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Factional Warfare: The ongoing abandonment saga.

Author
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-09-13 01:12:59 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Ciar Meara wrote:
Yes, strangely enough that question got answered rather soon. Perhaps we where not pessimistic enough in our threading?

Maybe we need to start a thread - "I heard that CCP isn't going to give FW any more attention" thread??? Evil


Let's use an analogy to evaluate whether or not that is a silly suggestion.

Meet Bob. Bob has been married to Jane for 8 years. Jane has not slept with Bob in 2 years.

Har and Bob are talking about this at the bar one night.

Har says: "gee Bob, you think Jane isn't going to give your rodgerwilco any more attention???"

How should Bob answer?

-"you're right Har, I wonder about that myself. Maybe I should just wait another 2 years, I'm sure she's working on it but hasn't found the time"

-"If the ice queen hasn't touched it in 2 years, I doubt she ever will. I'm leaving her for a younger more attentive woman"


For anyone not certain, let me help you out. Jane has your money. She has your investment and time. She's betting that instead of inconveniencing yourself with starting a new marriage you will stay with her. You will also stay with her because you can't bring yourself to look in the mirror and say "Jane doesn't love me anymore, she doesn't care about our marriage."

You can't even face the worst part of the truth.
Lately more often than not, Jane hasn't even been at home when you go to bed. She says she's been "working late" Some people have been saying Jane is sleeping with 2 other men behind your back. Some would say Jane has all but told you as much herself.

You are Bob.
You are sad and pathetic.
At the end of the night you'll go home, log on and make sure Jane's car payment went through, and that you put enough money in her account.
Then you'll take whatever pathetic satisfaction you can find by yourself before going to sleep alone just hoping... HOPING that tomorrow, maybe Jane will give a **** about your marriage.

FW? yeah, I'm sure they'll get right on that. CCP loves you and would never do you wrong Bob. Now run along home, who knows, tonight may be the night!!

Roll
Damassys Kadesh
Strix Ridens
Lock Range Enjoyers
#22 - 2011-09-13 01:34:14 UTC
Man I think I'm on the ball with my posting but someone has always beaten me to it. However, my thread is a bit more specific and is thus still legit.

It's directly related to the Devs Answers Thread abandonment and the unanswered FW questions within.

Here is it if you want to have a look:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=9616&find=unread

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-09-13 02:35:56 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Ciar Meara wrote:
Yes, strangely enough that question got answered rather soon. Perhaps we where not pessimistic enough in our threading?

Maybe we need to start a thread - "I heard that CCP isn't going to give FW any more attention" thread??? Evil


Let's use an analogy to evaluate whether or not that is a silly suggestion.

Meet Bob. Bob has been married to Jane for 8 years. Jane has not slept with Bob in 2 years.

Har and Bob are talking about this at the bar one night.

Har says: "gee Bob, you think Jane isn't going to give your rodgerwilco any more attention???"

How should Bob answer?

-"you're right Har, I wonder about that myself. Maybe I should just wait another 2 years, I'm sure she's working on it but hasn't found the time"

-"If the ice queen hasn't touched it in 2 years, I doubt she ever will. I'm leaving her for a younger more attentive woman"


For anyone not certain, let me help you out. Jane has your money. She has your investment and time. She's betting that instead of inconveniencing yourself with starting a new marriage you will stay with her. You will also stay with her because you can't bring yourself to look in the mirror and say "Jane doesn't love me anymore, she doesn't care about our marriage."

You can't even face the worst part of the truth.
Lately more often than not, Jane hasn't even been at home when you go to bed. She says she's been "working late" Some people have been saying Jane is sleeping with 2 other men behind your back. Some would say Jane has all but told you as much herself.

You are Bob.
You are sad and pathetic.
At the end of the night you'll go home, log on and make sure Jane's car payment went through, and that you put enough money in her account.
Then you'll take whatever pathetic satisfaction you can find by yourself before going to sleep alone just hoping... HOPING that tomorrow, maybe Jane will give a **** about your marriage.

FW? yeah, I'm sure they'll get right on that. CCP loves you and would never do you wrong Bob. Now run along home, who knows, tonight may be the night!!

Roll

Out of Pod Experience is that way >>>

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#24 - 2011-09-13 03:19:28 UTC
What I'm curious about is the "why"

Why wouldn't they want to put some resources into faction warfare?

- do they think they don't have any creatieve ideas for it?

- is there a very small number of people they would trust making those types of decisions... is the road block not $ resources, but a bottleneck of a few big picture people's time?

- if so, is that a necessary thing in a coherent game world, or is that a professional failure in the abilty to delegate and trust those delegated to?

I want to understand the organizational barriers to iterating on FW or balancing ships, or tweeking 0.0 sov rules more regularly ... They only have so many teams.. but do all people need to be on the teams... can't there be some guys assigned certain domains that are always there to tweek and only use the teams for executing new feautures that they've been slowly working towards in little tweaks ?

.

Tyraeil Starblade
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-09-13 04:48:26 UTC
All these dev posts elsewhere in the forums, you'd think they'd address this as well.

I love FW for the people, but honestly, the actual gameplay behind it is horribad.
Freako X
Doom Inc
#26 - 2011-09-13 05:16:31 UTC
I recently returned to the game and created this new account. I am hoping it will be a FW character.

I am curious about what is broken ..... Sorry, I didn't see the specifics as I scanned the links. Lots of comments about no attention, but no clear summary of what is wrong.

So, please bear with a noob and share some observations about FW? I still intend on participating, just want some sp before I lose some spendy implants Big smile
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-09-13 05:28:31 UTC
There are bugs with the plex (complex) spawning mechanics (minor, medium and major that FW people fight in), issues of balance of the NPCs and the fact that people just farm the FW missions for isk, whilst those engaging in PvP get nothing from the activity besides a good fight. Throw in the lack of consequences for flipping system ownership and you have a situation where there a lot of people WANTING to participlate in FW, but feeling neglected and wishing that it was more balanced and had more purpose beyond RP (Role Playing).

Damassys Kadesh
Strix Ridens
Lock Range Enjoyers
#28 - 2011-09-13 05:31:01 UTC
Freako X wrote:
I recently returned to the game and created this new account. I am hoping it will be a FW character.

I am curious about what is broken ..... Sorry, I didn't see the specifics as I scanned the links. Lots of comments about no attention, but no clear summary of what is wrong.

So, please bear with a noob and share some observations about FW? I still intend on participating, just want some sp before I lose some spendy implants Big smile


My simple complaint is that it's a feature for easy PvP, but with no incentive to get people out and fighting, and lots to lose if you get blown up.

There are details about the mechanics that I'll let others get into... basically I don't use any of them because all I want to do is PvP, and none of them really help me do that. Plexing is tedious and rewardless (as is flipping systems by doing it) and missioners are evasive carebears. So these primary mechanics don't promote the main basis for the feature... PvP.

As I was writing this, the post above was made... pretty much touches on the same things I said.

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117

Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#29 - 2011-09-13 10:44:23 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:

Out of Pod Experience is that way >>>


I don't think you understand what an analogy is.

Point is, people have been crying to CCP about the problems with FW, and CCP DOESN'T CARE

If they cared they'd answer your thread with answers.

If they cared they wouldn't have stood you up at fan fest.

If they cared, they'd acknowledge your concerns and the fact you pay them money for a game experience you aren't getting.

THEY
DO
NOT
CARE

So keep giving them money to develop other games, because you're all playing the sucker and the fool.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-09-13 10:50:11 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:

Out of Pod Experience is that way >>>


I don't think you understand what an analogy is.

Point is, people have been crying to CCP about the problems with FW, and CCP DOESN'T CARE

If they cared they'd answer your thread with answers.

If they cared they wouldn't have stood you up at fan fest.

If they cared, they'd acknowledge your concerns and the fact you pay them money for a game experience you aren't getting.

THEY
DO
NOT
CARE

So keep giving them money to develop other games, because you're all playing the sucker and the fool.

I don't think you know what sarcasm is...

Many people are paying for a game experience they aren't getting... Lag in null, carebears being griefed in high sec...

Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#31 - 2011-09-13 11:17:52 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:

Out of Pod Experience is that way >>>


I don't think you understand what an analogy is.

Point is, people have been crying to CCP about the problems with FW, and CCP DOESN'T CARE

If they cared they'd answer your thread with answers.

If they cared they wouldn't have stood you up at fan fest.

If they cared, they'd acknowledge your concerns and the fact you pay them money for a game experience you aren't getting.

THEY
DO
NOT
CARE

So keep giving them money to develop other games, because you're all playing the sucker and the fool.

I don't think you know what sarcasm is...

Many people are paying for a game experience they aren't getting... Lag in null, carebears being griefed in high sec...


ccp has taken many measures on multiple occasions to address both of those.

as for FW.... yeah. not so much.

nor will they. but keep writing threads about it and bothering ccp people. we'll see how many lame excuses they can come up with.

wonder what it will be this time: "oh uh, CCP Doesn'texist has been tasked with this but he's real sick with makebelivedisease but as soon as he gets better he'll write you a blog"

in fact, just keep asking me to come up with excuses for CCP. or we can all make them up , make a game of it.

will be about as productive and useful as any response CCP give us because

T
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F
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Mehashi 'Kho
New Eden Motion Pictures
#32 - 2011-09-13 12:15:56 UTC
Damassys Kadesh wrote:

My simple complaint is that it's a feature for easy PvP, but with no incentive to get people out and fighting, and lots to lose if you get blown up.

There are details about the mechanics that I'll let others get into... basically I don't use any of them because all I want to do is PvP, and none of them really help me do that. Plexing is tedious and rewardless (as is flipping systems by doing it) and missioners are evasive carebears. So these primary mechanics don't promote the main basis for the feature... PvP.

As I was writing this, the post above was made... pretty much touches on the same things I said.


I have recently joined FW and love it, though there are definitely things that need focusing on.

People need to be able to afford ships to risk them in pvp. With no financial reward to plexing, and very limited income from looting pvp (tends to go to people who lost ships so those who didnt don't get to build up a buffer to cover their next losses), it is no suprise people run the missions. As for carebears, what do you mean? people who only run missions and don't pew at all? I haven't met one yet. Or do you mean people who won't engage a WT mission invader in their non-tanked, no point stealth bomber? Because that would be dumb. Or do you simply think anything that isn't pvp is carebearing? Such a stupid term and everyone uses it a different way to include the bunch of people they want to look down on for not playing the same way as them so it really needs clarification.

As for the missions there seem to be some balance issues, though I believe the pay rate is pretty spot-on. As gal we get ecm'd hard by the cal npcs and require teamwork to do our missions. Almost every day i'll see a Cal out soloing a mission, the pervailing thought seems to be that the damping our npcs use is much easier to overcome. Personally I like the teamwork, we get to practice commands, maneuvers, get used to each others voices/playstyles, all things that will be of benefit when working together in fleet pvp, and in fairness I do still see 2-3 man squads of cal out as well as the solo-ers, but that balance theme has been bought up in conversation so many times in my short time here that it is clearly commonly felt.

The plexing leaves a lot to be desired, and as it is now serves no real purpose except RP. The main group I see running plexes seem to use it as a way of attracting pvp and sometimes they get good fights, but then with no rewards for taking part and risking their ships you will sure enough see them out on a mission run soon after any real loss.

Fundamentally if you want more people pew pewing more often then they have to have a way of affording to do so and the vague income from pvp and lack of anything for plexing are simply not good enough in my eyes to maintain a constant presence on the battlefield. If we made ISK from pew pew that could sufficiently cover our losses and future purchases I don't think you'd see as many of us running missions to pay for our toys, if ever.
Damassys Kadesh
Strix Ridens
Lock Range Enjoyers
#33 - 2011-09-13 18:07:24 UTC
Mehashi 'Kho wrote:
People need to be able to afford ships to risk them in pvp. With no financial reward to plexing, and very limited income from looting pvp (tends to go to people who lost ships so those who didnt don't get to build up a buffer to cover their next losses), it is no suprise people run the missions. As for carebears, what do you mean? people who only run missions and don't pew at all? I haven't met one yet. Or do you mean people who won't engage a WT mission invader in their non-tanked, no point stealth bomber? Because that would be dumb. Or do you simply think anything that isn't pvp is carebearing? Such a stupid term and everyone uses it a different way to include the bunch of people they want to look down on for not playing the same way as them so it really needs clarification.


I have encountered many mission runners in my time that only do missions and that I never see PvPing. I consider those characters to be carebears and obviously it's annoying to see war targets that could be fighting but aren't. Cloaky T3s, cloaky insta-warping Ishtar, Stealth-Bombers galore... you bring up something interesting there... SBs seem to be the ship of choice for missions but they're generally can't turn around and engage in PvP. Plus they can just cloak and become invulnerable (as can the rest of the missions ships I listed) as long as the pilot doesn't make a mistake. A change they should look at is making missions, and even plexes, more friendly to fully PvP-fit ships. You shouldn't even have to consider refitting a PvP ship in order to complete them more easily. The PvE should be a minor extra to keep you busy while you wait for enemy players.

Also, I gave up plexing after the Caldari WON the war :P, but I keep hearing now that people plex intensely after downtime when they respawn. Downtime is 4am for me here on the west coast of Canada... so that makes it pretty useless to me.

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117

Mehashi 'Kho
New Eden Motion Pictures
#34 - 2011-09-13 19:10:38 UTC
Damassys Kadesh wrote:
A change they should look at is making missions, and even plexes, more friendly to fully PvP-fit ships. You shouldn't even have to consider refitting a PvP ship in order to complete them more easily. The PvE should be a minor extra to keep you busy while you wait for enemy players.

I like the idea of that, it is frustrating when between 2 or 3 of you none are fitted for combat when it lands on your door*. Sadly there are very valid reasons as it is now for us using the speed tank/sb combo (ability to make it to and from the location, dps to bring down the commanders etc etc) and for why we rarely engage in missions when using this combo (speed tanker has full room aggro, sb's only need be targeted and they fall apart with fear). I don't think I agree that pve should only exist just to keep you busy, but my disagreement only relates to the neccessity of making isk to continue pew pew as it is now. If it was possible to make isk, in a pvp fitted ship, doing only pvp or missions pvp fitted (please remember a rookie like me still struggles to break even in pvp, even with a good k/d ratio) I would be right behind you, and missions would be kinda like plexes, just another way to attract the fights we all joined up for, in which case they would be completely optional as regarding the need for isk to pew. :)

If the state paid you to kill me, and the federation paid me to kill you for example I am guessing we would both be happier bunnies, or at least something more along that line to make the pew self sustaining.

*especially when you spent an hour or two roaming without finding a fight before deciding to go make some money! 3 or 4 times now for me!
Damassys Kadesh
Strix Ridens
Lock Range Enjoyers
#35 - 2011-09-13 19:39:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Damassys Kadesh
Mehashi 'Kho wrote:
I don't think I agree that pve should only exist just to keep you busy, but my disagreement only relates to the neccessity of making isk to continue pew pew as it is now.


I think they could simply grant loyalty points or eve straight isk for completing a plex. I don't mean to say there should be less isk-making, just less NPCs... the two don't have to be hand-in-hand.

Without spending much time on this thought, it could be something like this:

Plexes:
-one wave of NPCs to clear initially, in order to hold the timer position (no respawning, one wave, then no more NPC interference)
-if no players show up, you run the timer down and are rewarded a good amount of LP
-if you are bored during the countdown, you can choose to spawn more NPCs (with some form of desirable loot) by approaching some object on the grid, or maybe these optional NPCs could be guarding a secondary structure on the grid that contains some good loot, and you have to go manually get their aggression
-this way, you have to do a small amount of PvE to take the plex, but you can decide how much additional PvE you want to do based on how much player activity is nearby... if you have late-wave agro in a plex, it puts you at a huge PvP disadvantage, and thus discourages PvP, producing the opposite result from what is intended

Missions:
I don't know nearly as much about missions... just make them more objective-based and less need for tank so that you don't have to change your PvP fit, and no accel gates to insulate you several grids from potential player-threats entering your mission

Basically in both cases, you should be able to (if not forced to) be ready for PvP regardless of what is going on inside

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#36 - 2011-09-14 00:02:18 UTC
I think its going to be hard to make mission running pvp. I'm either fitting for pvp or I am fitting for pve. Mixing the 2 just means I'm well fit for either and giving my pvp opponents an advantage.

But they clearly could make plexing pvp. See my signature for a way that would work. (let players know where and when plexes are entered so they can fight for them before the timer runs and remove npcs)

After they correct the occupancy plexing mechanic so it is pvp instead of pve they could increase the pay for occupancy plexing.

The occupancy plexxing would then be the greatest thing in eve.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-09-14 02:04:13 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I think its going to be hard to make mission running pvp. I'm either fitting for pvp or I am fitting for pve. Mixing the 2 just means I'm well fit for either and giving my pvp opponents an advantage.

But they clearly could make plexing pvp. See my signature for a way that would work. (let players know where and when plexes are entered so they can fight for them before the timer runs and remove npcs)

After they correct the occupancy plexing mechanic so it is pvp instead of pve they could increase the pay for occupancy plexing.

The occupancy plexxing would then be the greatest thing in eve.

Is not the Incursion mechanics effectively a form of missioning done with PvP setups?

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#38 - 2011-09-14 05:13:07 UTC
Diomedes Calypso wrote:
What I'm curious about is the "why"




I think the answer is: because they work in technology. People who work in technology often don't get it. Look at Bill Gates.


FW is the obvious way to showcase the rich solo and small scale pvp this game can offer. Yet they miss the boat and produce more ways to shoot red crosses and dress up.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#39 - 2011-09-14 05:17:06 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I think its going to be hard to make mission running pvp. I'm either fitting for pvp or I am fitting for pve. Mixing the 2 just means I'm well fit for either and giving my pvp opponents an advantage.

But they clearly could make plexing pvp. See my signature for a way that would work. (let players know where and when plexes are entered so they can fight for them before the timer runs and remove npcs)

After they correct the occupancy plexing mechanic so it is pvp instead of pve they could increase the pay for occupancy plexing.

The occupancy plexxing would then be the greatest thing in eve.

Is not the Incursion mechanics effectively a form of missioning done with PvP setups?


I haven't done incursions so I am not 100% sure. But:
I don't think they fit any points and webs when they do incursions. Nor do I think they are particularly analizing the tracking speed of their guns vis a vis their opponents. Nor the speed of their ships. If I am right on this, incursions have very little to do with pvp as I know it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2011-09-14 05:30:23 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I think its going to be hard to make mission running pvp. I'm either fitting for pvp or I am fitting for pve. Mixing the 2 just means I'm well fit for either and giving my pvp opponents an advantage.

But they clearly could make plexing pvp. See my signature for a way that would work. (let players know where and when plexes are entered so they can fight for them before the timer runs and remove npcs)

After they correct the occupancy plexing mechanic so it is pvp instead of pve they could increase the pay for occupancy plexing.

The occupancy plexxing would then be the greatest thing in eve.

Is not the Incursion mechanics effectively a form of missioning done with PvP setups?


I haven't done incursions so I am not 100% sure. But:
I don't think they fit any points and webs when they do incursions. Nor do I think they are particularly analizing the tracking speed of their guns vis a vis their opponents. Nor the speed of their ships. If I am right on this, incursions have very little to do with pvp as I know it.

Tracking speed is a HUGE issue in incursions, hence people do fit tracking enhancers/computers/links, webs and target painters are also known to appear. Some people might even fit a scram, but this is less known. Low sec incursion fleets are also sometimes seen with a few long points in case someone tries to go gcc on them...
When I do incursions, I take my incursion setup loki - I use the bonus to web range to slow the targets down for the other ships to use. Bhalgorns, Paladins, Kronos' and Vindicators are often used for similar reasons.
I also use 220s to get better tracking on the targets vs 425s...