all said; usless thread with more empty promises..


So what should they do? Have these meetings and then not bother telling anyone about it? Keep it a secret?

Why the hostility to them keeping us updated as they do the work they were elected for? I just don't understand it, unless it's a childish sulky "I want it all NOW!" reaction. Are people under the impression that the CSM can (or ought to be able to) Make Everything Better Forever™ in one meeting?


Uh, yes, they are.

I don't get the hostility either. Would you guys really rather we had said nothing at all? It doesn't seem to be clear to some folks that those are the two options.


Then your completly missing the point arent you. This is not hostility its apathy and disillusion towards a process of blah blah that most people have absolutly no faith in. July achieved absolutly nothing. Comments like this CSM is going to achieve more than previous ones at this moment in time are as delusional as any $1000 dollar jeans comment.

If the CSM were doing such a great job at representing players disatisfaction and CCP were listening then sub numbers and players online wouldnt be dropping faster than a hookers panties.

Personally CSM would have been better served carrying on with this press campaign and keeping the pressure up rather than entering yet more meaningless dialogue! CSM only called you in to stop that campaign, who do you think is laughing into their rotten shark?

come back to the community with roadmaps, devblogs, dates, somthing tangible and youll get a better response.
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#394 - 2011-09-13 20:58:56 UTC
Temulkar Blaine wrote:
Then your completly missing the point arent you. This is not hostility its apathy and disillusion towards a process of blah blah that most people have absolutly no faith in. July achieved absolutly nothing. Comments like this CSM is going to achieve more than previous ones at this moment in time are as delusional as any $1000 dollar jeans comment.

If the CSM were doing such a great job at representing players disatisfaction and CCP were listening then sub numbers and players online wouldnt be dropping faster than a hookers panties.

Personally CSM would have been better served carrying on with this press campaign and keeping the pressure up rather than entering yet more meaningless dialogue! CSM only called you in to stop that campaign, who do you think is laughing into their rotten shark?

come back to the community with roadmaps, devblogs, dates, somthing tangible and youll get a better response.


This is a wise man.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#395 - 2011-09-13 21:06:12 UTC
Azelor Delaria wrote:
Two step wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
tika te wrote:
Quote:
We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA.


all said; usless thread with more empty promises..


So what should they do? Have these meetings and then not bother telling anyone about it? Keep it a secret?

Why the hostility to them keeping us updated as they do the work they were elected for? I just don't understand it, unless it's a childish sulky "I want it all NOW!" reaction. Are people under the impression that the CSM can (or ought to be able to) Make Everything Better Forever™ in one meeting?


Uh, yes, they are.

I don't get the hostility either. Would you guys really rather we had said nothing at all? It doesn't seem to be clear to some folks that those are the two options.


I, personally, would rather not know about some vague meeting in which you claim you brought up "several" things bothering the community-at-large, yet hide behind the NDA and say you can't tell us what was mentioned.

How is mentioning what you talked about with regards to what you claim are the "concerns" of those posting here NDA material? I mean, seriously. Did you guys talk about trade secrets? I think having a discussion - especially one where, and I'm quoting CCP Zulu on this:



Well don't read the damb post then. Some of us do like to be kept informed of details; there's no one forcing you to read or care about minor updates if all you care about are the major updates.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#396 - 2011-09-13 21:48:04 UTC
Sigras wrote:
as I read this thread, I see more and more that there is nothing that will make you guys happy; I understand and think its reasonable that people are upset, i mean Im upset too, but I understand as a programmer and a gamer that things take time

I keep reading things like "patch notes or GTFO" and I ask myself what do you want them to do? materialize thousands of hours of play testing and code out of nowhere? Im also of the opinion that we'll wait and see what CCP comes up with but the operative word in that position is WAIT.

Id rather wait 3 months and see what CCP comes out with, then if they fail I have a legitimate reason for being pissed off. the problem with most of you is you wont remember this thread or your problems in 3 months.


This. I'm totally on the side of "CCP need to pull their finger out of their arse and set EVE to higher priority", but my god, when I read some of the asinine, bleating, whining comments on this thread ...
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#397 - 2011-09-13 21:50:29 UTC
Ciar Meara wrote:
Two step wrote:

Uh, yes, they are.

I don't get the hostility either. Would you guys really rather we had said nothing at all? It doesn't seem to be clear to some folks that those are the two options.



No we prefer if it you say something substantial

We have heared all the rest before, several times, it no longer impresses.


As we all have said several times, that is *NOT* an option. We signed an agreement with CCP, we cannot make the details public without their permission. Your two options are:
1) We say nothing
2) We say what we did

There isn't some mythical 3rd choice here that we are not choosing to spite you.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#398 - 2011-09-13 21:52:26 UTC
Two step wrote:

There isn't some mythical 3rd choice here that we are not choosing to spite you.


Mittens hypnotised you into not disclosing the mythical 3rd choice just admit it

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#399 - 2011-09-13 21:56:33 UTC
Azelor Delaria wrote:
I, personally, would rather not know about some vague meeting in which you claim you brought up "several" things bothering the community-at-large, yet hide behind the NDA and say you can't tell us what was mentioned.

How is mentioning what you talked about with regards to what you claim are the "concerns" of those posting here NDA material? I mean, seriously. Did you guys talk about trade secrets? I think having a discussion - especially one where, and I'm quoting CCP Zulu on this:

CCP Zulu wrote:
They are right in saying that nothing of detailed substance was said during the meeting--however there was apparently enough vague substance to convince them that the next meeting should be promising indeed.



Firstly, that isn't from Zulu, that is from CCP Manifest. Secondly, the NDA is not restricted to trade secrets only. You have mentioned this several times in this thread. Since you don't seem to be getting this, I will quote directly from the NDA:

CSM NDA wrote:

Subject to the limitations set forth in Paragraph 2, all information disclosed to the other party shall be deemed to be "Proprietary Information." In particular, Proprietary Information shall be deemed to include any trade secret, marketing, servicing, financing or personnel matter relating to the disclosing party, its present or future products, sales or its business, the identity of any suppliers, clients, customers, business associates, employees or investors, whether in oral, written, graphic or electronic form.


Quote:

If nothing of significant detail was talked about, then why does it fall under the NDA? My theory: our "concerns" were not talked about. I think it's a fair belief that you have not attempted to talk to CCP about our concerns, and instead brought to them your concerns.

But hey, what do I know? I wasn't there. I don't know what was talked about. And the NDA will just make sure none of us do, even in a week when you come back and say, "So this is what we talked about at this meeting, none of us can be sure it was talked about. Because the "public transcripts" became minutes when CCP realized they need to keep us shoveling out money.


The key word there is "detailed". Just because we didn't get into details doesn't mean it isn't covered by the NDA.

It seems clear to me at least that you have your own crazy conspiracy theories to uphold here, and aren't actually listening to what I am saying. You might try giving that a shot.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#400 - 2011-09-13 21:59:42 UTC
There is hope in this tread i like it.

Power to the people on both sides(unfortunately) for making a start in the right direction imho.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard