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New Dev Blog: CSM December summit – meeting minutes are out

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#541 - 2012-01-24 03:50:25 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:
Aiifa wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
Ok even if we looked at it on the pvp aspect that 85km range means squat if you dont have a point on the person so in a 1v1 you will still have to be inside the 24km range of the t2 warp disruptor...which is squarely inside the range of all the longrange medium turrent weapons. So that extra 60km you could use means squat now so no need for CCP or the CSM to be complaining about range issues of the drake.


how about gang/fleet the majority of pvp

The reasons given for changing the drake are that it can do everything effectively and it has too much range compared to the other bc's. Even in 200 bc vs 200 bc fleets the extra range means nothing if someone isn't getting points on them and if you are using something other than a drake to provide those points then it's no longer a bc vs bc comparision.


Who uses their fleets DPS boats to tackle? I mean what?

A 200man gang should and will have (at minimum) Logi (whose reps heal the high resist drake better), tackle (no need to waste a mid on your DPS ships). That a short range WelpCane fleet will field a different sort of tackle than a long range DrakeBlob fleet isn't relevant. The defining factor of a fleet is the DPS ships (AlphaMaels got Huginns for ze Webs, Hellcats got Rapiers for ze Webs)... really everyone needs good tackle.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#542 - 2012-01-24 05:02:03 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
Aiifa wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
Ok even if we looked at it on the pvp aspect that 85km range means squat if you dont have a point on the person so in a 1v1 you will still have to be inside the 24km range of the t2 warp disruptor...which is squarely inside the range of all the longrange medium turrent weapons. So that extra 60km you could use means squat now so no need for CCP or the CSM to be complaining about range issues of the drake.


how about gang/fleet the majority of pvp

The reasons given for changing the drake are that it can do everything effectively and it has too much range compared to the other bc's. Even in 200 bc vs 200 bc fleets the extra range means nothing if someone isn't getting points on them and if you are using something other than a drake to provide those points then it's no longer a bc vs bc comparision.


Who uses their fleets DPS boats to tackle? I mean what?

A 200man gang should and will have (at minimum) Logi (whose reps heal the high resist drake better), tackle (no need to waste a mid on your DPS ships). That a short range WelpCane fleet will field a different sort of tackle than a long range DrakeBlob fleet isn't relevant. The defining factor of a fleet is the DPS ships (AlphaMaels got Huginns for ze Webs, Hellcats got Rapiers for ze Webs)... really everyone needs good tackle.

And the highest resist drake in that fleet will do all of 239 dps with the hm's and 99 dps from the drones for a total of 338 dps at all lv5 skills fit linked below. The enemy fleet will laugh at that dps because 1 it's pitiful and 2 the pilot with all those missiles inbound on him will have up to a 13.5 secs window to be able to call for reps before the missiles will hit him. Simply staggering the reps completely negates that kind of alpha. To even use drones the drake fleet would have to be within 60km negating 15.9km of the possible range of the hm's.

[Drake, uber tank]

6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Scourge Fury Heavy Missile)

2x Invulnerability Field II
4x Large Shield Extender II

Power Diagnostic System II
3x Shield Power Relay II

3x Medium Core Defence Field Purger I

5x Hobgoblin II
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#543 - 2012-01-24 06:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Omega Flames wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
Aiifa wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
Ok even if we looked at it on the pvp aspect that 85km range means squat if you dont have a point on the person so in a 1v1 you will still have to be inside the 24km range of the t2 warp disruptor...which is squarely inside the range of all the longrange medium turrent weapons. So that extra 60km you could use means squat now so no need for CCP or the CSM to be complaining about range issues of the drake.


how about gang/fleet the majority of pvp

The reasons given for changing the drake are that it can do everything effectively and it has too much range compared to the other bc's. Even in 200 bc vs 200 bc fleets the extra range means nothing if someone isn't getting points on them and if you are using something other than a drake to provide those points then it's no longer a bc vs bc comparision.


Who uses their fleets DPS boats to tackle? I mean what?

A 200man gang should and will have (at minimum) Logi (whose reps heal the high resist drake better), tackle (no need to waste a mid on your DPS ships). That a short range WelpCane fleet will field a different sort of tackle than a long range DrakeBlob fleet isn't relevant. The defining factor of a fleet is the DPS ships (AlphaMaels got Huginns for ze Webs, Hellcats got Rapiers for ze Webs)... really everyone needs good tackle.

And the highest resist drake in that fleet will do all of 239 dps with the hm's and 99 dps from the drones for a total of 338 dps at all lv5 skills fit linked below. The enemy fleet will laugh at that dps because 1 it's pitiful and 2 the pilot with all those missiles inbound on him will have up to a 13.5 secs window to be able to call for reps before the missiles will hit him. Simply staggering the reps completely negates that kind of alpha. To even use drones the drake fleet would have to be within 60km negating 15.9km of the possible range of the hm's.

[Drake, uber tank]

6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Scourge Fury Heavy Missile)

2x Invulnerability Field II
4x Large Shield Extender II

Power Diagnostic System II
3x Shield Power Relay II

3x Medium Core Defence Field Purger I

5x Hobgoblin II


That is a godawful fit and you should be ashamed. I was talking about a Drake's resists being superior to a Cane's.

A decent fit gets ~70k EHP without trying. (Still has 3BCUs and a DC2)

Reps don't do much when you're at full Shield/Armor, then you get ~100 volleys hitting at once with 3k damage per volley... BAM. Even 50-70 will take out a BS.

The lag in damage is an issue, but it's less of one once you have a pure-ish fleet. All those 13s do is give the primary time to say *%^*$%%#^ before he pops.

Drakeblobs certainly have their disadvantages, but needing to use Kinetic damage aint one of them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
TurAmarth ElRandir
Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc.
#544 - 2012-01-27 00:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: TurAmarth ElRandir
Tore Vest wrote:
Remove the CSM


Disagree... with respect. Do not remove the CSM, but ensure ALL factions in EVE are represented, not just those (goons) who can oder the most votes from thier aliiance...

There are moar players in Hisec than in lo & null combined as I understand it (if I am wrong, I would like proof)... If EVE has a nullsec, PvP "purist" CSM (I can say this in all honesty.... all anyone has to do is search CSM Mitani's posts on the forums to know what his agenda is...), CCP will be doing the vast majority of it's playerbase, and income base, a great disservice.

I am by no means "against" nullsec or losec, pirates or griefing...I have lived in W-space for moar time than I have in any other area... and I have plans to try out Nullsec soon. It is one "part" of the tapestry that is EVE... but ALL of EVE should not be held to nullsec rules or nullsec gameplay... and the CSM should be balanced in it's representation of the multitude of players and playstyles.

In RL (in the US as I am an American) we have Republicns and Democrats...
In EVE, we have Griefers and Bears...

I greatly fear the damage that can be done by one power block holding sway over the CSM.

TurAmarth ElRandir Anoikis Merc, Salvager, Logibro and Unrepentant Blogger Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#545 - 2012-01-27 00:52:36 UTC
TurAmarth ElRandir wrote:
Tore Vest wrote:
Remove the CSM


Disagree... with respect. Do not remove the CSM, but ensure ALL factions in EVE are represented, not just those (goons) who can oder the most votes from thier aliiance...

There are moar players in Hisec than in lo & null combined as I understand it (if I am wrong, I would like proof)... If EVE has a nullsec, PvP "purist" CSM (I can say this in all honesty.... all anyone has to do is search CSM Mitani's posts on the forums to know what his agenda is...), CCP will be doing the vast majority of it's playerbase, and income base, a great disservice.

I am by no means "against" nullsec or losec, pirates or griefing...I have lived in W-space for moar time than I have in any other area... and I have plans to try out Nullsec soon. It is one "part" of the tapestry that is EVE... but ALL of EVE should not be held to nullsec rules or nullsec gameplay... and the CSM should be balanced in it's representation of the multitude of players and playstyles.

In RL (in the US as I am an American) we have Republicns and Democrats...
In EVE, we have Griefers and Bears...

I greatly fear the damage that can be done by one power block holding sway over the CSM.


If the 80% of the EvE population who live in HiSec care what the CSM does, or are bothered by the makeup of CSM 6, then the makeup of the CSM 7 will reflect that. There is literally nothing preventing or hindering them from voting for their preferred candidate.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#546 - 2012-01-27 00:57:02 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


That is a godawful fit and you should be ashamed. I was talking about a Drake's resists being superior to a Cane's.

A decent fit gets ~70k EHP without trying. (Still has 3BCUs and a DC2)

Reps don't do much when you're at full Shield/Armor, then you get ~100 volleys hitting at once with 3k damage per volley... BAM. Even 50-70 will take out a BS.

The lag in damage is an issue, but it's less of one once you have a pure-ish fleet. All those 13s do is give the primary time to say *%^*$%%#^ before he pops.

Drakeblobs certainly have their disadvantages, but needing to use Kinetic damage aint one of them.

It is the best tank fit possible using t2 mods and t1 rigs so it is by no means an aweful fit. The drake is meant to have a better tank hence the reason it has higher resists duh? The drake is limited to only kinetic damage for it's dps bonus. The cane as you have decided to use for an example gets both 5% increase in Medium Projectile Turret damage and Rate of Fire per level. Which means its bonus is better for dps especially since it can pick a different ammo type to switch up it's damage and still be able to get it's ship bonus applied. A logi's reps are just as effective when you are at 100% shield/armor as when you aren't. You will never get 100 volleys hitting you at once with missiles, there will always some amount of time between those strikes which once again if your logi's have staggered the reps then you will be just fine. And if your logi pilots can't setup staggered reps inside 13 secs then they need more practice.

In short the drake is more of a tank ship and the cane is more of a gank ship. Both do their roles perfectly fine.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#547 - 2012-01-27 02:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Omega Flames wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


That is a godawful fit and you should be ashamed. I was talking about a Drake's resists being superior to a Cane's.

A decent fit gets ~70k EHP without trying. (Still has 3BCUs and a DC2)

Reps don't do much when you're at full Shield/Armor, then you get ~100 volleys hitting at once with 3k damage per volley... BAM. Even 50-70 will take out a BS.

The lag in damage is an issue, but it's less of one once you have a pure-ish fleet. All those 13s do is give the primary time to say *%^*$%%#^ before he pops.

Drakeblobs certainly have their disadvantages, but needing to use Kinetic damage aint one of them.

It is the best tank fit possible using t2 mods and t1 rigs so it is by no means an aweful fit. The drake is meant to have a better tank hence the reason it has higher resists duh? The drake is limited to only kinetic damage for it's dps bonus. The cane as you have decided to use for an example gets both 5% increase in Medium Projectile Turret damage and Rate of Fire per level. Which means its bonus is better for dps especially since it can pick a different ammo type to switch up it's damage and still be able to get it's ship bonus applied. A logi's reps are just as effective when you are at 100% shield/armor as when you aren't. You will never get 100 volleys hitting you at once with missiles, there will always some amount of time between those strikes which once again if your logi's have staggered the reps then you will be just fine. And if your logi pilots can't setup staggered reps inside 13 secs then they need more practice.

In short the drake is more of a tank ship and the cane is more of a gank ship. Both do their roles perfectly fine.


So by that reasoning, your Cane fit would include no tank modules, because there's no tanking bonus?

Specific problems with your fit:
1) Crap resists compared to EHP. The Logi will have a hard time repping you compared to a higher resist tank, despite lower EHP.
You can argue both ways between 1 and 2 LSEs, but nobody ever flies more than 2 in PvP. For Resists, I prefer either 2 Invulns and an EM rig, or 1 Invuln & 1 Photon, so you don't have a nice big EM hole.

2) No Tackle. The Drake has the mids to fit tackle and a TP easily, though some drop the TP for more tank.
3) No Prop mod. Good God.
4) No Damage Mods. Power Diagnostics don't belong here. Even in PvE.


EDIT: By the way, I find the views you espouse in your profile repugnant. /EDIT

Below is a nice, normal Drake. It's got better resists than a cane, so Logi will keep it alive longer.

[Drake, Shield Fleet BC]

Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
[Empty High slot]

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Large Shield Extender II

Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
TurAmarth ElRandir
Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc.
#548 - 2012-01-27 03:24:29 UTC
Ayari wrote:
Quote:
Cloak Hunters: CCP brought up the possibility of a future cloak-hunting ship or mechanic as a hypothetical; this
was described as ‘more like finding a submarine than pulling a blanket off’ a cloaked ship. The CSM was
cautiously positive about the idea of a cloak-hunting vessel of some kind.


Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes


No No No No No No No No No No ... and No.

Wormholer here... just so ya know. We LIVE by cloakies and scan probes... take that away and many moar of those of us left in W-space will leave... it's too freakin dangerouse as tis... =]

TurAmarth ElRandir Anoikis Merc, Salvager, Logibro and Unrepentant Blogger Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/
TurAmarth ElRandir
Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc.
#549 - 2012-01-27 04:35:14 UTC
Two step wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Comments:
- Please don't mess up WH space. Its one of the few bastions of actual small gang warfare and WH stabilizers would really mess with that.


I wasn't at the summit, but I have already yelled loudly at the folks that were there about how bad stabilizing wormholes would be. They would take away the main unique feature of w-space, and would only make the strong organizations in w-space stronger, at the expense of everyone else.


I fully support and endorse this... 'nuff said.

TurAmarth ElRandir Anoikis Merc, Salvager, Logibro and Unrepentant Blogger Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#550 - 2012-01-27 05:28:49 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


So by that reasoning, your Cane fit would include no tank modules, because there's no tanking bonus?

Specific problems with your fit:
1) Crap resists compared to EHP. The Logi will have a hard time repping you compared to a higher resist tank, despite lower EHP.
You can argue both ways between 1 and 2 LSEs, but nobody ever flies more than 2 in PvP. For Resists, I prefer either 2 Invulns and an EM rig, or 1 Invuln & 1 Photon, so you don't have a nice big EM hole.

2) No Tackle. The Drake has the mids to fit tackle and a TP easily, though some drop the TP for more tank.
3) No Prop mod. Good God.
4) No Damage Mods. Power Diagnostics don't belong here. Even in PvE.


EDIT: By the way, I find the views you espouse in your profile repugnant. /EDIT

Below is a nice, normal Drake. It's got better resists than a cane, so Logi will keep it alive longer.

[Drake, Shield Fleet BC]

Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
[Empty High slot]

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Large Shield Extender II

Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
1.Does my TANK drake fit have no guns on it? ofc not. You commented about how hard it is to kill a drake cause of it's tank and I showed you the best tank fit possible which btw does crap dps.

2. By expecting the drake to use the warp disruptor and web you have completely eliminated the range that hm's give a missile boat thus negating half the arguement the CCP and CSM are using to give them a nerf. Thank you for helping prove my point. Drake's don't get the range unless someone else is providing points and then it's not a bc vs bc comparison. And why you are using hm's when you should be using ham's if you are going to put a web on it is dumb. If you are going to fit the ship to get within 10km then fit it for that purpose.

3. Its a TANK drake fit, therefore meant to handle as much punishment as it can take so the entire fit is designed for that purpose, hence the mods i put on it. Learn to fly a tank drake then tell me how to fit one. (hint on a tank drake effective shield regen is king)

4. Your fit with 12 t2 large shield transporters repping it can only take 3888 dps before breaking with a shield ehp of 56k. Mine with 12 t2 large shield transporters can take 4501 dps before breaking with a shield ehp of 74k. So the logi's will actually have an easier time repping my fit not yours as you tried to say. Good to know you paid attention during the "how to read your eve fitting tool" class.

5. My anti-racism bio has nothing to do with this forum topic, if you wish to promote racism then make a new thread (I'm sure CCP wont ban your account /rolls eyes)
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#551 - 2012-01-27 05:31:07 UTC
TurAmarth ElRandir wrote:
Two step wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Comments:
- Please don't mess up WH space. Its one of the few bastions of actual small gang warfare and WH stabilizers would really mess with that.


I wasn't at the summit, but I have already yelled loudly at the folks that were there about how bad stabilizing wormholes would be. They would take away the main unique feature of w-space, and would only make the strong organizations in w-space stronger, at the expense of everyone else.


I fully support and endorse this... 'nuff said.

I agree a wh stabilizer seems like a bad idea thou I will say if implemented correctly then the anti-cloaking thing could work fine.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#552 - 2012-01-27 05:59:58 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:
1.Does my TANK drake fit have no guns on it? ofc not. You commented about how hard it is to kill a drake cause of it's tank and I showed you the best tank fit possible which btw does crap dps.

2. By expecting the drake to use the warp disruptor and web you have completely eliminated the range that hm's give a missile boat thus negating half the arguement the CCP and CSM are using to give them a nerf. Thank you for helping prove my point. Drake's don't get the range unless someone else is providing points and then it's not a bc vs bc comparison. And why you are using hm's when you should be using ham's if you are going to put a web on it is dumb. If you are going to fit the ship to get within 10km then fit it for that purpose.

3. Its a TANK drake fit, therefore meant to handle as much punishment as it can take so the entire fit is designed for that purpose, hence the mods i put on it. Learn to fly a tank drake then tell me how to fit one. (hint on a tank drake effective shield regen is king)

4. Your fit with 12 t2 large shield transporters repping it can only take 3888 dps before breaking with a shield ehp of 56k. Mine with 12 t2 large shield transporters can take 4501 dps before breaking with a shield ehp of 74k. So the logi's will actually have an easier time repping my fit not yours as you tried to say. Good to know you paid attention during the "how to read your eve fitting tool" class.

5. My anti-racism bio has nothing to do with this forum topic, if you wish to promote racism then make a new thread (I'm sure CCP wont ban your account /rolls eyes)


1. Saying that a Drake has a better tank than a Cane does not mean that I intend to fit a Drake like a moron.

2. I don't expect you to fit a Web, that was just a fit I happened to have saved. If you recall, in my comments I suggest a TP or a bit more tank in that slot. And I'm not arguing purefleet fights, because those don't exist. I already explained that fleetcomps tend to be named for their primary DPS ships, with the inclusion of support craft being understood.

3. You're an Idiot. Fleet ships need to shoot things to make them stop shooting at the friendly fleet. They do this by fitting for either a balance between DPS and tank (for armor ships) or going for as much DPS as reasonable (Shield ships).

4. a)Say Hi to EM damage. b) if you're going for all out tank and assuming logi, fit more than 2 resistance mods. And L2Damage Profiles. My point was that once you survive the initial volley, all that HP buffer does you no good; Resists are all that matters.

5. Yeah, complaining that African Americans are privileged over White Americans is anti-racist and just plain sensible.Roll

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
TurAmarth ElRandir
Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc.
#553 - 2012-01-27 07:13:16 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
...people live in POS's, and they are able to be destroyed. If you read about some of the giant piles of loot people pull out of a POS in w-space when they are taken down by a hostile fleet, you would change your mind. When they lose their wh, they pack up what they have left and start over. Null should be the same. There is no reason if shouldn't be.


DAMN ! Quoted for truth. (Man wish I'd said that...)

TurAmarth ElRandir Anoikis Merc, Salvager, Logibro and Unrepentant Blogger Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#554 - 2012-01-27 08:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Flames
RubyPorto wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
1.Does my TANK drake fit have no guns on it? ofc not. You commented about how hard it is to kill a drake cause of it's tank and I showed you the best tank fit possible which btw does crap dps.

2. By expecting the drake to use the warp disruptor and web you have completely eliminated the range that hm's give a missile boat thus negating half the arguement the CCP and CSM are using to give them a nerf. Thank you for helping prove my point. Drake's don't get the range unless someone else is providing points and then it's not a bc vs bc comparison. And why you are using hm's when you should be using ham's if you are going to put a web on it is dumb. If you are going to fit the ship to get within 10km then fit it for that purpose.

3. Its a TANK drake fit, therefore meant to handle as much punishment as it can take so the entire fit is designed for that purpose, hence the mods i put on it. Learn to fly a tank drake then tell me how to fit one. (hint on a tank drake effective shield regen is king)

4. Your fit with 12 t2 large shield transporters repping it can only take 3888 dps before breaking with a shield ehp of 56k. Mine with 12 t2 large shield transporters can take 4501 dps before breaking with a shield ehp of 74k. So the logi's will actually have an easier time repping my fit not yours as you tried to say. Good to know you paid attention during the "how to read your eve fitting tool" class.

5. My anti-racism bio has nothing to do with this forum topic, if you wish to promote racism then make a new thread (I'm sure CCP wont ban your account /rolls eyes)


1. Saying that a Drake has a better tank than a Cane does not mean that I intend to fit a Drake like a moron.

2. I don't expect you to fit a Web, that was just a fit I happened to have saved. If you recall, in my comments I suggest a TP or a bit more tank in that slot. And I'm not arguing purefleet fights, because those don't exist. I already explained that fleetcomps tend to be named for their primary DPS ships, with the inclusion of support craft being understood.

3. You're an Idiot. Fleet ships need to shoot things to make them stop shooting at the friendly fleet. They do this by fitting for either a balance between DPS and tank (for armor ships) or going for as much DPS as reasonable (Shield ships).

4. a)Say Hi to EM damage. b) if you're going for all out tank and assuming logi, fit more than 2 resistance mods. And L2Damage Profiles. My point was that once you survive the initial volley, all that HP buffer does you no good; Resists are all that matters.

5. Yeah, complaining that African Americans are privileged over White Americans is anti-racist and just plain sensible.Roll

1. /me says hi to EM damage...oh wait the only thing that does pure EM is missiles and the only bc that's going to rock missiles is the drake, we doing drake vs drake damage profiles now? cause I thought we were doing drake vs other bc's.... You are welcome to drop the invul's and go for whatever specific you want, but the point is that the projectile and hybrid can easily swap ammo out and then attack whatever your current hole is while still getting to use all of their ships bonus. The drake can't do that because to not use kinetic means to ignore half of the ships bonuses. I will grant you that the laser boats have sorta the same problem being stuck with EM/Therm but that's not a reason to nerf the drake's shield bonus. Personally I would love to swap out the kinetic bonus on a drake for a rof and create some different ammo types for the laser boats so then everyone could swap ammo as they desired and still get to use all the ships bonuses, but that isn't on the agenda atm is it?

2.Then the fit you had saved was utter nonsense to begin with. Your drake fit can't do enough dps to kill my drake fit thou can it? But My drake fit even with ****** dps can still kill your drake fit or force you to warp away...end of the day I win, who's the moron?

3. If you would keep up with the conversation instead of trying to bring my bio into it then maybe it would have dawned on you that all the non-missile bc's do their damage as soon as they fire the weapon and dont have to wait for a missile to travel to its target thus their damage can be coordinated to hit all at once while you can't do that with a missile due to everyone not being the exact same distance from the target much less the same missile velocity from skills/fit. With incoming dps able to be timed to be all at once from the non-missile weapons ehp is MUCH more important than just pure resists or you will instapop.
TurAmarth ElRandir
Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc.
#555 - 2012-01-27 08:59:56 UTC
Michus Danether wrote:

1. Destructible stations
Every pod pilot and ship inside would remain there, with pilots capable of switching in and out of ships as desired before undocking. After undocking they cannot redock, however they can eject ships that they own from the outpost just like they can at a POS, and scoop their assets from the outpost wreck just like from a POS. The outpost wreck would be indestructible and a new outpost can be constructed in the system at the same planet or another planet.

Tell me what is wrong with this implementation?


While not bad and well thought out, what is wrong is we already have fully destructible stations… it’s called a POS. If it is taken down, (destroyed) ALL assets inside can be stolen or destroyed.

This goes back to my basic take and understanding as regards EVE’s basic ideal… the sandbox ideal, unscripted AND unmoderated, emergent behavior between the players in a virtual REALITY... As I like to put it… your ass is immortal, your STUFF isn’t. EVE has, in its unscripted, unmoderated sandbox, virtually REAL RISK of virtually REAL LOSS. You can lose your STUFF and, in some cases (in T3s), even your skills. But “you” are immortal.

So what you say, you are immortal in some way in all MMOGs… you have to be. Quite correct… but all the other MMOGs you are also protected from loss to the scale and degree we have in EVE, a scale and degree that mimics real life, IE a Virtual Reality... And in EVE as in RL, you cannot value highly that which you cannot lose… and the one single most blogged, forumed, posted and penned about issue in EVE is, “He blew up my ship and took my STUFF!” It’s EVE… it’s like RL in that way.

OK, so how to allow people to leave with the option of returning…. designate a number of stations, say the Amarr hub, Jita 4.4, the hub in Rens, the Dodixie hub and mebbe several others… as permanently invulnerable, “Hardened” fortress stations… you wanna quit… take or send all your STUFF to one of them… it’ll be here when you get back. In the rest you take your chances like everyone else.

Michus Danether wrote:

2. 'Sensor Ping' decloakers.
- Highslot module, when activated sends a ping throughout the system that creates a visual effect on the screen of any cloaked ship in the system, also builds up a 'static charge' in the cloak field of any cloaked ship in system. The only thing that dissipates the static charge is time. Static charge builds up every time the pulse is activated until the ship becomes unable to recloak due to the static buildup.

Does not impact normal cloaking operations that take space within a few minutes, cloaked ships can still get warp in points and intel within the 5-10m it takes to 'ping' them out of cloak. Even when decloaked they should still be able to survive.

Tell me what is wrong with this idea as well, is there a group of players or a play style that this impacts negatively or improves too much? Does this benefit the hunter or hunted more, both?


This would have a great negative impact on wormhole space and its denizens… Here’s why;
We (yes I am one, moar then 6 months now) live in very secluded, rural, hard to get to and (really easy to make) very hard to get out of places… single systems… limited space… for a fleet of “subhunters” backed by BC’s or BS’s… this would take away one of the absolutely necessary tools of that lifestyle… wormholes are THE most dangerous space in EVE… try it, you’ll find out.

And as for cloakies being uncatchable… there are already various tactics used against them… I was uncloaked at a WH today right after jump in… and he took me to under 20% armor before I could jump out… if I hadn’t been inside the jump radius of the hole, I would have been killed.

Cloakies, the way they are, make life in W-space possible and they also make it one helluva lot moar interesting… I have lost ships to cloaked T3s... and have used em myself. Please don’t nerf this very important technology… and yes, I ask this in the name of all who dwell in W-space…

TurAmarth ElRandir Anoikis Merc, Salvager, Logibro and Unrepentant Blogger Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/
TurAmarth ElRandir
Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc.
#556 - 2012-01-27 21:28:08 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

PvE Ship Balance doesn't actually matter. Sorry. Nobody cares what people run PvE content in.

All that matters there is relative reward for various activities.

Drakes are too versatile in PvP. And that's where balance between ships actually matters.


And here, for all to read is my primary issue with everyone who sees PvP as the Be All and End All of EVE… and this include the current CSM;

“PvE Ship Balance doesn't actually matter. Sorry. Nobody cares what people run PvE content in.”

I agree in that PvE fits are not a balance fit, they fit to tank against and DPS for well known and static (unchanging) ship fits. NPCs fit one way and one way only for their race/faction/ship . The only real changes are target switching and the addition of web, nuet and scram as the missions get harder, but they still have very well understood tanks and DPS output.. so PvE fits are often cookie cutter fits. I personally reached a point where my Drake fit was perfected against C2 Sleepers so much so that I could run sites solo & (almost) AFK…

PvP fits are dynamic fits… you have the ship specs, a wide variety of mods, the toons skills and the players experience… There are some semi cookie-cutter fits for PvP based on ship type that time has shown to work well in most cases, but there is still room for role specific variation and experimentation…

There is a whole class of PvPers who prey on mission runners because they know exactly how to fit against them most effectively… tell them “Nobody cares what people run PvE content in”…

EVE is s very, very diverse game, with a huge amount of “content” the vast majority of which is NOT PvP oriented, but is PvE oriented. PvP is a major part of EVE and while it does generate moar posts, blogs, discussions, whines, rage & tears than any other part, PvP is NOT the endgame of EVE.

If it was there would be no PvE, no Exploration, no Agents, no need for ISK… but that is not EVE. It does matter and other people do care what fits work for PvE… just because YOU don’t care does not make it unimportant, just unimportant to you and this is not about you or just one player or a specific group of players… it is about ALL players and ALL form of gameplay… NOT just PvP.

PS - I love a GF… and want to get better at PvP… but I respect all the ways EVE is played, ALL of them.

In some ways I feel like EVE is a lot like Chicago in the ‘20s… the vast majority of the people were hard working slobs like most of us… but Gangsters (CSM made up of PVP/Null centric members) who prey on the masses had taken over and the govt (CCP) was paid off and corrupt (IE no longer care about the common man)… I know, I know the common slob in Chicago dint have Tommy guns and we do… It’s a rough political analogy at best. =]

TurAmarth ElRandir Anoikis Merc, Salvager, Logibro and Unrepentant Blogger Fly Wreckless and see you in the Sky =/|)= http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#557 - 2012-01-27 23:32:10 UTC

TurAmarth ElRandir wrote:

[...]EVE is s very, very diverse game, with a huge amount of “content” the vast majority of which is NOT PvP oriented, but is PvE oriented. PvP is a major part of EVE and while it does generate moar posts, blogs, discussions, whines, rage & tears than any other part, PvP is NOT the endgame of EVE.

If it was there would be no PvE, no Exploration, no Agents, no need for ISK… but that is not EVE. It does matter and other people do care what fits work for PvE… just because YOU don’t care does not make it unimportant, just unimportant to you and this is not about you or just one player or a specific group of players… it is about ALL players and ALL form of gameplay… NOT just PvP. [...]


"Endgame" is part of the lexicon of Themepark MMOs. So since EVE is supposed to be a Sandbox you'd be right in saying PvP isn't the endgame of EVE, because there is no endgame.

There's also nothing wrong with wanting to play EVE by mostly perusing PvE activities. The problem is people that come to EVE and want to be immune from unwanted interaction with other players. EVE being a sandbox, but also a game built around competition and conflict means that PvP (not necessarily combat PvP) ought to permeate ALL activities in EVE, including PvE.

Just to hammer my point home...

Miners gather minerals that are used to build combat ships
Explorers gather mods, parts, and blueprints all used in making combat ships or making them better at fighting.
Mission Runners/ Incursion runners make ISK and gather mods to make yes more combat ships.
Industrialists build combat ships and mods to make them better.
Traders sell Combat ships and parts.

Pretty much all activities in EVE is PvP, or supports, funds, or profits from it. With that in mind it seems rather odd for any expectation that those that participate in any of those activities should be exempt from being effected by PvP themselves.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#558 - 2012-01-28 01:29:52 UTC
Xorv wrote:

TurAmarth ElRandir wrote:

[...]EVE is s very, very diverse game, with a huge amount of “content” the vast majority of which is NOT PvP oriented, but is PvE oriented. PvP is a major part of EVE and while it does generate moar posts, blogs, discussions, whines, rage & tears than any other part, PvP is NOT the endgame of EVE.

If it was there would be no PvE, no Exploration, no Agents, no need for ISK… but that is not EVE. It does matter and other people do care what fits work for PvE… just because YOU don’t care does not make it unimportant, just unimportant to you and this is not about you or just one player or a specific group of players… it is about ALL players and ALL form of gameplay… NOT just PvP. [...]


"Endgame" is part of the lexicon of Themepark MMOs. So since EVE is supposed to be a Sandbox you'd be right in saying PvP isn't the endgame of EVE, because there is no endgame.

There's also nothing wrong with wanting to play EVE by mostly perusing PvE activities. The problem is people that come to EVE and want to be immune from unwanted interaction with other players. EVE being a sandbox, but also a game built around competition and conflict means that PvP (not necessarily combat PvP) ought to permeate ALL activities in EVE, including PvE.

Just to hammer my point home...

Miners gather minerals that are used to build combat ships
Explorers gather mods, parts, and blueprints all used in making combat ships or making them better at fighting.
Mission Runners/ Incursion runners make ISK and gather mods to make yes more combat ships.
Industrialists build combat ships and mods to make them better.
Traders sell Combat ships and parts.

Pretty much all activities in EVE is PvP, or supports, funds, or profits from it. With that in mind it seems rather odd for any expectation that those that participate in any of those activities should be exempt from being effected by PvP themselves.

I can say the exact same thing about PVP supporting PVE. The simple fact is neither PVP nor PVE should be placed above the other and everytime someone starts saying one should then they need to be corrected and reminded that we all play how we want to, such is the nature of the sandbox. Just because undocking means you agree to non-consenual pvp doesn't mean you should be forced to pvp everytime you undock. No one is forcing the PVP'ers to PVE either ya know....
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#559 - 2012-01-28 01:38:45 UTC
TurAmarth ElRandir wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

PvE Ship Balance doesn't actually matter. Sorry. Nobody cares what people run PvE content in.

All that matters there is relative reward for various activities.

Drakes are too versatile in PvP. And that's where balance between ships actually matters.


And here, for all to read is my primary issue with everyone who sees PvP as the Be All and End All of EVE… and this include the current CSM;

“PvE Ship Balance doesn't actually matter. Sorry. Nobody cares what people run PvE content in.”

I agree in that PvE fits are not a balance fit, they fit to tank against and DPS for well known and static (unchanging) ship fits. NPCs fit one way and one way only for their race/faction/ship . The only real changes are target switching and the addition of web, nuet and scram as the missions get harder, but they still have very well understood tanks and DPS output.. so PvE fits are often cookie cutter fits. I personally reached a point where my Drake fit was perfected against C2 Sleepers so much so that I could run sites solo & (almost) AFK…



I wasn't claiming PvP is the only valid "endgame." Just that I'm perfectly ok with having a "best" PvE ship, so long as the income it brings in is at whatever the current acceptable level is. I don't care if someone doesn't like that they need to change their style of flying to max out their income. It just doesn't matter.

Having a "best" PvP ship is disasterous (as we saw with Supers).

That's the balance I'm getting at.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#560 - 2012-01-28 01:46:20 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:

1. /me says hi to EM damage...oh wait the only thing that does pure EM is missiles and the only bc that's going to rock missiles is the drake, we doing drake vs drake damage profiles now? cause I thought we were doing drake vs other bc's.... You are welcome to drop the invul's and go for whatever specific you want, but the point is that the projectile and hybrid can easily swap ammo out and then attack whatever your current hole is while still getting to use all of their ships bonus. The drake can't do that because to not use kinetic means to ignore half of the ships bonuses. I will grant you that the laser boats have sorta the same problem being stuck with EM/Therm but that's not a reason to nerf the drake's shield bonus. Personally I would love to swap out the kinetic bonus on a drake for a rof and create some different ammo types for the laser boats so then everyone could swap ammo as they desired and still get to use all the ships bonuses, but that isn't on the agenda atm is it?

2.Then the fit you had saved was utter nonsense to begin with. Your drake fit can't do enough dps to kill my drake fit thou can it? But My drake fit even with ****** dps can still kill your drake fit or force you to warp away...end of the day I win, who's the moron?

3. If you would keep up with the conversation instead of trying to bring my bio into it then maybe it would have dawned on you that all the non-missile bc's do their damage as soon as they fire the weapon and dont have to wait for a missile to travel to its target thus their damage can be coordinated to hit all at once while you can't do that with a missile due to everyone not being the exact same distance from the target much less the same missile velocity from skills/fit. With incoming dps able to be timed to be all at once from the non-missile weapons ehp is MUCH more important than just pure resists or you will instapop.


1. Whatever, run a photon or a Second invuln. Don't care too much. The point about the resists is that all that Raw HP and regen doesn't help you once the Logi turned on. You keep conflating fleets and terribad Solo fits.

2. Now that you bring up 1v1, my Cane could absolutely demolish your Drake before you killed me. Neuts FTW. And it's because you're slow (so I can rock Hail), lack a point (so there's no actual way you can kill me), and have no DPS to kill me before I cap you out.

In a fleet, you still want DPS to kill the opposing fleet.

3. You really think the tenth of a second difference due to distance is gonna cause bigger problems than the timing issues EVERY fleet has with switching primaries? Really?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon