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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Thought's on general progression and weapons
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Liam Mirren
#21 - 2012-02-16 14:26:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
You realise it's easier to train for a CNR than it is for a Tengu, right? And that said CNR will work better on low SP while being less of a gank target, and is more forgiving if you make a mistake. It's also a lot cheaper and cheaper to fit while being a better allround ship.


And yes, given the fact that the world is full of idiots means this game is full of idiots (it's how I make my isk ingame, taking it from idiots). And idiots will keep repeating memes without actually knowing facts, because we all know that facts are for boring people.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Kraven Stark
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-02-16 14:32:39 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
You realise it's easier to train for a CNR than it is for a Tengu, right? And that said CNR will work better on low SP while being less of a gank target, and more forgiving is you make a mistake. It's also a lot cheaper and cheaper to fit while being a better allround ship.


And yes, given the fact that the world is full of idiots means this game is full of idiots (it's how I make my isk ingame, taking it from idiots). And idiots will keep repeating memes without actually knowing facts. Because we all know that facts are for boring people.


I had a different experience I guess. I attempted to fly one out to a lvl 4 mission and was having my ass handed to me.

I decided to pick up an Tengu and orbit a can and now I am firing on target from just over 100km away and taking little to no damage from an entire room.

I guess it could have been an issue with the fitting, not really sure, but I found the Tengu to be much easier to survive with with the skills I had trained at the time while the plan to round out my CNR training had a few months left.

Ignore me OP and go for the CNR. o7
GF07M8
#23 - 2012-02-16 18:41:32 UTC
Tengu speed/sig/tank > CNR, and doesn't need to cap booster fit to put up a reasonable tank.
Tengu speed/agility/align >> CNR, and doesn't have to sacrifice much tank for a prop mod.
Tengu applied dps against gur/serp/angels/mercs > CNR on all cruiser and bc targets, nevermind frigs. Utilizing drones to swat frigates is the norm, but popping them in 1-2 volleys with a tengu is more time efficient.
Tengu flexibility and usefulness of it's related skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CNR. Heavy missiles, amazing weapon, cruise missiles are shiiiiit. Caldari BS opens up.... Scorp, widow, uh... right. Caldari cruiser opens up... Falcon, Rook, Basilisk, Onyx, Cerb, etc. etc.

tldr: CNR is a relic of the past. You can moderately speed up your mission times by keeping one in every hub you mission in for those few em/therm missions which cannot be blitzed, but that is a ton of effort for little gain. In any other events a tengu blows the CNR away, no contest at all. The only BS as can rival a tengu for sheer overall speed is the macharial, which fit to beat a tengu will end up costing 3x as much.
Liam Mirren
#24 - 2012-02-16 20:01:35 UTC
GF07M8 wrote:
Tengu speed/sig/tank > CNR, and doesn't need to cap booster fit to put up a reasonable tank.
Tengu speed/agility/align >> CNR, and doesn't have to sacrifice much tank for a prop mod.
Tengu applied dps against gur/serp/angels/mercs > CNR on all cruiser and bc targets, nevermind frigs. Utilizing drones to swat frigates is the norm, but popping them in 1-2 volleys with a tengu is more time efficient.
Tengu flexibility and usefulness of it's related skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CNR. Heavy missiles, amazing weapon, cruise missiles are shiiiiit. Caldari BS opens up.... Scorp, widow, uh... right. Caldari cruiser opens up... Falcon, Rook, Basilisk, Onyx, Cerb, etc. etc.

tldr: CNR is a relic of the past. You can moderately speed up your mission times by keeping one in every hub you mission in for those few em/therm missions which cannot be blitzed, but that is a ton of effort for little gain. In any other events a tengu blows the CNR away, no contest at all. The only BS as can rival a tengu for sheer overall speed is the macharial, which fit to beat a tengu will end up costing 3x as much.



- yes it's slower, this is not an issue in the majority of missions and you can fit an AB just fine while still having enough tank
- cap boosters are ofcourse very difficult to use...
- your applied dps against non-guristas is lower, you might have heard of these things called "Rigor Rigs". Lets not even start with Sansha
- you don't NEED to waste volleys on frigates meaning you can keep putting the hurt on the big guys while your drones take care of frigs. I'm kinda baffled how you're trying to make the lack of drones on a tengu sound like a good thing
- Tengu isn't flexible at all, it does kinetic and it tanks therm/kin, end of story
- we're talking about how effective a certain ship is, dragging all kinds of non-issues into it simply means you ran out of arguments but couldn't stop typing




Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
GF07M8
#25 - 2012-02-16 20:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: GF07M8
Liam Mirren wrote:

- yes it's slower, this is not an issue in the majority of missions and you can fit an AB just fine while still having enough tank
- cap boosters are ofcourse very difficult to use...
- your applied dps against non-guristas is lower, you might have heard of these things called "Rigor Rigs". Lets not even start with Sansha
- you don't NEED to waste volleys on frigates meaning you can keep putting the hurt on the big guys while your drones take care of frigs. I'm kinda baffled how you're trying to make the lack of drones on a tengu sound like a good thing
- Tengu isn't flexible at all, it does kinetic and it tanks therm/kin, end of story
- we're talking about how effective a certain ship is, dragging all kinds of non-issues into it simply means you ran out of arguments but couldn't stop typing


-much slower
-cap booster is an annoyance and a big drain on cargo capacity, not using one on a CNR means even worse dps
-you are aware that both ships can use those rigs, right? I was point on the caveat about non-blitzable em/therm missions, but you would be aware that most of them can be sniped and done in a tengu faster than the CNR can lumber to the first gate.
-You say "waste volleys on frigs," like you can simply deploy drones and forget them all the while they kill frigates. Complete bullshit. Drone aggro has to be managed in any mission with triggers and even perfect t2 light drones take 2-3x as long to kill elite frigates and spider drone IIs than a properly rigged tengu. There's no time wasting involved, you pop all frigates in less time than it takes to manage drones and get them on target and then you're on to out-pacing the CNR on every target up to high-sig battleships.
-we're talking about how you're completely incompetent if you believe the CNR is better than the tengu as a pve ship in any scenario outside of this fairy land where you have to shoot sansha battleships all the time.
Liam Mirren
#26 - 2012-02-16 20:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
GF07M8 wrote:
-much slower
-cap booster is an annoyance and a big drain on cargo capacity, not using one on a CNR means even worse dps
-you are aware that both ships can use those rigs, right? I was point on the caveat about non-blitzable em/therm missions, but you would be aware that most of them can be sniped and done in a tengu faster than the CNR can lumber to the first gate.
-You say "waste volleys on frigs," like you can simply deploy drones and forget them all the while they kill frigates. Complete bullshit. Drone aggro has to be managed in any mission with triggers and even perfect t2 light drones take 2-3x as long to kill elite frigates and spider drone IIs than a properly rigged tengu. There's no time wasting involved, you pop all frigates in second and then you're on to out-pacing the CNR on every target up to high-sig battleships.
-we're talking about how you're completely incompetent if you believe the CNR is better than the tengu as a pve ship in any scenario outside of this fairy land where you have to shoot sansha battleships all the time.


- yup, conceded
- why would cargo capacity be an issue, you loot with a noctis and it's not like you actually use 800s a lot
- yup they can and should. You still apply less dps though, you should try using some numbers some times
- doesn't matter, WHILE cruise missiles take care of the big guys you let the drones do the small stuff, not instead of the big targets, which is entirely my point
- again, you might want to start using some proper fits, use chruker to give you some realistic targets and see what numbers roll out.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#27 - 2012-02-16 20:24:58 UTC
Vargur, while you two missile boats are fighting over whose missile is gonna get there first I've already one-shotted several frigs and a cruiser or two.

I have drones too but find I don't use them as often when my ACs pop all the frigates while they're still 20-40km out

And if I really wanted two I know how to manipulate my transversal to nail a NPC dramiel orbiting me at 10km with 800s, and I only am using a T2 TC and only have marauder 3, imagine at 4 or 5 and a shadow serp TC, and a hardwiring implant how good my tracking is =D

The Drake is a Lie
Liam Mirren
#28 - 2012-02-16 20:32:21 UTC
Yeah had the same thing in the Mach, just won't even bother using drones against anything bigger than a frigate. You're waiting so long for your valks to chew down a cruiser it's just agony and instead you pump it full of Fusion and be done with it.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-02-17 00:09:56 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
GF07M8 wrote:
-much slower
-cap booster is an annoyance and a big drain on cargo capacity, not using one on a CNR means even worse dps
-you are aware that both ships can use those rigs, right? I was point on the caveat about non-blitzable em/therm missions, but you would be aware that most of them can be sniped and done in a tengu faster than the CNR can lumber to the first gate.
-You say "waste volleys on frigs," like you can simply deploy drones and forget them all the while they kill frigates. Complete bullshit. Drone aggro has to be managed in any mission with triggers and even perfect t2 light drones take 2-3x as long to kill elite frigates and spider drone IIs than a properly rigged tengu. There's no time wasting involved, you pop all frigates in second and then you're on to out-pacing the CNR on every target up to high-sig battleships.
-we're talking about how you're completely incompetent if you believe the CNR is better than the tengu as a pve ship in any scenario outside of this fairy land where you have to shoot sansha battleships all the time.


- yup, conceded
- why would cargo capacity be an issue, you loot with a noctis and it's not like you actually use 800s a lot
- yup they can and should. You still apply less dps though, you should try using some numbers some times
- doesn't matter, WHILE cruise missiles take care of the big guys you let the drones do the small stuff, not instead of the big targets, which is entirely my point
- again, you might want to start using some proper fits, use chruker to give you some realistic targets and see what numbers roll out.


I actually love this and will only comment with 1 sentence:

Why do 99.99% of the mission runners then use Tengu's and why do I hardly see CNR's around mission hubs?

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Liam Mirren
#30 - 2012-02-17 00:19:08 UTC
Because they all fall for the "OMG bling, it's funky and special! FIT FACTION EVERYWHERE!!!", rather than actually using facts, numbers and making an informed decision. The same reason people say "Caldari for PVE", "Caldari can't PVP" they also say "tengu is king".

Apart from that, by your logic it means that TV programs like X-factor and big brother must be high quality TV, as so many people watch it.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-02-17 00:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Liam Mirren wrote:
Because they all fall for the "OMG bling, it's funky and special! FIT FACTION EVERYWHERE!!!", rather than actually using facts, numbers and making an informed decision. The same reason people say "Caldari for PVE", "Caldari can't PVP" they also say "tengu is king".

Apart from that, by your logic it means that TV programs like X-factor and big brother must be high quality TV, as so many people watch it.



No they fly Tengu's as they are in general the most effective ship to do missions in.
And yes, Caldari still are the kings of PvE (though the distance with the rest is slowly decreasing due to nerfs and buffs).
And whoever says that Caldari can't PvP is utterly stupid, why do we see so many Tengu blobs, why is there always a drake in pvp fleets (and usually when there is 1 drake, there are more), why do manticores are so widely used as stealth bombers, not to mention the new Tier 3 gangs that include naga's.

And yet you haven't given any real numbers why a CNR is better then a Tengu. All you say is you SHOULD use drones to shoot the frigs while my worthless and crappy large missiles shoot at the large targets while a tengu can just shoot both and still fly quicker and in the end finishes missions quicker due to that. Oh and it has better tank, and due too lower sig radius and high speed it takes less damage from rats.

Comming with the but tengu only get BONUS to kinetic is crap, it's a BONUS, means you are not bound to shoot only kinetic.

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Liam Mirren
#32 - 2012-02-17 00:29:06 UTC
If people were willing or capable of checking the actual numbers they'd realise that the Tengu isn't the best missile spammer for missions. It's the EASIEST while being good (if limited) as it perma runs its tank, but not the best if you're willing to put in effort. The numbers, when done correctly, are simply in favour of the CNR. Especially if you take into account that doing Kinetic isn't always the best damage type.

I don't know what else to tell you; the applied dps and mission times are BETTER (apart from the slow boating fact, which may at times be an issue).

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-02-17 00:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Liam Mirren wrote:
If people were willing or capable of checking the actual numbers they'd realise that the Tengu isn't the best missile spammer for missions. It's the EASIEST while being good (if limited) as it perma runs its tank, but not the best if you're willing to put in effort. The numbers, when done correctly, are simply in favour of the CNR. Especially if you take into account that doing Kinetic isn't always the best damage type.

I don't know what else to tell you; the applied dps and mission times are BETTER (apart from the slow boating fact, which may at times be an issue).



And still you haven't given any real numbers why a CNR is better then a Tengu. All you say is you SHOULD use drones to shoot the frigs while my worthless and crappy large missiles shoot at the large targets while a tengu can just shoot both and still fly quicker and in the end finishes missions quicker due to that. Oh and it has better tank, and due too lower sig radius and high speed it takes less damage from rats.

Comming with the but tengu only get BONUS to kinetic is crap, it's a BONUS, means you are not bound to shoot only kinetic.

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Liam Mirren
#34 - 2012-02-17 00:48:19 UTC
Jezus H.


Tengu with 4 CN BCS and T1 kinetic ammo from T2 launchers does 559 dps
CNR, not counting drones, 4 CN BCS and T1 (any type) ammo does 592 dps, adding its hammerheads to that makes it 751 DPS. Using rigor and flares rigs means it'll apply its dps just fine to realistic PVE targets, it loses some dps but manages to stay on top apart from very specific scenarios.

tengu with T2 Fury ammo does 715 dps, more than a CNR without drones less if you DO count the drones. Would that CNR start using T2 ammo it would do more against big targets but not so well against smaller ones, instead would you use faction ammo (which btw is completely defendable, you spend more but the dps increase makes it worth it) then the CNR, again, out DPSes the Tengu.

You know, using EFT, making 2 fits, going into the dps graph thingy while using realistic targets to test it on. It's not exactly a lot of effort, now is it. Don't tell me you never actually really tried it.


It can do any type of dps, it can tank any type of dps without much issue, it has drones, it's cheaper, it's cheaper to fit, it's easier to train for and it's not a gank target that can be killed by 1-2 Tornados. Only downside, it's slow as fck, you have to pay attention a bit and it's not bling.



Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-02-17 01:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Liam Mirren wrote:
Jezus H.


Tengu with 4 CN BCS and T1 kinetic ammo from T2 launchers does 559 dps
CNR, not counting drones, 4 CN BCS and T1 (any type) ammo does 592 dps, adding its hammerheads to that makes it 751 DPS. Using rigor and flares rigs means it'll apply its dps just fine to realistic PVE targets, it loses some dps but manages to stay on top apart from very specific scenarios.

tengu with T2 Fury ammo does 715 dps, more than a CNR without drones less if you DO count the drones. Would that CNR start using T2 ammo it would do more against big targets but not so well against smaller ones, instead would you use faction ammo (which btw is completely defendable, you spend more but the dps increase makes it worth it) then the CNR, again, out DPSes the Tengu.

You know, using EFT, making 2 fits, going into the dps graph thingy while using realistic targets to test it on. It's not exactly a lot of effort, now is it. Don't tell me you never actually really tried it.


It can do any type of dps, it can tank any type of dps without much issue, it has drones, it's cheaper, it's cheaper to fit, it's easier to train for and it's not a gank target that can be killed by 1-2 Tornados. Only downside, it's slow as fck, you have to pay attention a bit and it's not bling.



Another downside, actual mission completion time (as most missions have multiple rooms) is longer as slowboating to next acceleration gate takes longer. Yes Tengu has less raw output, but then again it shoots everything quite effectively (not perfect though), but once it cleared a room it is already waiting at next gate.

And yes, a RL friend tried both out in missions, and actually he did mission more effectively and quick in the Tengu.
True they are bit more expensive and you say they are gank targets, then you are just in wrong spot, my friend and me never actually lost any Tengu while doing missions ever, it's all how and where you fly your expensive ships.

EDIT:

Both have their pro's and con's but don't say Tengu is crap and CNR is better as like said, why do 99.99% of the mission runner use Tengu's as they are better suited for their game style. And not because of your crap argument of that they just fly if for the bling-factor.

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Liam Mirren
#36 - 2012-02-17 01:18:39 UTC
I present numbers, you start back pedalling using anecdotal "evidence". Also you don't realise how people gank a tengu, they don't even ship scan it, they just DO it and expect (more often than not they are correct) to make a profit.

In other words, lots of hearsay and non-controlled "testing" but no actual verifiable numbers or maths.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-02-17 01:24:58 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
I present numbers, you start back pedalling using anecdotal "evidence". Also you don't realise how people gank a tengu, they don't even ship scan it, they just DO it and expect (more often than not they are correct) to make a profit.

In other words, lots of hearsay and non-controlled "testing" but no actual verifiable numbers or maths.


Like I said, we tested it out a while ago, me in tengu, my friend in the CNR and I've netted more after 2 hours of missioning then he did. Sure my ship is more expensive to buy at first, but it pays off more quickly too.

And I know how people gank tengu's, but then again if you are in a system where that happens alot, might want to relocate. My mission runner is in his first ever tengu (about 4 months) and never had any problem with gankers what so ever. Just because I don't pick the main mission hub every other mission runner goes too.

And yes totally agree that with YOUR skills the CNR has better DPS then the Tengu, but that is again with YOUR skills, someone fully skilled in a tengu will get other readouts on EFT.

And all you did prove is that it does more DPS, how about tank, how about speed, how about sig radius (ergo, how hard do those rats hit you), you do know EVE is more then just plain DPS. As from what I see all you did is give numbers on the only part where the CNR wins over the Tengu.

And I can't give numbers as I'm currently on my laptop, so don't have accessibly to my EVEHQ fits etc.

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Liam Mirren
#38 - 2012-02-17 01:35:00 UTC
blahblahblahblah, exactly.

I really like the "yeah it does do more dps but you know that's not really important right now", and then some stuff that doesn't matter at all, I'll still concede to the speed thing ofcourse. Sig radius is entirely unimportant if you can tank more than 1000 dps against guristas.


Honestly, if you had stated "yeah but I like the speed thing" right from the start I'd have stated "yup, you're right" but no, you went all out stating it was better and it just isn't, you can't even RATIONALISE it. Stop giving advice to others on stuff you don't fully KNOW.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-02-17 01:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Liam Mirren wrote:
blahblahblahblah, exactly.

I really like the "yeah it does do more dps but you know that's not really important right now", and then some stuff that doesn't matter at all, I'll still concede to the speed thing ofcourse. Sig radius is entirely unimportant if you can tank more than 1000 dps against guristas.


Honestly, if you had stated "yeah but I like the speed thing" right from the start I'd have stated "yup, you're right" but no, you went all out stating it was better and it just isn't, you can't even RATIONALISE it. Stop giving advice to others on stuff you don't fully KNOW.



Alright mister God who knows it all.

Go tell the thousands of mission runners they are flying the wrong ships. And that you are actually the only one who flies the proper ship for missions and that everybody should reship now.

The OP was asking what a GOOD ship for PvE is, and that still is the Tengu.

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Liam Mirren
#40 - 2012-02-17 02:10:49 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Alright mister God who knows it all.

Go tell the thousands of mission runners they are flying the wrong ships.


I try to, but there's always these clueless idiots who keep spouting unfounded memes while being unable to rationalise it when they can't just talk their way out of it.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.