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What I see here isn't really proposing one frustrating thing, it's proposing one thing that makes the ugly ducklings find their lost swan siblings and another thing that is kind of infuriating because it doesn't really seem to make any sense.

Ship roles balance on a triangle of defense, offense and mobility to help "lesser" T1s pull their weight in the valuable minerals that have otherwise been wasted on them is a wonderful idea. I'd love to see the Bantams and the Scythes matter for once.

That digs deeply here is the arguable necessity in restructuring the way we train (as in, wait) to use non tech-1 ships. If we're going for homogeneity, it would be practical to the players to eliminate racial training entirely. What isn't practical is dictating a place for things the players have already long decided.

However, if we're going to go with racial specialization, please at least make Racial Destroyer a 1x skill and Racial Battlecruiser a 2x or 3x skill. These ships really are just frigate +1 or cruiser +1, they still rely on small and medium sized rigs and modules (with the exception of BC3s) and their prices scale up fairly well with their fittings.

I have to say this statement genuinely sums up something I truly don't understand. How is it that we've made the association that time sinks = intelligence. In the case of capitol ships, what is it that is expected to happen during the ~25 days of BS V to make a pilot more competent, that wouldn't happen during the time they had to train all the other prerequisites associated with flying those ships? In the case of command ships, time to get them in more than one race is increasing, isn't it? If that is the case I'm not sure what the issue is there.

I must be wrong regarding the prerequisites for BC's, but i thought they required cruiser 3 of the respective race to pilot, so for a ferox one would have to have Caldari Cruiser 3 which required Caldari Frigate 4 anyways. So, were I designing the system I'd provide the racial BC skills at the level the BC skill was trained to for each race a person had cruiser 3 in. Last I read and understood one may get all 4, but I'd have to double check as I don't recall specific clarification on that point. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I dont like the BC and destroyer skill changes. For various reasons but i also think it will discourage people from trying other races and different play styles which brings me on to my main bug bear (and forcing people to train destroyers when there is only 1 per race is just daft).

While balancing is never easy and some ships are used to a lesser or greater extent that is always going to be the case as different play styles (influenced by mechanics, lag and so on) become more or less popular. The changes will not stop this happening even if they go through however they may reduce the degree to which it happens and that in fact points to stagnation for the game which is a bad thing. The change will also make all the races to a larger extent much more homogeneous again something that is not good. Finally it destroys the creativity in pvp EVE. Occasionally people will take mediocre ships and make them work in new ways. Something that is fun and challenging and is best seen in the alliance tournament (which is admittedly like conducting a drug test in a lab vs in real world trials).

Don't make the game bland and predictable.

Chaos must rule

/sign

If I wanted predictable I'd be playing WOW or TOR. OK, so smart bombing drakes and disco beam canes are unlikely, and probably stupid... but you never know... all depends on how they are used and the ingenuity of the pilot. I've seen stranger killmails!

Bolded where you aren't getting it. You say it is a good idea, therefore it must be? Again, this is your opinion, and mine differs. Neither is objectively true, still just subjectively true to each of us. You continue to "insinuate" that your favorable opinion of the changes means they are inherently good.

"my new choices" what are you talking about? I amd not introducing anything new. Instead I'm arguing against most of the proposed changes, except for the proposed replacing of the tiers with roles, which has been a long existing request on the threads (notice I didn't say majority request), and the proposed racial destroyer and BC skills are fine as they will actually increase overall sp investment in order to progress. It seems this is important to Tippia, to force choices to be made, fine. But removing skill reqs for some tech II and captial ships is a mistake, imo. Easy goals are not necessarilly better. What has been Eve's strength is the quest, not the summiting.

As to the person who says what's one 30 day train for BS 5 matter (sorry tired of creating another tab and quoting). Well you see, it's not just the 30 days. It is the perception of difficulty. If that goes then way too many people become focused on Titan or bust. Regardless, every diminution, no matter it's size in the totality of training time, just makes the supercap proliferation problem worse.

You made me lol, thanks :p

CCP is about to make one of the most common mistakes that game developers on MMO's are doing, but unike a handflull of them they think they ought too cause time has cought up with them. Rebalancing ships my big shiny greek Buttweiser.

You find cyclones scythe's desies and the lot obsolete? Yes they are. But they are part of a history that served us and served us well. Eve has a privillege only a handfull of MMO's has ever had. It matured, so did its content and so do its players. There is no need to rebalance an old cyclone to give it some more use. Its time is over, let people fly it like an old car model is driven.

We got the right to preserve what is a nearly 10 year history. Out with new Tiers and let us choose what we like.

Dont take my word cause i say it, HILMAR did as well. In last or overlast fanfest a player asked him if it is possible to make eve items more basic and condensed cause he was against the plethora of items in game. Hilmar replied that the tools are given for players to use and we choose-vote for out items by choosing or neglecting an item. True sandbox.

But.... you want to give old hulls a new polish right? OK here it is how i think it should be done.

e.g, a Cyclone. Players should have the right to take the basic hull and send it over to an NPC corporation that will enchance it slightly on certain fileds. Brutors would give it some more gunpower. Creodron some more drone cababilities. Sisters of EvE some more cargo etc. Make some of these echancements stackable up to a degree, make the ship unsellable and make it unique in a way. Make it smt like a new F16 block 52 adv. Same hull as the 1976 F16 but with new capabilities. Good and better cyclone but under no circumstance a better ship then a tier 2 or tier 3 ship. Its time has passed.

If we dont respect the fact that in our universe old and obsolete ships are rare yet here to show to new players how it was in the good old days we miss th chance to point out a simple fact that no other game in my humble opinion can with the same degree.

To show to new players we got roots, we got history and by stickign around you are participating into a better eve. So lets roll out these tier 4 BC's and tier 2 desies and let the older models become obslete. It is NOT a condition. It is a rightfully earned privillege of Ageing. Let them age with grace and respect them by letting them as they are.

They served, and served us well.

In response to your not being sure why the noted concern:

There is a certain sense of acute gratification from building an extremely focused character.

If you've built a specialized single race alt or two over several years both as functional characters and in particular as exercises in execution...you've completely ruined the lengthy focus and effort invested in the character once an off-race specific skill is added to the sheet. it's a bit like throwing the entire character 'concept' out the window.

If you want examples of this take a look at my accounts & characters.

I'll likewise add it's for this same precise reason, i'd love to be able to strictly train "pirate faction" Frigate, Cruiser & Battleship skills without cross-racial skill requirements to fly 'em. For instance, i'd love to build a true pirate starter character that can only fly angel ships without access to Minmatar / Gallente. If you wish to balance this with more/less training time, cost of skill books, etc... That'd be fine, run with whatever works for balance.

Why not make all of the ship skills (frigate, destroyer, cruiser, battle cruiser, battleship, carrier, dreadnaught, etc) generic and have the racial skills (amarr, caldari, gallente, and minmatar starship command) complementary. If you're worried about skill point allocation you could divide up the racial flavors into starship command, advanced starship command (for tech2 and tech3), and capital starship command.