Warfare & Tactics

Another brilliant contribution to the discussion Gala. FW would be lost without you as part of our think tank.

Im just going to throw out some ideas about what I think might be some good fixes to FW with out having to revamp the whole thing like CCP seems to be implying. I almost completely disagree with CCP wanting to use us as a "test" bed for Sov Warfare. Instead I think a few smaller changes can be made to really make FW shine.


1. We don't need our own CMS special elected leaders for FW. We need a person that speaks for us on the current and future CMSs. If we cant put aside our differences and work towards a better FW and get some one on the CMS that will speak for us I would hate to see what our own so called leaders of FW would be like. Mostly I see a group joining FW with tons of alts to take over elections and just ruin it because they can. I would like to see FW as drama free as possible for corps that want to join for the PvP.

2. We don't need to be the test bed for Alliance Sov Warfare. I would rather see there being a small impact with factions conquering space but if it becomes a matter of "leaders" making choices for the Faction like Alliance leaders make for Alliances I see FW getting trolled more often then not. Currently we fight because we enjoy fighting. If we get some kinda Faction "leaders" that run the whole thing on some power trip I don't see things ending well. With such low voter count its way to easy to "fix" elections with such a small player base in FW. A 3000 man alliance joining for the lullz of crushing it all into the ground and then leaving would be something I could see happening. Basically I don't think Militia should be treated like an Alliance, I don't mind Alliances joining but they shouldn't be able to have any true "control" over the faction.

3. I like the Alliances joining FW part of the patch and don't see it having a huge impact one way or the other (As long as we don't become a test bed or have our own "special" elections). Corps already work together closely like a very loose alliance. At most this allows for corps in FW to band together a bit easier. Since FW is well established at this point I hope that any single FW faction could handle a big alliance moving in. I don't see it forever changing the carefree shoot everything that moves nature that is FW in its current form.

4. Plexing - Remove the current rats all together, no need for them to be there. Plexing should have a reason more then standings. I think a good fix here would be to have Plexing effect LP payout (More controllable systemed own the more LP reward for missions). Also if an agent is in a conquered system, they no longer give out missions. Other then that plexing is kinda nice since it restricts ship types (maybe a change to not allow faction ships in minors but not 100% needed). I also think that if a system is going vulnerable that Militia chat should be spammed with a auto counter every 15 min telling what system and when it will coming open to attack by having some kinda reinforce timer. Currently there is little time to prep for a system being conquerable or easy way to find out about it. If conquering systems becomes important there should be a quick easy way to find out when and where your militia should be defending or attacking.

5. Missions - Give them Sleeper AI and make it a fleet event. I think this would stop people from farming missions just for isk and never having a real reason to join in the PvP. You can become rich with out ever shooting another player and do it from the safety of a stealth bomber and interceptor currently.

I don't mind the single minded nature of the missions. Fly in kill somethings and get out is IMHO awesome and I think that theme should stay but I don't think the rats should be so easily handled by a SB and Cepter. If they had Better AI, where made more fair across the board, and focused on forcing players to move a fleet through Lowsec. You would have more fights coming out of them and less people joining FW just to farm the easy isk. Currently they are super easy and do nothing but make me rich in the game. The potential is there for so much more.

A Sleeper AI along with a reward bump for doing the missions would make people actually have to fly a fleet out to lowsec and roam around. Currently you only have fleets roaming around looking for other fleets. If scouts don't find anything to kill no one goes out. There are allot of fights don't get me wrong but if we had people having to fleet up and head out into lowsec with a fleet to face off with Sleeper AI they can also stand and fight most lowsec gangs and actually draw more people out of stations into fleets which in turn will cause more PvP. The idea behind Missions should not only be to fund your PvP but to also provide something to do while you look for a fight and also be a catalyst for creating PvP.

Level 1 - 4 should be like a class 1 - 4 wormholes possibly Class 2 - 5 wormholes depending on mission payouts. Force players to bring logi, ECM, ECCM, DPS and tactics. Make the missions simular for all sides so no one joins a faction just to farm the easier rats. Missions should be about getitng into fights and making enough isk while doing it to make it worth while.

The more small gangs of 5 to 20 people we have roaming lowsec the better IMHO. I also think it would give something to do while you are roaming looking for a fight. Might as well make some money and have a reason to roam all around FW space.

I like the idea of having everyone pick up lots of missions like it currently is but the take over of systems should limit your ability to do so and having Hisec agents giving much lower pay out to make control of systems matter. Still having a good amount of agents in highsec is need (possibly more then currently) to allow for a factions best money supply to be protect in a way but still hurt.

Thank you for your time

Frozen Fallout

Although FF has good ideas I disagree on the missioning part.

The missions do not need to be altered. If you have ever run any other type of 00 pirate missions, its the same thing, same risk, etc. In FW the risk is actually even greater due to the fact the mission pops on overview.

FW missions also take a long time to complete (not the objective but to do the mission)

The travel time in FW missions is what justifies the return on isk. Missions in 00 are simply 1-2 or 0 jumps out from your contact. You do an objective rinse and repeat.

The FW missions are fine. No AI adjustment needed

What needs to change is the REASON to do FW pvp, by linking the system with LP us exactly what needs to happen. Make plexes the reason to fight. The concept of plexes is AWESOME.

I know from my days in Gal Mil we stopped roaming and started delibertly camping minor plexes to get fights. Were there blobs, sure but the fights were awesome and the ships balanced.

I think plexes should have a limit or a counter balance number that can enter determined by how many people are in the plex. Id you dont want it to turn to sov warefare, LIMITING the blob is what needs to happen in these plexes.

I also think captured system should shut out ALL services in stations. You want people to HAVE to fight.

The more effects you allow on the opposing faction the more fighting will take place for the shear harassment and tears to be enjoyed, which is called EVE

FW is actually very simple if you use the plexes as the core method of pvp in FW. Dont mess with the rats, dont mess with the missions, just change one thing the way the system is capped due to plexing and the results from it.


PS sorry for spelling toddler sitting on my lap

Making billions of isk in a night is an over statement.

At best when I used to run them with Dop, Saidra and others it would take about 4 hours to make enough isk to get a Domi

The Domi would sell around 360-400m but the cost to get the domi was what 80m or so.

The time investment is fine for the isk, the point I agree on is the isk faucet however fixing it so capping a system locks out an agent or greatly reduces the LP is what stops people from missioning.

I see no problem with having people "locked out" of a stations services, as they can always go a couple jumps to high. It forces them to fight. If they leave, good then they werent really there for the pvp.

Just like in all alliances in 00 if someone is getting rofl stomped they move into another systme. Same thing will happen to FW however by making systems lock down and virtually remove all station benefits as well as fw mission benefits you make fw an alliance (both faction vs both faction) instead of cheap thrills at best.

Reason to fight = griefing others and protecting your isk

fight over resources always brings war

I have made well over a billion isk in one night of solo running level 4s in an Ishtar before I could take 6 missions at once. Depending on how you do it and what faction you are in you can make way to much isk for almost no risk. If I was a Caldari I could have done the same with a SB solo. If you dual or Tri box and do it right you can make billions of isk in a night with out a problem. Im not saying that everyone in FW can do this but the isk farmers know how easy it is to make the isk off FW missions.

The point is they are too easy to make them meaning full with out changing them. Just making them worth doing doesn't make them any better. People already do them for the crazy isk. If you put more meaning into them with out any changes more people will just do them the price on Navy T1 ships will keep coming down like they are and does nothing to fix them. And you cant get much easier of a mission then FW missions. Even if you lock people out of systems theres always hisec missions agents for FW and you will never stop the hoards of alts from doing missions if they are so easy. Besides if its all about locking out stations to stop the Isk farmers all the farmers will just join the winning factions and because the losses will have so little isk compared to the other side and smaller numbers keeping systems which requires little PvP currently to do it will just be a PvEers dream rather then PvPers Dream.

Also I don't want us to be like 0.0 so locking us out of a station does just that. Make it more like 0.0. Although I don't fully disagree that having a station lock out of some kind wouldn't force us to fight but I think there are better ways of doing it that can be tried first before we start locking people out of a station in Empire. The idea does have appeal though as it does make sense that an enemy faction wouldn't like you dock in there space.

but you must dual or triple box, if your willing to do that then you are really making that money over TWO characters not one.

When EVE starts gimping my isk because someone wants to dual or triple box and then say "that is the norm" is balogne.

What is the normal amount of isk you can generate with ONE account, and for the record the ishtar would die if FW was populated more.

I remember jumping through a gate in a gila....and it dieing in a blaze of fire due to a roam. Thats what happens when you do it solo, real risk.

Dual boxing and triple boxing is not solo

Solo if I was a squid I could make about the same as my Ishtar with warp while cloak which is better then the Ishtar with the mwd cloak trick. I could easly make a billion isk in one sitting completely solo no dual boxing. I would think the Caldari could do about the same with even less risk. It comes down to NPCs and ships that can do the missions. Even doing it with a friend I make about the same with a cepter and SB or 2. With a cepters and an SB we normally do a set or two of missions netting us a half billion+ worth of isk in under 3 to 5 hours of work. Its just to easy for the risk which is almost none if you are in warp while cloak ships and cepters. Even the Ishtar with mwd and cloak is almost impossible to catch with out a good cepter bumping ship with a gate camp.

And its not just about be able to solo or dual box them its about how damn easy they are for the risk involved. If you say had to actually bring a small fleet to actually do the mission you would have a chance for PvP but the way it is now I don't think I have seen any mission running fleets of SBs and cepters go after anything other then the very odd gank. Almost every time they cloak up and run and hide. Not even a chance at really catching one mission running fleet unless your lucky and they are stupid,

The point is they are just to damn easy as they are which is why there are 6000 people in Caldari militia and only 100 PvPers. Make them a fleet activity and you will have more PvPers and less PvEers IMHO.

I do agree that FW mission running has taken a hit for isk per hour and there are better isk per hour activities out there. I also agree that its not that bad as it currently is. I also agree that over time it has become much less isk per hour and Incursions are great isk. I also think that its just going to get worse as Navy T1 BSs continue to flood the market.

The thing about FW missions isn't that there is better isk per hour its that the effort is much less compared to other tasks. You mention Lvl 5 missions. I don't know very many 1 year characters running Level 5 missions solo or duo. I have seen and worked with many young characters (or alts) that joined FW and made tons of isk with little effort. Incursions take a small gang and has the new AI which I think FW should have.

I don't want to nerf the missions so that people cant make money and I don't really want to make them harder per say. Keep the theme of Warp in kill a couple things and leave with out salvaging or dealing with the left over rats. But get rid of the one faction is easier to farm then the other and make them omni damage and omni ewar (ECM, Web, Scram, Neut, ect). Give them the new AI so the cepter SB no longer works and people start running them with small fleets. Bump up the pay out so that its still worth doing even with 5 to 10 guys. Getting more fleets running around lowsec is just asking for PvP. It shouldn't hurt the bottom line just the fact that now there is risk and more PvP to be had for all in FW lowsec.

One thing I would like to say quick is that I don't think FW sucks in its current form. I actually like it allot and with the new patch I think some of the fixes have made it even better. I just see allot of potential with small tweeks to the current system to foster more of a PvP environment then a PvE environment.

I guess I just see adding the new AI as a simple elegant solution.

Those are just excuses to keep the farming going. Whats so horrible about having the new AI in missions other then "I don't want to" or "I like the lazy isk I make." Saying races should hold true to their EW just because the old AI did it that way and it sucked isn't a good reason to keep it. You have to admit the old AI is horrible and sure they will never get rid of it for fear the hisec mission farmers will stop playing but the new AI is much better and I haven't heard a good reason for not including it in FW missions. Also I don't see why a Caldari ship should have to be restricted to Caldari damage types and EW when clearly they aren't. Just because the old system had that restriction doesn't make it true, just proves how sad the old system was. Any ship in this game can have any kind of tank, EW, and damage types. I don't see why NPCs should always be restricted by such an out dated AI.

Doing level 4 missions with a bomber and inty is bullshit and needs to be nerfed. Those ships are essentially 0 risk for someone who isnt asleep at their keyboard. Cloaky T3s suck too, but its possible to catch them at least on occasion.

Bottom line, the lucrative part of FW should not be set up to favor non-fighting carebears, or if it does, they should have to fly real ships to do the missions. So there is some risk. The system needs to reward PVP - which is the reason for FW, and right now, it doesnt.