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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#681 - 2012-03-06 22:16:47 UTC
I honestly had no clue there was this many players who do not know how to read. Sad really. Ugh
ReptilesBlade
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#682 - 2012-03-06 22:17:14 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
While changes of this scope will always be controversial, and may involve a bit of inconvenience, the fact that CCP is tackling such issues illustrates how much focus and love FiS is getting.

We all can (and should) argue about the best way to refresh various areas of the game, but the most important thing to keep in mind is that CCP is putting a ton of effort into refreshing the game!



I also agree! Trebor is absolutely right. At least CCP is actually doing something good for once.

Crucible. What CCP should have been doing for the last 2 years.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#683 - 2012-03-06 22:18:38 UTC
You realized you just managed to **** off a crap load of people, such as myself, who spent so much time training all this **** and now you are going to say "oh you have battleship 5, sorry for that month you no longer need" between my characters I have atleast 10 months of training which is no longer needed.

AttentionI do not care about the re-arranging of ship lines as I do of the level 5 req now being 4.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. DO NOT DO THIS.
Korinne
The Partisan Brigade
#684 - 2012-03-06 22:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Korinne
FeralShadow wrote:
I HATE CHANGE EVEN IF IT IS GOING TO MAKE THIS GAME WAY BETTER IN THE LONG RUN OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo

/sarcasm


Since when has anything on the internet or anything electronic had anything to do with the concept of 'the long run'. If something isn't good people won't play it, even if it MIGHT be good at some random point in the future.
Smoke Adian
#685 - 2012-03-06 22:19:23 UTC
Huh? This games been out for closing in on a decade now, there are some balancing tweaks to be make, but do we really need to rebalance every ship in the game? It's scary cause this has the potential to be a disaster and the decisions being made are already weird ones.

The skill changes are equally as confusing - the dev blog makes it sound like these are great changes for everyone when all they're doing is making cross-training a *****. Forget about the reimbursements for the vets, it's the new people that this will absolutely suck for. It's quite common for people to switch around from minnie/gallente/caldari BC's (especially w/ the tier 2's now) for various roaming fleets and now new people will need to train all of these to five at some point. Raising the barrier's to entry for new peeps is not what we need.

Finally, a month off carrier training? So someone who can't even fly a BS at full skills can skill caps. This is totally inconsistent with the other changes. Besides the only way someone who doesn't even have BS5 is going to pay for the carrier and cap skills is with plex.... ah, I see what you did there.

Anyways, the last thing EVE needed right now is a complete restructuring of its core after last year.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#686 - 2012-03-06 22:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
Syri Taneka wrote:
Put it this way. As of right now I can fly the Damnation, Absolution, Astarte, Eos, Vulture, Nighthawk, Claymore, and Sleipnir. I own 3 of those across 3 races. If, after this proposed change, I can no longer fly some of them without spending another 23d 17h 34m 53s (BC 5 based on my current attributes) PER RACE, then I will quit. No questions, end of story, done. And I won't be alone.


FFS. Can you people not read the the FIRST POST correctly?

If you can fly a ship now, you'll be able to fly it post patch.

Got it?

Good.
Lexmana
#687 - 2012-03-06 22:20:12 UTC
WOW. Couldn't bother to read all replies but this is AWSOME. Yeah, I do realize there will be lots of problems especially in a transition period and i kind of liked the nonracial destroyer and BC thing. But this has the potential to revitalize the whole ship line and could make specializing and fleet compositions much more interesting. Tiericide ftw.

OMG. My draft is autosaved tooo.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#688 - 2012-03-06 22:20:49 UTC
If the principle on the skills will be

"If you could fly it yesterday, you can fly it today"

then...

Take a player who has battlecruiser V, but only trained frigate and cruiser on one race. That player will want to get frig and cruiser trained up on all other races before this change. That way they can fly all BCs. When the change hits, they get awarded BC V in all races, so they can still fly all BCs with the same skill as before the change.

If fact everyone will want to max out destroyer and BC before this change. If you can fly all 4 races BCs, then every SP you put into destroyer or BC will get multiplied by 4.

Yay! Free skill points!

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Kata Amentis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#689 - 2012-03-06 22:21:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kata Amentis
let's take a step back...

firstly, after years of patching in "cool" stuff ontop of the original "frig, cruiser, bs" idea the devs have decided to go back to principles and design a system that functions in it's own right.

secondly, they've put a load of work into the idea to make sure they have a direction and decent concept before...

thirdly, they've come out here and pushed the flame me button and started asking us what we think before anything is too far gone. So we can talk about the problems we can see, the problems they can see and get a solution before it gets f***ed up.


this is what we've been shouting for on so many fronts for ages. Coherent redesign of abandoned or crippled game concepts, with good communication.


so many people complaining about losing out on this ship or the other... what about the countless ships that no one bothers to fly at the moment because under the current system they're not worth it. If this shakeup means there are dozens of worthwhile ships to fly instead of the current handful it's definitely worth doing.

and in case anyone missed them:

CCP Soundwave wrote:

We'll find a suitable reimbursement that makes everyone happy. I'm not terribly fussed about giving away a little extra if it moves we move the ship progression system into a better place.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=898503#post898503

CCP Soundwave wrote:

We'll sit down and have a chat about it, but what we're looking to do is create a solid ship scheme, not take things away from people. You'll be reimbursed properly.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=898503#post898503

Reimbursement and how we get from old to new paradigm is up for discussion, so thinking caps on, let see how we can get the most out of this in a convincing manner to the best solution...

edit: wow 5 pages since i started writing this...

Curiosity killed the Kata... ... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count.
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#690 - 2012-03-06 22:21:29 UTC
One thing that is worth pointing out is if you give people an SP refund they can just go and spend it elsewhere (as that's a lot of SP if you're giving out enough for 4x BC and 4x Dest at level 5)

It would be better to set skills appropriately,

Player has all frigates 4 and destroyer 5 They get all Destroyers 5

Player only has Caldari frigate 4 and destroyers 5 they only get Caldari destroyer 5

I'd imagine this would be a PITA to do though.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Karles
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#691 - 2012-03-06 22:24:30 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
Syri Taneka wrote:
Put it this way. As of right now I can fly the Damnation, Absolution, Astarte, Eos, Vulture, Nighthawk, Claymore, and Sleipnir. I own 3 of those across 3 races. If, after this proposed change, I can no longer fly some of them without spending another 23d 17h 34m 53s (BC 5 based on my current attributes) PER RACE, then I will quit. No questions, end of story, done. And I won't be alone.


FFS. Can you people not read the the FIRST POST correctly?

If you can fly a ship now, you'll be able to fly it post patch.

Got it?

Good.



Ok stop replying the same stupid SHT every time. Able to fly does not mean able to fly PROPERLY or MAXED. Stop being flashed by all the shiny stuff they throw at you.

CCP should be able to give more content without screwing with the older toons.

I am able to fly all 4 command ship races at level 5 with all mindlinks. Is CCP granting that I could keep being the fleet commander with full bonus for my fleet? C'mon I'm not idiot.

You are really going to **** off a lot of vets, and you know what happened the last time you did this, so think twice before being a bunch of tards again.
M'nu
Vard School of Cryo Cuisine
#692 - 2012-03-06 22:24:41 UTC
Emissary K'Ehleyr wrote:
one of the worst things you have thought of and trust me that is along list you should improve the game not make it worse this won't help anyone the only thing it will gain is get yopu more money for subs end of


. or , use them please.
Bruno Bourque
#693 - 2012-03-06 22:24:54 UTC
This is crap to say the least. And saying "if you could fly it before you can fly it after" is hollow... before the change I could not only fly the ship but I was maxed out in it.
Now I will be able to reallocate my skill points to have 4 races BC to 4. And the same for Destroyers (and more importantly the T2 variants).

Unless you get to go to the same level of each racial BC as you have of BC and cruiser (which ever is lower for the race) then it is a kick in the teeth for those that have these skills already.

I am also against this lowering of the entry point into a lot of ships. Specifically things like Command ships and Capitals. The point of these were that they take time to get into... now a carrier is going to be really easy to get into.
Spectrael
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#694 - 2012-03-06 22:24:54 UTC
Even if all players who have Battlecruisers V trained are given Racial Battlecruisers V, it's still 4 skills future players are going to have to train.

Leave it the way it is.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#695 - 2012-03-06 22:25:17 UTC
Turelus wrote:
One thing that is worth pointing out is if you give people an SP refund they can just go and spend it elsewhere (as that's a lot of SP if you're giving out enough for 4x BC and 4x Dest at level 5)

It would be better to set skills appropriately,

Player has all frigates 4 and destroyer 5 They get all Destroyers 5

Player only has Caldari frigate 4 and destroyers 5 they only get Caldari destroyer 5

I'd imagine this would be a PITA to do though.


Probably not, actually. I suspect 4 correlated subqueries would do it.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Avena Feint
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#696 - 2012-03-06 22:27:50 UTC
After reading all 35 pages of this, I decided I just had to chime in to support these changes. The only people who have any sort of valid argument are those who seem dead set against the BSV requirement for Capitols. Personally I don't have issues with it, but I can see where some might. Folks here should be making suggestions and having a nice discourse with the company who makes the game we all enjoy, not just splurting emorage all over the forums.

+1 for removal of tiers. +1 for making the ship progression make sense. +1 for the tears of bittervets who fail at reading comprehension.
Korinne
The Partisan Brigade
#697 - 2012-03-06 22:28:25 UTC
"If you can fly it now, you can fly it tomorrow." It sounds an awful lot like "the NeX/PI won't affect the market." All promises from CCP mean nothing until they have proven their intent. Remember monoclegate? What they promise and what they do are hardly the same thing, so you will forgive me if I am skeptical of any sort of promise CCP makes because at this point I believe them about as much as I believe a presidential candidate.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#698 - 2012-03-06 22:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gnaw LF
Buzzmong wrote:
Syri Taneka wrote:
Put it this way. As of right now I can fly the Damnation, Absolution, Astarte, Eos, Vulture, Nighthawk, Claymore, and Sleipnir. I own 3 of those across 3 races. If, after this proposed change, I can no longer fly some of them without spending another 23d 17h 34m 53s (BC 5 based on my current attributes) PER RACE, then I will quit. No questions, end of story, done. And I won't be alone.


FFS. Can you people not read the the FIRST POST correctly?

If you can fly a ship now, you'll be able to fly it post patch.

Got it?

Good.



I dont think thats the issue that people have with the dev blog. Yes, we will still fly it post patch but will we do it perfectly? Thats the issues, people are worried that their BCV and perfect skills to fly Tornadoes, Talos and Oracle will not translate into perfect skills in racial battlecruisers. Yes, under the change we might still be able to fly the three ships I mentioned above, but will we do it perfectly? Players dont like losing their toys, we agree to our toys getting a nerf bat but when such toys are completely gone due to a "fix" that no one wanter, yeah no wonder there is an outcry.

The idea is good, but CCP prematurely posted the dev blog. It should not have been made public until a solid plan for SP reimbursement was ready to be published. I am all for this change, but CCP needs to post their SP reimbursement plan today.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#699 - 2012-03-06 22:30:10 UTC
Kitt JT wrote:

What I'm talking about is skills like "advanced spaceship command"
Why is advanced spaceship command 5 a requirement for capital ships?
Would it not make sense to have the requirement at 4? or even 1? or not at all?
The point is that its an extra 30 day skill that everybody flying carriers and dreads has to train, that doesn't really change anything (as everyone gets it) its a pointless filler-skill.

Similarly, jump drive operation.
Jump drive operation 5 is a requirement for JDC.
Fleets will NOT let anybody fly with them without JDC 4 (although JDC 5 requirement is becoming more common).
Its another needless 30 day skill that has no progression (you really don't have an extra 30 day skill that EVERYBODY needs for ALL capitals)

It's a subscription based game. There will usually be a couple of timegrinds to pad the bottom line. That's two months of gametime right there.

Which is a bit ****** but it sure beats microtransactions for advantage or convenience.
Stanis Myunga
Exiled Souls
#700 - 2012-03-06 22:30:56 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Stanis Myunga wrote:
I'm concerned with the fact that this would screw those of us who've progressed directly from frigate to cruiser training. Up until 3-4 months ago I didn't have destroyers trained and I was already flying in battleship-class vessels.

These changes would mean an extremely huge nerf to nullsec PVP and severely disrupt fleet ops as major retraining would be needed, especially for toons under 2 years of age.

Cross-training at present point in time is relatively easy and not so much time consuming. However, with the changes, you're going to rickroll players' abilities to cross-train for other vessels.

In my instance, I can, at this moment in time... fly a Machariel, Vindi and Bhaalgorn. With the changes to the skill trees, I will be locked out most if not all pirate faction vessels that I can currently fly and do own. So will other members from my corp. Which is not making anyone happy.

Then there's those of us with negligible SP in destroyers and battlecruisers. Are we going to be reimbursed with full SP to match our current ship skills to keep continuity or will we be forced change gears and spend even MORE time training destroyers IV and then BC IV to fly battleships AGAIN?


Cruisers don't need the frigate skill to pilot. Just to inject the skill in the first place. replacing the frigate skill with the destroyer skill will make no difference here. Read the first post.


And I have edited my post at the bottom with a quoted passage. So yes, I know of it by now. Thanks anyway.

I'm still concerned with the separation of to individual racial skill trees, will we be given equivalent SP back for each race equal to the level of which we've trained dessi/BC at or will we be given just a general value of SP in compensation? This will be very important for those flying Command Ships which won't affect me as much as I don't fly Command Ships but it's something to ponder on. And yes, I do know CCP has stated it is examining how it will reimburse pilots.