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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

First post First post
Author
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#601 - 2012-03-06 21:26:43 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
WAIT A MINUTE.

I fly all 8 Racial command ships(7 except for EOS lulz).

You're telling me that I'll have only one racial BC to V (or sp to get), but I have to retrain 3 other Racial BC V (80+ days) just to fly those again?!?



No. Go read the dev posts

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#602 - 2012-03-06 21:28:44 UTC
Morar Santee wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

What the heck? No dude, Tiericide is proof positive that they DO play and PVP.

-Liang


Actually: No, it isn't. If there is a problem with ships of a certain Tier being useless, then the answer is to rebalance the ships of that Tier. Very carefully. With as little intervention as possible.

I see all Tiers of Battleships being used. So the answer to ships not being used is not scrapping Tiers and implementing an arbitrary line of ships that forces me to use a single ship with a single fit if I want to do XYZ. This is, in fact, so much worse than Tiers that it's not even on the same scale anymore.


Did you even read the dev blog? Your counter example was very specifically cited in it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Avitus Caius
Doomheim
#603 - 2012-03-06 21:29:16 UTC
It all sounds great to me.

Just do it right and **** the people who end up bitching about it let them unsub and then welcome the new people who replace them.
Seraph Razgriz
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#604 - 2012-03-06 21:29:24 UTC
As a new player(relatively in eve) here are my views.
If you give people who have trained battle cruiser five all the racial battle cruiser fives, then my training time to get to the same level as that person who was maybe only a month older then me, is now multiplied by four. he went for command ships right away, i took my time, and now to get to the same level as him, i have to train for four months to be at the same level as a guy who trained for one month.
IF you do the whole, what you fly yesterday you fly today. implying that you will get all battle cruiser fives if you had it trained before the switch.
Its not fair if you dont do that. and its not fair if you do.


and capitals. Yes, they are T1, but only needing battleship four? that doesnt feel right. they are capital ships, they shouldnt be a walk in the park to get into. Hey, it would be awesome not to train battleship five, but at the same time..... i should have to.

What about those who only trained battleship five on races PURELY to get a carrier? will they get their battleship five allocated back to them?
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#605 - 2012-03-06 21:30:05 UTC
Morar Santee wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

What the heck? No dude, Tiericide is proof positive that they DO play and PVP.

-Liang


Actually: No, it isn't. If there is a problem with ships of a certain Tier being useless, then the answer is to rebalance the ships of that Tier. Very carefully. With as little intervention as possible.

I see all Tiers of Battleships being used. So the answer to ships not being used is not scrapping Tiers and implementing an arbitrary line of ships that forces me to use a single ship with a single fit if I want to do XYZ. This is, in fact, so much worse than Tiers that it's not even on the same scale anymore.



Did you read the blog?

They acknowledge that Battleships have the smallest tier problem because the proportional difference of slots and EHP is the least in that class!

Where as for frigs, cruisers and battlecruisers the tiers make more that half the ships ridiculous to fly in combat or their current role.

The Economist
Logically Consistent
#606 - 2012-03-06 21:30:31 UTC
Ruri Atreides wrote:
Dearest CCP

1. Why are you trying to change something that isnt broken
2. Having the ability to fly every sub cap ship in the game has taken me YEARS of paying for this game so anything that may jeprodize that does not get my vote.
3. I really dont want to pay for the clone grades that would be required for having 4 BC 5 skills.
.


Good point, hadn' t thought about that. If the new racial bc skills for example are the same tier as the existing one then people could feasibly be boosted up into new clone levels....and they do get expensive. (not sure how much of a concern it really is though since they would inevitably reach that new clone level before long without the changes anyway)
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#607 - 2012-03-06 21:30:34 UTC
I just plain don't see the point. Destroyers are special frigates, battlecruisers are special cruisers. We've never had "Minmatar Assault Ships" or "Amarr Covert Ops", so what isn't arbitrary about these changes?

What's been suggested doesn't add anything to the game, it only causes confusion and stress for most players.
stoicfaux
#608 - 2012-03-06 21:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Skills like Logistics or Interceptors are currently generic. Are these skills also being broken up into "[faction] Logistics" skills?

So under the new system, if I want to train an Amarr Logistic Tech II cruiser, would it require:
*Amarr Frigate IV
* Amarr Destroyer IV
* Amarr Cruiser V
* Amarr Logistics I or "generic" Logistics I
. * Signature Analysis V
. * Long Range Targeting V


Also, the proposed skill tree looks a lot like the T3 Strategic Cruiser tree. A base skill (faction Strategic Cruisers == Amarr Frigate or Amarr Battleship) and then faction specific ship skills (Amarr Offensive Systems == generic/Amarr Logistics or generic/Amarr Heavy Assault Ships.)

edit: damn "save draft" feature is lopping off the last character of lines. Use "chomp" not "chop" dammit.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

TheLostPenguin
Surreal Departure
#609 - 2012-03-06 21:33:55 UTC
Wow so you've spent the last little while trolling the playerbase left after :last year: by arsing around with module/missile names and general ui trashing, that hasn't been bad enough so now you want to screw not only with pretty much every ship ingame, but the skill system as well?
Everyone could talk forever on which ships they feel need a tweak one way or another, I don't think there's many would say you need to tear it up and start from scratch with a new design concept for ships of EVE (basicly what the blog seems to suggest. And maybe I've missed it, but please enlighten me and point out the epic threadnaughts on the forums about how terrible the skills system is and how we need to totally redo that as well (other than the people that want to be able to grind max sp in everything by leaving abot shooting stuff for a few days). Again you take a part of the game that maybe has 1 or 2 little curiosities to work out, and throw out the baby and bathtub along with the water.

To be slightly constructive at least in this post, please just outright promise (and then DELIVER) that you'll grant everyone every new skill that they'd have to retrain, to the level they have it atm. To be perfectly, mind numbingly clear, if you do actually go ahead and make racial destroyer/bc skills, you need to give someone like myself all those new skills to 5 right away, same for every ship that might become inacessable due to revised skill reqs.

Requiring new skills/training for new ships is all fine and to be expected, if you expect people to want to retrain to fly hulls they've had avalible for #sometime# you're incredibly stupid, even for the standards of CCP.

Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2012-03-06 21:34:01 UTC
So if i have minmatar cruiser 3, battlecruiser 5 and command ships 4 will i be able to fly claymore after patch? Im not able to today but i will have minmatar battlecruiser 5
PRLord
Violent Force Productions
#611 - 2012-03-06 21:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: PRLord
First generic and lazy sounding modules, now dumbing down the ship system and making it even harder for young players to be versatile. What you see as streamlining many see as cheapening the game into a cookie cutter form that is sacrificing player knowledge and innovations.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#612 - 2012-03-06 21:35:46 UTC
TheLostPenguin wrote:

Requiring new skills/training for new ships is all fine and to be expected, if you expect people to want to retrain to fly hulls they've had avalible for #sometime# you're incredibly stupid, even for the standards of CCP.


Good thing they're not doing this then. Go read the dev posts.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Avitus Caius
Doomheim
#613 - 2012-03-06 21:36:02 UTC
Avitus Caius wrote:
It all sounds great to me.

Just do it right and **** the people who end up bitching about it let them unsub and then welcome the new people who replace them.


Again this.....
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#614 - 2012-03-06 21:36:18 UTC
Love the idea of getting rid of tiers and opening up the ability to make some of the redundant ships useful again. Though at times I wonder if there are perhaps too many types of frigates for each race. I guess it depends on the bonuses applied to each ship, but perhaps some of the lesser used frigs could be reconfigured to simply provide a cosmetic option for newer players.

As for skill point reimbursement, create special skill books.

If someone has the ability to fly more than one type of cruiser, give them SP to allow them to fly one cruiser based on their race, but then give them skill books that automatically train them to the same level for their race of choice.

Pre-patch: can fly 3 cruiser types
post-patch: can fly racial cruiser, but also have 2 skill books that, when injected, increase the skill level to exactly what is needed for them to continue flying the other cruisers they are used to flying.
Previously at Cruiser 4? Get a skill book for 4. Previously at 5? get a skill book for 5.

Same with BC's.

Doing this instead of re-imbursing skill points not only allows users to quickly get back into their favorite ships, but also gives them the option of holding deciding to train traditionally for one of them, and then sell the special skillbook via contracts for some Isk.

As for the industrial side, the tiny bit of commentary in the blog dedicated to that is a joke. Just leave mining and industrial as it is. You are great at doing that anyway.

Profit favors the prepared

Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#615 - 2012-03-06 21:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
CCP! This is a genial move!!! You guys are realy doing it right! By balancing the game this way you will expand many times the game content, as you are bringing back to life everything that was obsolete, and making them count!!!!

ALTHOUG CCP, WE REALY NEED A CLOAK HUNTER SHIP ASAP! CLOAK IS UNBALANCED THE WAY IT IS NOW!

Now cloak is used as a griefing tool known as AFK Coaking, this prevents people from minning and rating on null-sec, sending many players back to hi-sec, also force all industrials and minners to stay on Hi-sec. This colls down the whole game!! Whille the afk cloaker just sits there as a bot ( afk playing ).
Harocko K'zack
Karmunism Industries
#616 - 2012-03-06 21:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Harocko K'zack
Plain and simple response:

1. do the the roles thing you suggested.
2. do NOT mess with destroyers or battlecruisers.

In my eyes, #1 is a good thing, and #2 is a bad thing.

Yes CCP is greatly known for adding advantages and disadvantages to EVERYTHING they do, but when you do it when your trying to FIX somehting, its pointless to even "Fix" it at that point

By "Fix" im talking about streamlining. How is it stramlining when you now just added 2 books that wssnt there to beguin with? Dessies and Bc's have always been optional and have always been very generic ships. they shoudl stay that way
Morar Santee
#617 - 2012-03-06 21:37:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Morar Santee
Liang Nuren wrote:
Morar Santee wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

What the heck? No dude, Tiericide is proof positive that they DO play and PVP.

-Liang


Actually: No, it isn't. If there is a problem with ships of a certain Tier being useless, then the answer is to rebalance the ships of that Tier. Very carefully. With as little intervention as possible.

I see all Tiers of Battleships being used. So the answer to ships not being used is not scrapping Tiers and implementing an arbitrary line of ships that forces me to use a single ship with a single fit if I want to do XYZ. This is, in fact, so much worse than Tiers that it's not even on the same scale anymore.


Did you even read the dev blog? Your counter example was very specifically cited in it.

-Liang


No ****. So we agree that more slots allow for more versatility and are a good thing, because they allow different ships to be used in different ways.

Solution: Introduce Lines of ships. With a dedicated role and slot layout to be only useful in that role.

Now that you pointed it out, yeah, totally makes sense. Or wait - no it doesn't.


Now, this is just an idea, we could go back to my original point that ships should be carefully balanced. This can include slot layout. Or giving Tier 1 BCs an advantage over their Tier 2 counterparts. It makes no sense the Hurricane packs more DPS and is exactly as fast/agile as the Cyclone. There's a ton of tweaks that could help. Screwing over EVE's core gameplay is not one of them.
Sernum
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#618 - 2012-03-06 21:38:01 UTC
April fools?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#619 - 2012-03-06 21:38:05 UTC
As a veteran, I feel I must be bitter about this, regardless of what the changes are all about and how they will affect me.

Nothing personal, it's in the global rules of MMO participation that all changes are to be despised and fought against with all kinds of bitter hatred and rhetoric, going to ALL CAPS if necessary per the Geneva Convention.

Reading about the actual changes is not even required.


So... uh...... let me begin....

These changes suck. They will ruin the game. My brothers sisters cousins roommate with the 25 accounts is going to unsub and single-handedly bankrupt CCP. Armies of darkness will march across the face of the earth and puppies will be sad all because of CCP, and .....Marsha Marsha Marsha!

Forgive me if I missed anything.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#620 - 2012-03-06 21:38:15 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
We've never had "Minmatar Assault Ships" or "Amarr Covert Ops", so what isn't arbitrary about these changes?


#***#! **&&$$$! ***$#@@! Shhhhhh Don't remind them.