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Nerfing Caldari?

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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#201 - 2012-01-18 16:50:46 UTC
The drake is popular precisely because it is not in line with the caracal or the raven. Why fly a caracal when you can fly a rupture, arbitrator, or thorax. Any of those ships completley out class it, as does the stabber and the maller tbh. The raven is complete garbage for pvp in today's meta compared to every other BS out there.

Perhaps before bringing the drake 'in line' with the caracal and raven, the caracal and raven could be brought 'in line' with their non-caldari equivalents?

As it stands there are 3 reasons to train caldari. Drake, Tengu, Falcon. (Rook and scorp get honorable mention).
Putting aside the recons (as all recons of all races are awesome) that leaves the Drake and the tengu.
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#202 - 2012-01-18 16:58:46 UTC
Not-Apsalar wrote:

You really think they'll up the damage and rof for HAMs? Did you see what they did to the Naga? Once they saw that it would actually be a pretty good ship with torps they removed the capability of the ship to fit it. Now it's just another Caldari rail sniper ultimately destined for the back end of everyone's hangar because of broken warp mechanics and better Minmatar ships of the same class with better weaponry, speed, sig, and align time. It's going to be a heavy missile only bonus if anything, and if many of the people here had their way it would be another useless rail platform



Um..... I believe they moved away from torps because few people would fly a short range missile boat with a paper thin tank that doesn't apply immediate damage after locking. Think about the reason that the tornado is the most popular tier 3 by far, even though you can get higher sustained dps with the other tier 3 ships.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#203 - 2012-01-18 17:03:04 UTC
octahexx Charante wrote:
ccp...maybe you should check some facts before you eat out of the hand of csm...caldari overpowered?
yeah every fleet in null is not minmatar or amarr...its caldari the ravens and the feared pvp scorpion and feroxes are ruling the nullsec...we dont have anyway of stopping these overpowered pvp gods of eve.


the tengu and the drake is the only reason anyone would ever skill caldari so if you wanna kill that entire race nerf it because nobody will skill from kestrel to tengu.

maybe you should stop doing "nerfs" at random and thereby screwing up all the races...nerfing is what led you here in the first place..random whacks with the bat until everything is crap...and the if a ship is not crap and actually can do anything its op and needs the bat.....can you see the pattern here?

whack-a-mole nerfing and try to hit anything functional that popsup because everything else keeps getting pushed down.



Hi you seem new here, Its not a nerf its a change, your ship is only getting your bonuses changed, the sad thing is you all will keep bitching till they leave them the same and DO NERF the stats of the hull. So keep it up, don't learn how to take advantage of the new bonuses and get use to the ship falling at you stupid lvl 4's

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#204 - 2012-01-18 17:08:26 UTC
I started EVE 3 years ago when my work mate told me about ECM. I wanted to do ECM and fly a Scorpion. In a fleet, I don't have a lot of tank as my mids are full of ECM mods and once I get primaried it's all over. However, I still have a lot of fun.

It's not the only reason I play but Nerf ECM, and Tengus and to a less extent Drakes, then I'm pretty much done. It's what I like to do so if I can't do it there are lots of other things to play.

Instead of Nerfing stuff what not just make other things stronger???
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#205 - 2012-01-18 17:11:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The drake is popular precisely because it is not in line with the caracal or the raven. Why fly a caracal when you can fly a rupture, arbitrator, or thorax. Any of those ships completley out class it, as does the stabber and the maller tbh. The raven is complete garbage for pvp in today's meta compared to every other BS out there.

Perhaps before bringing the drake 'in line' with the caracal and raven, the caracal and raven could be brought 'in line' with their non-caldari equivalents?

As it stands there are 3 reasons to train caldari. Drake, Tengu, Falcon. (Rook and scorp get honorable mention).
Putting aside the recons (as all recons of all races are awesome) that leaves the Drake and the tengu.


Um the 3 ships you named don't project there damage 100k. Also with there close range missiles they do come close in alpha.
The Caldari are a range over damage race, and the caracal and raven are some of there few ships that do good damage and have good range. Also you left out the naga, rohk, and ferox 2 of them still tank well, but don't do good damage, and one dose good damge at range with no tank.
Your opinion of witch ships are worth it is just that. Sorry you can only be successful with the 2 most OP ships in there class.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Not-Apsalar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2012-01-18 17:14:54 UTC
Fidelium Mortis wrote:
Not-Apsalar wrote:




Um..... I believe they moved away from torps because few people would fly a short range missile boat with a paper thin tank that doesn't apply immediate damage after locking. Think about the reason that the tornado is the most popular tier 3 by far, even though you can get higher sustained dps with the other tier 3 ships.


Let's say that's the real answer for the sake of debate. How is that different from a bomber? A torp raven? Why not give people the choice to fit as they like? If they took away ships/the ability of ships to fit racial weapons when it wasn't optimal because of something minor, like lack of tank, you'd have maybe a dozen ships in the game.

Of course we know the reason they got rid of it is because they didn't want torp nagas taking out installations and wiping out alpha bs fleets well inside their optimals with decent enough transversals

Part of the reason the Tornado is the most popular tier 3 is because arty is the best weapons platform for range skirmish pvp, and most pvp battles are skirmishes, not sustained engagements. It doesn't hurt that arty canes, maelstroms, and tempests are as ingrained in pvp as drakes are.
octahexx Charante
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2012-01-18 17:17:37 UTC



[/quote]
Hi you seem new here, Its not a nerf its a change, your ship is only getting your bonuses changed, the sad thing is you all will keep bitching till they leave them the same and DO NERF the stats of the hull. So keep it up, don't learn how to take advantage of the new bonuses and get use to the ship falling at you stupid lvl 4's[/quote]

yeah meme talk shows how leet you are dude.
the only thing a drake can do that most other bcs cant do is wormholes and pve with its giant tank and slow dps.
if you think drakes are pvp op you have to be delusional...or be running those lvl4s your talking about..it sucks in pvp you need turrets for insta damage.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#208 - 2012-01-18 17:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The drake is popular precisely because it is not in line with the caracal or the raven. Why fly a caracal when you can fly a rupture, arbitrator, or thorax. Any of those ships completley out class it, as does the stabber and the maller tbh. The raven is complete garbage for pvp in today's meta compared to every other BS out there.

Perhaps before bringing the drake 'in line' with the caracal and raven, the caracal and raven could be brought 'in line' with their non-caldari equivalents?

As it stands there are 3 reasons to train caldari. Drake, Tengu, Falcon. (Rook and scorp get honorable mention).
Putting aside the recons (as all recons of all races are awesome) that leaves the Drake and the tengu.


Um the 3 ships you named don't project there damage 100k. Also with there close range missiles they do come close in alpha.
The Caldari are a range over damage race, and the caracal and raven are some of there few ships that do good damage and have good range. Also you left out the naga, rohk, and ferox 2 of them still tank well, but don't do good damage, and one dose good damge at range with no tank.
Your opinion of witch ships are worth it is just that. Sorry you can only be successful with the 2 most OP ships in there class.

Ahahahahahahaaa hahahaha ahahahhaaaaa..... Oh wait you're serious. AHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA *sob*

Fly a cruise raven or 100km caracal in pvp. Go ahead, do it in any fleet size, be it solo 10 man, 20 man, or 100 man.
1) Tell me if you actually get on any killmails before the primary is dead
2) Enjoy getting laughed out of every single remotely decent pvp corp for trying to bring a raven to pvp.
3) See 2 again. Trying to snipe with missiles rofl.

Edit: I didn't see that you mentioned the ferox.
[The poster was unable to complete his edit because he suffered a stroke from fits of spasmic laughter]
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#209 - 2012-01-18 17:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
Ok to quote you need to do it from thr forum page or put a name back in to make obvious who you quoting.
They have been fine in PvP and will be better now. Instant damage is less needed for engagements longer than 5 mins.
Its one of the highest used PvP ships. Them doing lvl 4's is a mistake, no other BC can on there tank alone.

For your cookie cutter en mass fleets, probably not will always be ether alpha or armor tank.

For any one that dose faction war or small scale PvP, or operates out of low sec yes they get used, you have kills of them on your board, and those ships have kills with those hulls. Buy your own history your words are false potato...

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#210 - 2012-01-18 17:29:27 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:

Instead of Nerfing stuff what not just make other things stronger??? [/b]

You do know that strength (or weakness) is always relative, right? Cool

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Jaari Val'Dara
Grim Sleepers
#211 - 2012-01-18 18:25:08 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
The drake is popular precisely because it is not in line with the caracal or the raven. Why fly a caracal when you can fly a rupture, arbitrator, or thorax. Any of those ships completley out class it, as does the stabber and the maller tbh. The raven is complete garbage for pvp in today's meta compared to every other BS out there.

Perhaps before bringing the drake 'in line' with the caracal and raven, the caracal and raven could be brought 'in line' with their non-caldari equivalents?

As it stands there are 3 reasons to train caldari. Drake, Tengu, Falcon. (Rook and scorp get honorable mention).
Putting aside the recons (as all recons of all races are awesome) that leaves the Drake and the tengu.


Um the 3 ships you named don't project there damage 100k. Also with there close range missiles they do come close in alpha.
The Caldari are a range over damage race, and the caracal and raven are some of there few ships that do good damage and have good range. Also you left out the naga, rohk, and ferox 2 of them still tank well, but don't do good damage, and one dose good damge at range with no tank.
Your opinion of witch ships are worth it is just that. Sorry you can only be successful with the 2 most OP ships in there class.

Ahahahahahahaaa hahahaha ahahahhaaaaa..... Oh wait you're serious. AHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA *sob*

Fly a cruise raven or 100km caracal in pvp. Go ahead, do it in any fleet size, be it solo 10 man, 20 man, or 100 man.
1) Tell me if you actually get on any killmails before the primary is dead
2) Enjoy getting laughed out of every single remotely decent pvp corp for trying to bring a raven to pvp.
3) See 2 again. Trying to snipe with missiles rofl.

Edit: I didn't see that you mentioned the ferox.
[The poster was unable to complete his edit because he suffered a stroke from fits of spasmic laughter]



Graph I made:
http://i.imgur.com/ARn0D.png

Heavy missiles can go for 15 seconds. Depending on how far you are from target and how long the fight is taking it shows how much your actually damage is reduced.
As you can see with maximum range and 1 minute long fight damage is reduced by 25%. In any sufficiently big fleet, withstanding alpha for 1 minute isn't an easy achievement. Even for 2 minutes it's still 12.5% reduced damage.
Alaric Faelen
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#212 - 2012-01-18 18:33:20 UTC
It's disturbing to see CCP say the Drake does everything 'too too well'

They mustn't actually play their own game. I'm the first to admit it's a win-button in PvE like mission running. That's not the Drake's fault- that is the nature of the game's NPC generation- and really apples and oranges. Against NPC's there's a known damage type to tank and deliver, everytime.

In actual PvP, the Drake is just another BC. It's got good tank, but it's often dead by the time your third volley even reaches their targets. I've flown Canes and Drakes and really haven't noticed much difference in the speed at which they can be killed by player weapons.
It's also horrifically slow, difficult to align and GTFO when thing go pear-shaped on you, and often is effectively removed from combat for long periods in exchange for the 15 seconds it's shield will last against sustained fire. That big passive takes forever to recharge unlike active rep ships which can fight, escape, heal, then rejoin the fight right away.
Unless you can dock or get a shield repper on site, a Drake is a ship you might actively be fighting in a small fraction of the time you spend in it just aligning, warping about, and recharging the shield.

Now that I've fought the tier 3 BC's with my Drake, I know it's not at all hard to drop Drakes, from whatever range you thought the Drake was safe in.

If anything, the tier 3 BC's widened the gap between missile and gun weapons in PvP. The name of the game has been gigantic alpha strikes- and no missile ship has that. A Drake is always going to receive damage before it deals it. If it comes down to a foot race of DPS, the Drake is always playing catch up.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2012-01-18 18:46:56 UTC
Not-Apsalar wrote:


There is a trade off. It's called delayed DPS, difficulty with faster smaller ships, high susceptibility to ECM, single damage type ammunition, no damage bonuses against common pvp resist holes, tech 2 ammo issues, high sig before and after fitting(easily highest in the class with standard fittings), slow align, etc.


Delayed DPS.....non-issue unless you're looking for an alpha-gank boat but, that's not really what I consider PVP. That's clubing baby seals.

Difficulty with faster smaller ships: Try tracking your stationary target while orbiting at range with medium blasters. Even with the tracking buff it's still horrible.

ECM susceptibility: I remember my Myrm effectively jammed by a drake with ecm drones in my early days.

Single Damage type ammo: So load two different types of ammo. I can't even believe you're using this as an example. Try Gallente with their two damage type ammo......the only two damage types their ammo has.

Tech 2 ammo drawbacks: What you mean the short range and low speed of precision? Not too many frigates gonna orbit you past 50km anyhow. Fury? Increased sig for some substantial damage gains. There's balance there.

Slow align: Buahaha....see how that works with a buffed Gallente ship. Sure, it could active tank but then the guns use tons of cap so it's a REAL tradeoff. No cap, no guns or tank. With Caldari: no cap, no tank, but those missiles keep firing. Slow align times.....get real.

Don't ban me, bro!
Not-Apsalar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2012-01-18 19:03:13 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Not-Apsalar wrote:


There is a trade off. It's called delayed DPS, difficulty with faster smaller ships, high susceptibility to ECM, single damage type ammunition, no damage bonuses against common pvp resist holes, tech 2 ammo issues, high sig before and after fitting(easily highest in the class with standard fittings), slow align, etc.


Delayed DPS.....non-issue unless you're looking for an alpha-gank boat but, that's not really what I consider PVP. That's clubing baby seals.

Difficulty with faster smaller ships: Try tracking your stationary target while orbiting at range with medium blasters. Even with the tracking buff it's still horrible.

ECM susceptibility: I remember my Myrm effectively jammed by a drake with ecm drones in my early days.

Single Damage type ammo: So load two different types of ammo. I can't even believe you're using this as an example. Try Gallente with their two damage type ammo......the only two damage types their ammo has.

Tech 2 ammo drawbacks: What you mean the short range and low speed of precision? Not too many frigates gonna orbit you past 50km anyhow. Fury? Increased sig for some substantial damage gains. There's balance there.

Slow align: Buahaha....see how that works with a buffed Gallente ship. Sure, it could active tank but then the guns use tons of cap so it's a REAL tradeoff. No cap, no guns or tank. With Caldari: no cap, no tank, but those missiles keep firing. Slow align times.....get real.


Your Gallente ships can use ECM drones, too. Boatloads of them. And, lest you forget, half of Caldari ships are hybrid platforms, but they're slower and with higher sig than Gallente variants, and have worse bonuses than the Gallente variants.

If you want to keep crying about a Myrmidon then should I cry about the Eagle? Nighthawk? Raven? Cerberus? Should we even get into the huge PVP disadvantages that Caldari capital ships have because they're shield tankers? Wow, I can sure rep that POS fast!
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#215 - 2012-01-18 19:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Mr Kidd wrote:
So it looks like the Drake is going to get a tank nerf and a damage buff. I'm fine with that. However, singling out one ship from Caldari is doing the rest of the races a disservice. Nerf the Drake and the Tengu becomes more popular for PVP. Caldari is unbalanced, not for any single ship, but for the pure fact that many of their ships can have relatively insane tanks that regenerate and their main weaponry, missiles, don't require any cap. While I'm not in favor of changing missiles to utilize cap, I am in favor of a tank nerf that combats the advantages that capless weaponry avails the race over the others compounded by a rechargeable tank.

In essence, Caldari is able to divert all of their cap to even a passive tank that regens. Neuting Caldari, unlike Amarr and Gallente, doesn't pacify the target. They just keep firing. I realize that Minmatar also avails itself of this ability with its capless weaponry but, in general are armor tankers and therefore don't have a built in buff regeneration and so is more balanced.



You must not PVP much.. a PVP fit Drake uses "active" invun fields which can very much cause the tank to be affected by neuting. In fact it's why the Hurricane is one of the best BC's to kill a Draker, because you can fit 425mm AC's choose your ammo type with full damage bonus and 2x med neuts that will neut the cap away from a Drake shutting off the Invuns and have crazy DPS to melt it before the pitiful HML damage kills your lesser tank.
Arbiter Reformed
I Have a Plan
Shadow Cartel
#216 - 2012-01-18 19:13:33 UTC
best dev post in the history of ever
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#217 - 2012-01-18 19:28:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Please keep in mind these notes date back from December, and as such some points may have evolved as we are gathering more data with time.



[list]
  • Overshadow other tech 1 hulls: the leap in performance between cruiser and tier 2 battlecruiser classes is just too great for too little cost (average slot count, EHP mainly). This, coupled with the gain in damage for having access to more weapon slots, as well as extra fitting power (ever tried squeezing turrets into an Omen and keep a decent fit?), makes the small loss of speed irrelevant when leaving the cruiser class as battlecruisers still remain fairly mobile. That's partly why the Hurricane also is so popular.

  • Overshadows tech 2 counterparts: Heavy Assault Ships and Command Ships are suffering from this situation. This is most apparent with the Nighthawk, but any ship that shares a common role with them is affected. Why take the time to train up and pay for an expensive hull when there is an easy to get into and cheap option available that almost have the same performance?

  • Incorrectly funnel new players: don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP. What's the point of a Bellicose? Exequror? Maller? Moa? They shouldn't be things you just skip on the way to a greater purpose, like a leaf of salad in my 250gr double-layered onion and egg hamburger.



    • There is a reason the Drakes, Hurricanes ect.. over shadow those other ships. It's because they are ships you guys actually made right and they are "useful" because of this.

    If you want the other ships in the game to be more used and not skipped over, then "FIX" them don't nerf the ships that are useful. If you nerf the useful tier 2 BC's to try to make other ship classes more appealing you are doing nothing but Nerfing a Porche in hopes to sell more Volkswagens.

    The reason no one flys Bellicose, Exequrors, Moas & Mallers is because each of those ships has pretty much no "useful" role in the game. While some of them might work "semi ok" for very specific things like anti frig Bellicose, Mallar ect.. those roles are still better taken by other ships like the Vexor than can not only kill frigs like it's going out of style but also kill cruisers.

    The problem with the ships in EVE that don't get used and the funnel problem that forces players into a very few limited ships, is not those ships they are funneled into but the other 99% of the ships that are essentially useless. If you Nerf the Drake, it's not going to make me train my new guys to Moas .. It's just going to make the Drakes slightly less effective but will not change the ships that we fly unless you nerf them so bad we have to cross train to another race as a corp.

    CCP needs to come to terms that the ship tier system is the reason 99% of the ship hulls in this game are completely useless and because 1% of the T1 hulls actually are useful.
    Fon Revedhort
    Monks of War
    #218 - 2012-01-18 19:41:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
    Mutnin wrote:


    There is a reason the Drakes, Hurricanes ect.. over shadow those other ships. It's because they are ships you guys actually made right and they are "useful" because of this.

    If you want the other ships in the game to be more used and not skipped over, then "FIX" them don't nerf the ships that are useful. If you nerf the useful tier 2 BC's to try to make other ship classes more appealing you are doing nothing but Nerfing a Porche in hopes to sell more Volkswagens.

    The reason no one flys Bellicose, Exequrors, Moas & Mallers is because each of those ships has pretty much no "useful" role in the game. While some of them might work "semi ok" for very specific things like anti frig Bellicose, Mallar ect.. those roles are still better taken by other ships like the Vexor than can not only kill frigs like it's going out of style but also kill cruisers.

    The problem with the ships in EVE that don't get used and the funnel problem that forces players into a very few limited ships, is not those ships they are funneled into but the other 99% of the ships that are essentially useless. If you Nerf the Drake, it's not going to make me train my new guys to Moas .. It's just going to make the Drakes slightly less effective but will not change the ships that we fly unless you nerf them so bad we have to cross train to another race as a corp.

    You know, they can fix drake so that it becomes balanced in comparison with the rest of the mob.
    Or they can - for some weird reason - boost every other ship so that they become balanced in comparison with drake.

    Either way, Drakes get balanced, but the first way is shorter thus should be prefered.

    Or you're on of those dudes who would level off a small mole's hole in a garden by extracting soil from every inch of the remaining surface?

    "Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
    Ursula LeGuinn
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #219 - 2012-01-18 19:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ursula LeGuinn
    Mutnin wrote:
    The problem with the ships in EVE that don't get used and the funnel problem that forces players into a very few limited ships, is not those ships they are funneled into but the other 99% of the ships that are essentially useless. If you Nerf the Drake, it's not going to make me train my new guys to Moas .. It's just going to make the Drakes slightly less effective but will not change the ships that we fly unless you nerf them so bad we have to cross train to another race as a corp.

    CCP needs to come to terms that the ship tier system is the reason 99% of the ship hulls in this game are completely useless and because 1% of the T1 hulls actually are useful.


    ^ I was starting to wonder if I'm the only one who thinks that.

    I could sit down and write a fairly long list of ships I largely see only in the preview window, and it's mainly (though by no means only) T1 hulls. Caldari T1 hulls suffer the most. In my opinion, these neglected ships should be reevaluated and brought up to par first, and then if the Drake is still considered overpowered, then it can be altered.

    Just my .02 ISK.

    "The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community." — EVElopedia
    Not-Apsalar
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #220 - 2012-01-18 19:50:54 UTC
    Fon Revedhort wrote:


    Either way, Drakes get balanced, but the first way is shorter thus should be prefered.



    So will nerfing the Drake make more people fly a Ferox? No. How about another class of ship... say a Moa? No. It will just make more people fly Hurricanes... until Hurricanes get nerfed