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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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AnzacPaul
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#1341 - 2012-03-07 23:18:23 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

They ARE optional. Aside from what is specifically stated in the prereqs for a ship, everything IS OPTIONAL. Can you fly a legion without being able to use lasers or missiles at all? YES! Can I train HML's for a tengu but not get T2 trained? YES! Do I just sit in dock for 2 years because I don't have max skills to fly a particular ship? VERY MUCH NO.



"optional" is kind of a loose word in a game that is 8 years old when the vets above you have every one of those skills already trained to V, and your trying to be competitive.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1342 - 2012-03-07 23:21:51 UTC
Morar Santee wrote:
Moraguth wrote:
Someone said it before, but I think you missed it completely. Every time you say "have to retrain", a dev sheds a tear. YOU DON"T HAVE TO RETRAIN ANYTHING. I say it in all caps not to yell, but so that you will hopefully see it. If you can fly with max skills pre-patch, you will fly with the same skills post-patch. As soon as you log in.

Yes. Except we already established that if CCP decides to add new support skills that are in fact mandatory to fly a ship competitively, that requires you to retrain to use the ship competitively. As this is a game revolving around competition, you probably want to use your ship competitively. Ergo you have to train those new support skills to fly the same ships as before, ergo you have to re-train.

In fact, that you are not capable of understanding what is being discussed is probably a sign you have no place in this discussion in the first place.


we already established? No. You assumed. And I disagree.

I remember a batch of "support skills" that came out, people were all up in arms for those too. but really, all they did was improve the game for the group of players who wanted to train them. I'm talking about the EW support skills that improved cap use, range, duration for each type of ew (tp, dams, ecm, etc). If you wanted to do ew ships and use TP, you could train those skills to be even more badass than before. And you didn't even have to touch the damp skills, the ecm skills, or anything besides what you wanted.

To assume you have to train every new skill just to "be competetive" makes your post the "idiotic post" that should be disregarded without a second thought. Try thinking of things in a new light instead of just presuming the world is out to get you. TBH, you're really not that important. I just happen to have a soft spot in my heart for willfully ignorant and obstinate internet people. I assume they can be taught, but maybe that makes me an idiot too.

Good luck to you being always pissed off and thinking you're the victim. I'll be happy knowing I have more choice, more freedom, and more ability to kick ass and make money than ever before.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Crucis Cassiopeiae
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1343 - 2012-03-07 23:24:35 UTC
I see many ppl that are against this change.
I see many ppl that are for this change.

But i don't see against what can you be here.

Its all GOOOOOD changes in my book!

Vote Issler Dainze for CSM7! http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=470 
Morar Santee
#1344 - 2012-03-07 23:25:28 UTC
Sigras wrote:
wow ok, first of all, they mentioned "additional support skills" in passing as a way to keep it from getting too easy to get into T2 ships, and you just naturally assume these skills will do nothing to the ship!

Secondly, what part of "if you can fly it today you can fly it tomorrow" didnt you understand?

Thirdly, its not like you're being singled out for this change, if you have to train additional skills "to be competitive" then everyone else has to train those skills too, and unless you're an idiot youre going to train them just as fast as everyone else

And Lastly, if you're relying on SP to make you good at PvP you've lost already.


Actually, no, those "additional support skills" are for the "new lines of ships that will replace tiers". That is all ships. Learn2read.

And yes, everyone else will have to train those skills as well. Obviously. That is the entire point. It increases training time to fly existing ships, for no other reason than to increase training time to fly existing ships. Because in order for this to be balanced, all advantages gained by training those skills have to be canceled out by the respective support skills of other ship lines.

I really hope you are not relying on your reading comprehension skills, or logical deduction. Because you'd be at least as lost as I am in PvP. That's a given.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1345 - 2012-03-07 23:25:35 UTC
AnzacPaul wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

They ARE optional. Aside from what is specifically stated in the prereqs for a ship, everything IS OPTIONAL. Can you fly a legion without being able to use lasers or missiles at all? YES! Can I train HML's for a tengu but not get T2 trained? YES! Do I just sit in dock for 2 years because I don't have max skills to fly a particular ship? VERY MUCH NO.



"optional" is kind of a loose word in a game that is 8 years old when the vets above you have every one of those skills already trained to V, and your trying to be competitive.

Respectfully, my oldest is under 3 years. My ability to play the game is completely vested in the idea that more SP is not the key to success. Do they provide statistical advantages? Yes, but those are not so overwhelming that they cannot be overcome by specializing and learning to fly properly. Many pilots do it in game every day, so yes, optional applies in the majority of cases I imagine.
Leah Solo
Lag No Use
#1346 - 2012-03-07 23:27:11 UTC
New skill tree: meh. It doesn't add anything but confusion with sp relocation, and newbs getting kicked in the crotch.

Why does every skill has to be streamlined? What's wrong with battlecruisers and destroyers being a 'unique' skill? Will it confuse new players? Did it confuse new players?

BS 4 for cap ships is terrible idea imo. Capital ships deserve to have BS 5 prereq. For that feeling of achievement..and the added meaning. If there really is a dire need to lower a training time of that 20 days, I'd rather have the AWU prereq dropped to 4 if possible.

Tiericide is a good idea..all those 'useless' ships should get a buff. But the task will be massive, and potential for screwing up is huge.

Also not quite liking getting ships more into designated roles. The beauty of EVE is that you can use a ship and mould it to your needs with mods. Versatility..let's not destroy it.

With this one, CCP is on a road of make or brake.

Morar Santee
#1347 - 2012-03-07 23:27:31 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
we already established? No. You assumed. And I disagree.


Yes, awesome. Now read the posts above yours. Read the part where I quoted the Ytterbium. Try to understand it. Carefully.
AnzacPaul
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#1348 - 2012-03-07 23:27:53 UTC
Moraguth wrote:


we already established? No. You assumed. And I disagree.

I remember a batch of "support skills" that came out, people were all up in arms for those too. but really, all they did was improve the game for the group of players who wanted to train them. I'm talking about the EW support skills that improved cap use, range, duration for each type of ew (tp, dams, ecm, etc). If you wanted to do ew ships and use TP, you could train those skills to be even more badass than before. And you didn't even have to touch the damp skills, the ecm skills, or anything besides what you wanted.

To assume you have to train every new skill just to "be competetive" makes your post the "idiotic post" that should be disregarded without a second thought. Try thinking of things in a new light instead of just presuming the world is out to get you. TBH, you're really not that important. I just happen to have a soft spot in my heart for willfully ignorant and obstinate internet people. I assume they can be taught, but maybe that makes me an idiot too.

Good luck to you being always pissed off and thinking you're the victim. I'll be happy knowing I have more choice, more freedom, and more ability to kick ass and make money than ever before.



You just stated the new skills make you "even more badass", then claim that you don't need them to be competitive........

That's a stupid as saying you don't "need" recon ships at 4 or 5..... Try 1v1 a curse or rapier with recon 1 V recon 5. Recon V isn't a requisite, but if you want to be competitive, it is.....
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1349 - 2012-03-07 23:31:56 UTC
Morar Santee wrote:
Sigras wrote:
wow ok, first of all, they mentioned "additional support skills" in passing as a way to keep it from getting too easy to get into T2 ships, and you just naturally assume these skills will do nothing to the ship!

Secondly, what part of "if you can fly it today you can fly it tomorrow" didnt you understand?

Thirdly, its not like you're being singled out for this change, if you have to train additional skills "to be competitive" then everyone else has to train those skills too, and unless you're an idiot youre going to train them just as fast as everyone else

And Lastly, if you're relying on SP to make you good at PvP you've lost already.


Actually, no, those "additional support skills" are for the "new lines of ships that will replace tiers". That is all ships. Learn2read.

And yes, everyone else will have to train those skills as well. Obviously. That is the entire point. It increases training time to fly existing ships, for no other reason than to increase training time to fly existing ships. Because in order for this to be balanced, all advantages gained by training those skills have to be canceled out by the respective support skills of other ship lines.

I really hope you are not relying on your reading comprehension skills, or logical deduction. Because you'd be at least as lost as I am in PvP. That's a given.


I think you might have read a different dev blog on some conspiracy theorist website. You might want to re-check that and make sure it says "eveonline.com" in the address bar somewhere when you do.

If you did read the same blog, perhaps... perhaps you shouldn't ... you know what. perhaps you should. you should think that you have to train every new skill that comes out. and stay docked in the station while you do that.

i, along with most everyone else, will continue to fly amazingly well despite your dark visions of the future. you're basically the homeless guy screaming "THE END IS NIGH!" on the street corner as the rest of civilized life passes you by.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Jinzou
Delsu Foundation
#1350 - 2012-03-07 23:32:21 UTC
NO.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1351 - 2012-03-07 23:32:54 UTC
Morar Santee wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Morar Santee wrote:

Yes, except there is no new video card. In fact, there is nothing new at all.

You get the same ships you had before, except you have to retrain to use every single one of them competitively. It simply adds additional time-sinks into a game that already has fairly slow, time-based skill-progression.
I actually like that system, but if someone's telling me: "GJ making a skill-training plan for 5 years. Now please retrain for all your ships." Then the answer is: FU.

And that you are incapable of seeing this for what it is, is really sad beyond words.

If this was an instance of introducing something new and saying: "You need new skills to do this." - I wouldn't be saying a word. I happily trained for every Strategic Cruiser. I didn't do any PI, but it made sense it required new skills.
But it's an instance of: Same **** as before. Lolol wait 10 more months for the same thing.

Now, before you claim abolishing tiers and rebalancing everything is the most awesome thing in the world and totally makes it worth training those skills: You have no ******* clue how that will turn out. All evidence points to it likely ending in a gigantic clusterfuck. Even if it doesn't: For this to be an improvement, they'd have to make all t1 frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers equally desirable and competitive - while not rendering other ships useless. And you seriously believe that's going to happen?

I'm sorry, but what aspects of the proposed are you upset about specifically? You lost me.
There is no retraining as proposed currently as your BC lvl would be replicated across all the new BC skills. So instead of flying say, a myrm with lvl 5 bonuses you will have... lvl 5 bonuses.

But most importantly, regarding the rebalance and removal of tiers, unless your stance is everything is fine as is and there are no changes that could be made, how is your complaint anything but baseless negativity aimed at efforts to address a problem we all know exists?


Answer:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

It groups vessels into easily identifiable lines for each race and allow us to add new skills to support them. That is the purpose of the ship line skills mentioned above, which could further boost respective advantages. Combat ship line skills could give a bonus to defense, while attack ship skills benefit offense and mobility for example.

Still lost as to the issue you have here. Are you saying you don't want ship roles to change and possibly invalidate a choice of race? If so your quote states an intent to replicate those roles across all races, though hopefully retaining specific racial flavors. Is the issue additional skills to train to max something out? I don't think of max performance skill wise is a prerequisite for being competitive so this is a non issue for me. Is it the fear that the ship skills will be further broken down to specific lines? Would be a pain, but not an insurmountable one. And even then, that is IF you are interpreting it correctly.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1352 - 2012-03-07 23:34:10 UTC
Morar Santee wrote:
Moraguth wrote:
we already established? No. You assumed. And I disagree.


Yes, awesome. Now read the posts above yours. Read the part where I quoted the Ytterbium. Try to understand it. Carefully.


my comprehension is just fine. i'm just not jumping to doomsday conclusions you seem to be. lrn2notsuck? :)

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Sigras
Conglomo
#1353 - 2012-03-07 23:35:24 UTC
so, basically what youre saying is that you would be upset if they added a skill called "gallente ship specialization" which gives "+5% armor to all gellente ships per level" because thats increasing the training time to fly the ship?

you do realize that after you train the skill, the ship is better right?

You saying that they're "required skills to be competitive" is ridiculous. Take mechanic for example; i have that skill to level 5, but 99.9% of the time it doesnt matter if you have the skill at 1 or at 5, it makes no difference because most fights dont end with one person in 25% structure . . . is that skill "required to be competitive"?

And honestly, if you think SP is what makes you good at PvP you have some serious things to learn about this game.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1354 - 2012-03-07 23:38:14 UTC
Sigras wrote:
so, basically what youre saying is that you would be upset if they added a skill called "gallente ship specialization" which gives "+5% armor to all gellente ships per level" because thats increasing the training time to fly the ship?

you do realize that after you train the skill, the ship is better right?

You saying that they're "required skills to be competitive" is ridiculous. Take mechanic for example; i have that skill to level 5, but 99.9% of the time it doesnt matter if you have the skill at 1 or at 5, it makes no difference because most fights dont end with one person in 25% structure . . . is that skill "required to be competitive"?

And honestly, if you think SP is what makes you good at PvP you have some serious things to learn about this game.


Quoted because I think some people need the repetition to get it through their skulls =D

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
AnzacPaul
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#1355 - 2012-03-07 23:38:56 UTC
Sigras wrote:


You saying that they're "required skills to be competitive" is ridiculous. Take mechanic for example; i have that skill to level 5, but 99.9% of the time it doesnt matter if you have the skill at 1 or at 5, it makes no difference because most fights dont end with one person in 25% structure . . . is that skill "required to be competitive"?

And honestly, if you think SP is what makes you good at PvP you have some serious things to learn about this game.



We should all stop fitting damage controls then too hey?

If your not getting into structure, your not pvping enough....
Morar Santee
#1356 - 2012-03-07 23:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Morar Santee
Moraguth wrote:
I think you might have read a different dev blog on some conspiracy theorist website. You might want to re-check that and make sure it says "eveonline.com" in the address bar somewhere when you do.


I'll quote it again, just for you. It's really hard to read, I know, but let's try this one more time:

Ytterbium wrote:
It groups vessels into easily identifiable lines for each race and allow us to add new skills to support them. That is the purpose of the ship line skills mentioned above, which could further boost respective advantages. Combat ship line skills could give a bonus to defense, while attack ship skills benefit offense and mobility for example.

Now, he refers to "ship lines". Here are examples of the ship lines:
Ytterbium wrote:
Introducing ship lines

  • Combat ships: designed for direct fights, such vessels are usually found spear heading an attack force, or sniping from long range. Have great damage and defense, but poor mobility. A good representation would be 18th century "ships of the line". EVE examples: Abaddon, Rokh, Hyperion, Maelstrom, Ferox, Maller.
  • Attack vessels: Made for hit and run assault, or flanking opportunities. Have great damage and mobility, but average defense. Similar in role with cavalry. EVE examples: Armageddon, Megathron, Tempest, Oracle, Thorax, Hurricane, Dominix, Myrmidon.
Even a person that was dropped on the head as a child, repeatedly, can understand that this means each of these lines of ships will be boosted by a new support skill, that directly translates to EHP, DPS etc.

The problem I have with this is: After training those additional skills, we will have the same status quo as before. Because in order for this to be balanced, the effects cancel each other out. Do you understand? Except we had to invest additional training time to fly the same ships. For no reason.

And I have to wonder why you refuse to read the ******* blog.
M'nu
Vard School of Cryo Cuisine
#1357 - 2012-03-07 23:42:03 UTC
Sernum wrote:
Just to put this in terms CCP will understand. "incarna and nex store was a better idea than this" Hope this helps.


Your mother not swallowing you was a worse idea than incarna.
AnzacPaul
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#1358 - 2012-03-07 23:42:49 UTC
M'nu wrote:
Sernum wrote:
Just to put this in terms CCP will understand. "incarna and nex store was a better idea than this" Hope this helps.


Your mother not swallowing you was a worse idea than incarna.


Personal insults on the internet make you a tough guy c/d?
Vigoth Ritic
Frozen Corpse Inc.
#1359 - 2012-03-07 23:42:57 UTC
Here we go again, time to hit them in the wallet, removing 6 accounts now..


I VOTE NO!!!
1. remove races from eve, they are dont help anyone..
2. here we go again, same bumb ideas

REMEMBER 2011
WE WILL NOT FORGET 2011 !!

CQ SUCKS

THIS GAME NOW SUCKS, CCP SOLD OUT TO SONY!!!

DONT BUY INTO CCP's AUR.....

DUST514 WILL FAIL!!!!!

CCP NEEDS TO INVEST INTO EVE 1st

WHERES MY NEW CPU CCP?

CCP ..TEST YOUR PATCH B4 YOU SEND IT TO THE FLOOR...WTF

GOODBYE 5 ACCOUNTS..I QUIT !!!

RECALL THE CSM6 ...PUPPETS OF CCP

EVE IS A CASH COW FOR DUST/WOD
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1360 - 2012-03-07 23:46:01 UTC
AnzacPaul wrote:
Sigras wrote:


You saying that they're "required skills to be competitive" is ridiculous. Take mechanic for example; i have that skill to level 5, but 99.9% of the time it doesnt matter if you have the skill at 1 or at 5, it makes no difference because most fights dont end with one person in 25% structure . . . is that skill "required to be competitive"?

And honestly, if you think SP is what makes you good at PvP you have some serious things to learn about this game.



We should all stop fitting damage controls then too hey?

If your not getting into structure, your not pvping enough....


You should only be fitting DCUs on BS and above anyway. And if you're going into fleet vs fleet combat, I wouldn't even bother with them on a BS, they don't really matter at that point. Small gang pvp and PVE are completely different subjects entirely.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon