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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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Simvastatin Montelukast
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#1481 - 2012-03-08 13:56:49 UTC
75 pages.

Is there anyway to get an updated Dev blog? or make the first page full of Dev updates, comments?

Thank you
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1482 - 2012-03-08 13:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
Oh, and please help me, what is bad about "having access to too many hulls by training one skill"?
I can't accept that argument, since you could also use it to introduce racial T2 ship skills.
Hence, your argumentation is inconsistent.

The devil's in the details… Blink

T2 ship skills allow you access to any hulls — they just unlock special versions of hulls you can already fly. If you train Caldari Cruiser, you gain access to the Osprey, Blackbird, Caracal and Moa hulls. If you train Logistics, you gain access to absolutely nothing. However, if you train Caldari Cruiser and Logistics, you gain access to the Osprey hull and its Basilisk variant.

It's all in the theoretical bit at the end: ships are basically slotted into a big matrix of hulls and roles, with the T1 skills deciding which hulls you can use and the T2 skills deciding what specialities you've unlocked.
Kata Amentis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1483 - 2012-03-08 14:04:19 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Funny, I got somebody suggesting the very same idea regarding destroyers having a fleet defense role to me during lunch P*insert tinfoil hat theory here*


One of the devs started a thread a while back (could even be a year or two now Shocked) asking for ideas for "non combat / utility" destroyer sized roles... might be worth a look at.

Come to think of it, it was shortly before the Noctis was released... which was suspicious as the most common idea was a dedicated salvage hull.

My googlefu is failing me on finding it to link though Sad

Curiosity killed the Kata... ... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count.
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#1484 - 2012-03-08 14:06:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
Oh, and please help me, what is bad about "having access to too many hulls by training one skill"?
I can't accept that argument, since you could also use it to introduce racial T2 ship skills.
Hence, your argumentation is inconsistent.

The devil's in the details… Blink

T2 ship skills allow you access to any hulls — they just unlock special versions of hulls you can already fly. If you train Caldari Cruiser, you gain access to the Osprey, Blackbird, Caracal and Moa hulls. If you train Logistics, you gain access to absolutely nothing. However, if you train Caldari Cruiser and Logistics, you gain access to the Osprey hull and its Basilisk variant.

It's all in the theoretical bit at the end: ships are basically slotted into a big matrix of hulls and roles, with the T1 skills deciding which hulls you can use and the T2 skills deciding what specialities you've unlocked.


Thx, Tippia
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1485 - 2012-03-08 14:06:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
Oh, and please help me, what is bad about "having access to too many hulls by training one skill"?
I can't accept that argument, since you could also use it to introduce racial T2 ship skills.
Hence, your argumentation is inconsistent.

The devil's in the details… Blink

T2 ship skills allow you access to any hulls — they just unlock special versions of hulls you can already fly. If you train Caldari Cruiser, you gain access to the Osprey, Blackbird, Caracal and Moa hulls. If you train Logistics, you gain access to absolutely nothing. However, if you train Caldari Cruiser and Logistics, you gain access to the Osprey hull and its Basilisk variant.

It's all in the theoretical bit at the end: ships are basically slotted into a big matrix of hulls and roles, with the T1 skills deciding which hulls you can use and the T2 skills deciding what specialities you've unlocked.


That is exactly how the Battlecruisers and Destroyers skills work.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1486 - 2012-03-08 14:08:52 UTC
Andski wrote:
That is exactly how the Battlecruisers and Destroyers skills work.
…except that they do unlock hulls, unlike the T2 skills.
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#1487 - 2012-03-08 14:10:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanessa Vansen
Andski wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
Oh, and please help me, what is bad about "having access to too many hulls by training one skill"?
I can't accept that argument, since you could also use it to introduce racial T2 ship skills.
Hence, your argumentation is inconsistent.

The devil's in the details… Blink

T2 ship skills allow you access to any hulls — they just unlock special versions of hulls you can already fly. If you train Caldari Cruiser, you gain access to the Osprey, Blackbird, Caracal and Moa hulls. If you train Logistics, you gain access to absolutely nothing. However, if you train Caldari Cruiser and Logistics, you gain access to the Osprey hull and its Basilisk variant.

It's all in the theoretical bit at the end: ships are basically slotted into a big matrix of hulls and roles, with the T1 skills deciding which hulls you can use and the T2 skills deciding what specialities you've unlocked.


That is exactly how the Battlecruisers and Destroyers skills work.


Well, I just hope that if they do that racial destroyer (and battlecruiser) skill, they will at least introduce more destroyer hull!
Having to train one skill providing access to a hull class with one T1 ship per race only to get on to cruisers is really a very bad idea!

But hey that's the way CCP Ytterbium wants to go as it seems.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1488 - 2012-03-08 14:11:55 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
Oh, and please help me, what is bad about "having access to too many hulls by training one skill"?
I can't accept that argument, since you could also use it to introduce racial T2 ship skills.
Hence, your argumentation is inconsistent.

The devil's in the details… Blink

T2 ship skills allow you access to any hulls — they just unlock special versions of hulls you can already fly. If you train Caldari Cruiser, you gain access to the Osprey, Blackbird, Caracal and Moa hulls. If you train Logistics, you gain access to absolutely nothing. However, if you train Caldari Cruiser and Logistics, you gain access to the Osprey hull and its Basilisk variant.

It's all in the theoretical bit at the end: ships are basically slotted into a big matrix of hulls and roles, with the T1 skills deciding which hulls you can use and the T2 skills deciding what specialities you've unlocked.


That is exactly how the Battlecruisers and Destroyers skills work.


The T2 skills let you access variations of ships you can already fly. Generally limited in some fashion, and with other entry requirements.

Battlecruiser only has a spaceship command requirement (like the other T1 ship types) and lets you use entirely new hulls. Of which there are then T2 versions.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1489 - 2012-03-08 14:12:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Andski wrote:
That is exactly how the Battlecruisers and Destroyers skills work.
…except that they do unlock hulls, unlike the T2 skills.


They don't unlock any hulls on their own. I currently have BC 4 and I can't fly a Harbinger, simply because I don't have Amarr Cruiser III.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1490 - 2012-03-08 14:16:29 UTC
Andski wrote:
They don't unlock any hulls on their own. I currently have BC 4 and I can't fly a Harbinger, simply because I don't have Amarr Cruiser III.

Sure, but they still unlock hulls, unlike the T2 skills. That's why they're inconsistent and are now being shoved back into their proper place.
Alsyth
#1491 - 2012-03-08 14:18:35 UTC
As a crosstrained T2 Cruiser/BC focused character, I really don't like this "racial battlecruiser" idea... I don't want to spend 4,5M new SPs just to be able to fly all my command ships again.


We crosstrainers already have to skill many weapon systems, all lvl5 cruisers... All lvl5 racial BC on top of that??? Really CCP...


What's the point in making capital ship that much easier to skill for, besides? 0.0 farming/repping alts? So bad...



I don't know CCP, try to favor crosstraining, making the first cruiser you skill for rank 5, the second rank 4, the third rank 3, the fourth rank 2 ??? Same with BC, rank 6-5-4-3, and so on?
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#1492 - 2012-03-08 14:21:22 UTC
And fix the Eris please, asap. I was so excited when I just got the skills to fly it, and then I tried to fit it, and almost cried.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1493 - 2012-03-08 14:21:45 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Andski wrote:
That is exactly how the Battlecruisers and Destroyers skills work.
…except that they do unlock hulls, unlike the T2 skills.


They don't unlock any hulls on their own. I currently have BC 4 and I can't fly a Harbinger, simply because I don't have Amarr Cruiser III.



And the T2 skills don't unlock any hulls. The Battlecruiser and destroyer skills do.

the Scimitar isn't a new hull. It's a modified Scythe.
The Hurricane is a new hull.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1494 - 2012-03-08 14:22:26 UTC
Alsyth wrote:
As a crosstrained T2 Cruiser/BC focused character, I really don't like this "racial battlecruiser" idea... I don't want to spend 4,5M new SPs just to be able to fly all my command ships again.


We crosstrainers already have to skill many weapon systems, all lvl5 cruisers... All lvl5 racial BC on top of that??? Really CCP...


What's the point in making capital ship that much easier to skill for, besides? 0.0 farming/repping alts? So bad...



I don't know CCP, try to favor crosstraining, making the first cruiser you skill for rank 5, the second rank 4, the third rank 3, the fourth rank 2 ??? Same with BC, rank 6-5-4-3, and so on?

Can we report people for not reading the freaking OP, and just making knee jerk posts?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1495 - 2012-03-08 14:22:50 UTC
Alsyth wrote:
As a crosstrained T2 Cruiser/BC focused character, I really don't like this "racial battlecruiser" idea... I don't want to spend 4,5M new SPs just to be able to fly all my command ships again.



Still? People /still/ aren't reading the links from the very first post on this topic?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1496 - 2012-03-08 14:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Alsyth wrote:
As a crosstrained T2 Cruiser/BC focused character, I really don't like this "racial battlecruiser" idea... I don't want to spend 4,5M new SPs just to be able to fly all my command ships again.
Go read the OP and the links in it.
Quote:
What's the point in making capital ship that much easier to skill for, besides?
It's not that much easier. 20 days less on a project that stretches over one or two years is an insignificantly minute change.
Quote:
I don't know CCP, try to favor crosstraining
No. Nerf-proofing yourself and/or chasing the FOTM should be hideously costly.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1497 - 2012-03-08 14:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:

The fact every body flies them very often (almost every players guide tells you to rush to your racial Battlecruiser) points out exactly why it is broken.


You do realize that this is because BCs are the largest ship that are still fairly forgiving of a lack of skillpoints in support skills, right? Once you get into BS and T2 ships, those 2s and 3s in armor comp skills and navigation skills just don't cut it anymore.

BCs are the current ship of the line for smaller gangs of less experienced players, while battleships are for larger fleets (where a few people short on SP is averaged out of existance) and more experienced players in small gangs tend to favor T2 and faction frigs/cruisers.

That is why you are told to rush to BC when you start the game(also, :drake:)



If that where true why are 5 of the top 20 ships Battlecruisers, 4 of the top 10, 3 of the top 5 and 2 of the top 3.

those are responceble of more than half of the total kills.

only 4 other t1 (non faction) hold that list

2 battleships 1 destroyer and 1 frigate.

Now ofcourse I don't know how you define experienced, but it would mean:

1) there are very few experienced players according to your definition
2) Experienced players shoot eachother but don't kill eachother very often.
3) Or many people including experienced players fly Battlecruisers

I would go with 3: and if there is a game where every body uses the same toy, it means that it, or all the others are broken.

Source

ofcourse these are only PvP figures, but there are quite some people flying Battlecruisers in PVE as well, although that is ofcourse pure speculation.
Jhaelee de'Auvrie
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1498 - 2012-03-08 14:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jhaelee de'Auvrie
In the end this sounds like it will be the “Learning Skills” issue all over again a huge change that affects a lot of how training time works. Much like the learning skills, it mostly affects the older characters and players who have gotten used to how things have always been. For those characters that are newer or are created after the change has been implemented, it will likely just be an improvement.

The real question I have at this point is if they are planning on splitting the Command Ships into two skills? On the little charts, the Recons are pair up, despite having different roles but the Command Ships are pointedly split and titled with their role title.
Alsyth
#1499 - 2012-03-08 14:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Tippia wrote:
Alsyth wrote:
As a crosstrained T2 Cruiser/BC focused character, I really don't like this "racial battlecruiser" idea... I don't want to spend 4,5M new SPs just to be able to fly all my command ships again.
Go read the OP and the links in it.
Quote:
What's the point in making capital ship that much easier to skill for, besides?
It's not that much easier. 20 days less on a project that stretches over one or two years is an insignificantly minute change.
Quote:
I don't know CCP, try to favor crosstraining
No. Nerf-proofing yourself and/or chasing the FOTM should be hideously costly.



CCP giving me 4.5M free SP won't make it any better if my new pvp recruits have to spend 6M SP instead of 1.5M to be efficient crosstrainers.

This "you won't have to re-train for something you can already fly" is fine, but not satisfying for new characters. And I care about new characters too.

Capital alt trained for remote repping carriers are already too easy to have imo.

Crosstraining is not "nerf proofing" or "FOTM chasing", it's just being versatile, which is very important in pvp. And it's already costly (guns and missiles, racial cruisers, frigs, BSs, shield and armor tanking...).
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#1500 - 2012-03-08 14:37:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
Oh, and please help me, what is bad about "having access to too many hulls by training one skill"?
I can't accept that argument, since you could also use it to introduce racial T2 ship skills.
Hence, your argumentation is inconsistent.

The devil's in the details… Blink

T2 ship skills allow you access to any hulls — they just unlock special versions of hulls you can already fly. If you train Caldari Cruiser, you gain access to the Osprey, Blackbird, Caracal and Moa hulls. If you train Logistics, you gain access to absolutely nothing. However, if you train Caldari Cruiser and Logistics, you gain access to the Osprey hull and its Basilisk variant.

It's all in the theoretical bit at the end: ships are basically slotted into a big matrix of hulls and roles, with the T1 skills deciding which hulls you can use and the T2 skills deciding what specialities you've unlocked.

I was about to answer his questions, but then I saw your post. Excellent explanation Lol

Andski wrote:
That is exactly how the Battlecruisers and Destroyers skills work.

No, it isn't! They give access to hulls, meaning T1 base versions, not specialized variants. Yet they are cross-race, like T2. In order to make Battlecruisers themselves race-specific they also require the cruiser skill. But they are NOT cruisers or variants of cruisers, as HACs f.ex. are (which therefore require racial cruiser V)! They are clearly their own size-class.

This is sort of a hack that initially made sense because when they were introduced there was just one BC per race, it's rather clear why they didn't want to sqeeze in a new skill (between cruiser and BS) at the time. Now though we have 3 per race, we have T2 specializations that build on the hulls (Command ships). This also goes for Destroyers (the specialization part), and Ytterbium has acknowledged that there is an issue there (possibly creating more variants or finding another solution).