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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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S McKellop
Ellipsis Holding
Ellipsis.
#1761 - 2012-03-12 15:24:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
S McKellop wrote:
So on this day. I will get out of bed. Log into Eve. I will find that I cannot fly a BC, BS, Carrier, Dread, or Super.
…and you've come to this conclusion, how, exactly?



Because it says in plain english that you need ___racial____ Battlecruiser to L4 before you can train __racial___ battleship. Racial BS is a requirement for capitals.

that is all
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#1762 - 2012-03-12 15:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Creat Posudol
S McKellop wrote:
Tippia wrote:
S McKellop wrote:
So on this day. I will get out of bed. Log into Eve. I will find that I cannot fly a BC, BS, Carrier, Dread, or Super.
…and you've come to this conclusion, how, exactly?



Because it says in plain english that you need ___racial____ Battlecruiser to L4 before you can train __racial___ battleship. Racial BS is a requirement for capitals.

that is all

Can you fly them now?

if yes: you will be able to fly them afterwards

if no: why on earth would you be able to fly them afterwards if you can't do so now?

for more explanation: read the first post and it's links. It's not hard. This is almost page 90. You didn't expect someone official to have clarified some stuff by now? Seriously... READ!

Edit: just to be clear, the part you are complaining about is explained in the devblog! Go read that again as well, this time pay attention...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1763 - 2012-03-12 15:50:52 UTC
S McKellop wrote:
Tippia wrote:
S McKellop wrote:
So on this day. I will get out of bed. Log into Eve. I will find that I cannot fly a BC, BS, Carrier, Dread, or Super.
…and you've come to this conclusion, how, exactly?

Because it says in plain english that you need ___racial____ Battlecruiser to L4 before you can train __racial___ battleship. Racial BS is a requirement for capitals.

that is all
…to train them, yes. Do you need them to fly the ships in question? No.
Do you already have the skills required to fly the ships in question? Yes.
So can you fly the ships? Yes.

This change doesn't affect what you can and cannot fly (except for the BCs, but they're going to give you the skills required to fly what you already can fly, so that's a non-issue) — it changes what you can train, and you don't need to train anything.

So no, you will get out of bed, log into EVE, find that you can fly BS, Carrier, Dread or Super regardless of what your skills in BCs or Destroyers are, just like now, and you will find that you can fly BCs and Destroyers just as well as before as well.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1764 - 2012-03-12 15:52:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Katy Ling wrote:
S CCP Ytterbium wrote:

... lowering the Covetor's Mining Barge requirement from 5 to 4 ...


that sounds like a very wise chance, as for years, players have looked how ridiculous it looked, to have such a small training time difference betwin the Covetor and the T2 Hulk

how about Astrogeology down from 5 to 4 too ?


This way the minning barges retriever and covetor would get too close.

Also the first mining barge is useless compared to the retriever. so you guys could reduce the requirements for it, i mean, you could remove the Industry 5 prerequisite from the mining barges skill and place it as a secondary or tertiary requirement for the mining barges. this would ballance things.

Proposal:

Procurer: ( 3d 12h - from- 8d 8h)
Mining Barge:1
Astrogeology:3
Science:4
Minning:4
Industry: 3 (Down from 5, about 5 days reduction in training for this ship, making it useful for starters to use.)

Retriever: (11d 16h)
Mining Barges:3
Astrogeology:4
Science:4
Minning:4
Industry: 5

Covetor: ( 29d 18h -from- 49d 6h)
Mining Barges:4 ( Down from 5, making it an option before hulk)
Astrogeology:5
Science:4
Minning:4
Industry: 5

Skiff: (50d 4h)
Mackinaw: (50d 4h)
Hulk: (51d 1h)

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1765 - 2012-03-12 15:59:22 UTC
Main reason a Procurer isn't used.

Most people have trained up Racial Cruiser. And use their mining cruiser till they get a Retriever. After all, it provides a better yield, while allowing for a little defense against rats.

Procurer is pretty much a useless boat.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#1766 - 2012-03-12 18:27:54 UTC
Pallidum Treponema wrote:
For a new player:

Drake: 3 skills (current scheme) vs 4 skills (new scheme) - 33% increase in skills.
+Hurricane: 5 skills vs 8 skills - 60% increase in skills required.
+Harbringer: 7 skills vs 12 skills - 71% increase in skills required.
+Myrmidon: 9 skills vs 16 skills - 78% increase in skills required!

Effectively, you're almost doubling the amount of skills a new player will have to train in order to crosstrain.

Additionally, you're removing one of the big incentives for crosstraining, namely if I train up two skills, I get access to a whole new range of ships for free! Training racial frigate and cruiser, two skills that can be trained in a short amount of time, would give a new player access to battlecruiser at whatever level they had battlecruisers trained to before.

Under this scheme, crosstraining for another race instead becomes a chore.

This is inherently new player UNFRIENDLY, as well as being excessively annoying for veteran players.



Seems to me like that more newer players will make training decisions that they find themselves regretting.

I understand the simplifiying of tiers to help you balance ships.

I don't really understand why forcing racial battlecruiser skills simplifies anything.

Why must that be done ?.. its just going to make it harder for newer players to decide they want to fly different ships after 6 months of training .. at a fairly important point in their game commitment.

Also, aren't there already bonuses from getting cruiser v in a race ? when flyining that races BC ? it isn't entirely irrelevant now, and on top of that, there is already speicialized training incentives for types of weapons etc.

I'm not really getting why it needs to be changed.

Just becaues it makes it more consistant doesn't make it better.

How about get rid of battlecruiser skills all together and make it take cruiser V to fly a BC ?

.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1767 - 2012-03-12 18:33:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
Pallidum Treponema wrote:
For a new player:

Drake: 3 skills (current scheme) vs 4 skills (new scheme) - 33% increase in skills.
+Hurricane: 5 skills vs 8 skills - 60% increase in skills required.
+Harbringer: 7 skills vs 12 skills - 71% increase in skills required.
+Myrmidon: 9 skills vs 16 skills - 78% increase in skills required!

Effectively, you're almost doubling the amount of skills a new player will have to train in order to crosstrain.

Additionally, you're removing one of the big incentives for crosstraining, namely if I train up two skills, I get access to a whole new range of ships for free! Training racial frigate and cruiser, two skills that can be trained in a short amount of time, would give a new player access to battlecruiser at whatever level they had battlecruisers trained to before.

Under this scheme, crosstraining for another race instead becomes a chore.

This is inherently new player UNFRIENDLY, as well as being excessively annoying for veteran players.



Seems to me like that more newer players will make training decisions that they find themselves regretting.

I understand the simplifiying of tiers to help you balance ships.

I don't really understand why forcing racial battlecruiser skills simplifies anything.

Why must that be done ?.. its just going to make it harder for newer players to decide they want to fly different ships after 6 months of training .. at a fairly important point in their game commitment.

Also, aren't there already bonuses from getting cruiser v in a race ? when flyining that races BC ? it isn't entirely irrelevant now, and on top of that, there is already speicialized training incentives for types of weapons etc.

I'm not really getting why it needs to be changed.

Just becaues it makes it more consistant doesn't make it better.

How about get rid of battlecruiser skills all together and make it take cruiser V to fly a BC ?


Focused training, wise skill planning, tree = pretty

FOTM chasing, easy and cheap cross training, poor planning, fire = bad

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1768 - 2012-03-12 18:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
I understand the simplifiying of tiers to help you balance ships.

I don't really understand why forcing racial battlecruiser skills simplifies anything.
They're not simplifying the tiers — they're removing them because they impose pointless restrictions on what the ships can do.

The racial BC/destroyer skills are not so much about simplifying things as about making them consistent (which, granted, is a simplification of sorts too). The simplification effort lies more in the T2 role skills and ensuring that you don't need a bunch of largely unrelated other-sized role skills to get into a ship you want.

Quote:
Also, aren't there already bonuses from getting cruiser v in a race ? when flyining that races BC ?
No.

Quote:
How about get rid of battlecruiser skills all together and make it take cruiser V to fly a BC ?
That would do the exact opposite of what they want. One of the reasons they splitting the BC skill is that it unlocks too much. Shifting it to Cruiser V just creates both the old problem and the new one that people are complaining about: one skill unlocks too much, and it also takes ages to train.

Requiring Cruiser V for BCs is even less newbie- and cross-training-friendly than having racial destroyer and cruiser prereqs.
Old Religion
Khanid Vanguard
#1769 - 2012-03-12 19:19:26 UTC
This is a load o F**king s**t yet again your p***ing all over the older pilots making it easyer for the new one's Twisted
Maplefox
Black-Watch Corporation
Malicious Mineral Hounds
#1770 - 2012-03-12 19:38:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Maplefox
Yeah, okay this kinda looks stupid - sorry to say that some of the things like AUR were obnoxious, as was nerfing some of the ships but that's whatever - that happens all the time. Speaking for myself, and hopefully others - this is probably the stupidest and most destructive idea that could be implemented into EVE, thousands of capsuleers are happy what they are flying at the moment -
The whole issue about changing battle cruiser skills into seperate ones is gonna cause a lot of stress for those of us who already own and fly Canes, Harbingers, Prophecies, whatever. I see no logical explanation for this notion of changing how skills work. People have worked for years to get where they were - we don't need CCP to f*ck sh!t up for them, for us. We worked for our fits and our skills - why in god's toilet must you take it all away.

We play your game, we pay for it, I doubt anyone in game asked for this to be considered. There should be a friggen vote whether or not capsuleers feel this would be benefitial or not because I see no reason to change something that has been working for over 7 years?

I hope CCP reads these comments because honestly - bleh there's no way to explain how I feel about this.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1771 - 2012-03-12 19:52:12 UTC
Fact: CCP reads this thread more closely than 90% of you people read the devblog + much related CCP replies.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1772 - 2012-03-12 19:55:40 UTC
Maplefox wrote:

The whole issue about changing battle cruiser skills into seperate ones is gonna cause a lot of stress for those of us who already own and fly Canes, Harbingers, Prophecies, whatever.


If you get all racial skills to V if you have BC V, how is this going to cause any stress?

Maplefox wrote:
I see no logical explanation for this notion of changing how skills work. People have worked for years to get where they were - we don't need CCP to f*ck sh!t up for them, for us. We worked for our fits and our skills - why in god's toilet must you take it all away.

Where is it stated that anything will be taken away from you? If you get all racial skills to V if you have BC V, how is this going to f*ck sh!t up?

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1773 - 2012-03-12 19:57:20 UTC
Old Religion wrote:
This is a load o F**king s**t yet again your p***ing all over the older pilots making it easyer for the new one's Twisted

Older pilots with BC V will get Racial BC V. Free SP for older players, more training for new players. Please elaborate on your reasons for rage.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Maplefox
Black-Watch Corporation
Malicious Mineral Hounds
#1774 - 2012-03-12 19:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Maplefox
they would take away battlecruiser skills from you and give you points to allocate it to a specific race of battlecruiser;
Amarr BC, Caldari BC, Minmitar BC, Gallente BC.. etc. and not everyone has BC V ~
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1775 - 2012-03-12 20:04:16 UTC
Maplefox wrote:
they would take away battlecruiser skills from you and give you points to allocate it to a specific race of battlecruiser;
Amarr BC, Caldari BC, Minmitar BC, Gallente BC.. etc. and not everyone has BC V ~

I think it has only been said a few hundred times or so, but I'll repeat.
"If you could fly it yesterday, you can fly it tomorrow"

And where did you read a CCP statement that they will reimburse SP and let you allocate to only one race?
Please quote.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1776 - 2012-03-12 20:07:40 UTC
Maplefox wrote:
they would take away battlecruiser skills from you and give you points to allocate it to a specific race of battlecruiser;
Amarr BC, Caldari BC, Minmitar BC, Gallente BC.. etc. and not everyone has BC V ~

Before requesting CCP read and consider your opinions please do them the favor of reading the replies they've already made regarding skill point compensation and take the time to understand what they have proposed.
Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1777 - 2012-03-12 20:49:10 UTC
Well glad to see that 70 some odd pages later people are still not reading...

CCP just go ahead and make another dev blog so everyone can stop the panic and absolute hissy fits.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1778 - 2012-03-12 21:08:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Reaching 90 pages?! Treadnought FTW!!!

Go ahead CCP! Bring the changes!!!! Start with the rokie ships! If noone complain about the tier removal and skills reimbursement than you can DO it with the rest!!!! LOL

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1779 - 2012-03-12 21:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Temmu Guerra wrote:
Well glad to see that 70 some odd pages later people are still not reading...

CCP just go ahead and make another dev blog so everyone can stop the panic and absolute hissy fits.


If they did people would...

A: Not bother reading it either.

B: Not understand what they read, or alternatively try to twist it to the worst what if scenario possible.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1780 - 2012-03-12 21:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
It would be cool if CCP had graphs of what skills are being trained. I would love to see the BC spike on that graph :3
I must admit, I am training BC V atm. I just figured wth; gonna have to train it some day, might as well do it now.

Can't be arsed to train up for Amarr BC tho. Gallente/Minmatar will do

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}