These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New Dev Blog: CSM December summit – meeting minutes are out

First post First post First post
Author
Plutonian
Intransigent
#521 - 2012-01-22 06:44:21 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
[ 'Cause the point of the CSM is that we can't trust CCP to make their game good.


Yeah... but after reading the minutes, who would you trust more at this point? (From a Empire/Lowsec/WH/NPC-null perspective.)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#522 - 2012-01-22 07:18:22 UTC
Plutonian wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
[ 'Cause the point of the CSM is that we can't trust CCP to make their game good.


Yeah... but after reading the minutes, who would you trust more at this point? (From a Empire/Lowsec/WH/NPC-null perspective.)


Given what I've read of the CSM's blogs? The CSM.

The Mittani's been vocal in his support of Incursions (though not of their ludicrous payout), of FW improvements, of POS living improvements, etc.

Seleene puts an incredible amount of effort into their blog, and is a fantastically well rounded EvE player (and former CCP employee)

Two Step is a big advocate of improvements to WH space, in addition to being well rounded.

I'll admit that most of the other CSM's don't stand out much in my head, but I think it's a disservice to say that they (even if they only cared about null[something I don't believe is true]) don't understand the important roles Highsec and WH space (and to a lesser extent Lowsec [needs its own bit of industry please]) play in a healthy nullsec environment.

That said, if you live in Hisec and you want a real safe place to play? None of the CSM members at this time will support that, and I would hope that CCP would never implement that.

Overall, despite the lumps the CSM has taken (a lot which I think are undeserved), they shit diamonds compared to the leadership at CCP. Nothing CCP tries turns out as planned.

Supers and Titans: Supposed to be special snowflakes, rare on the battlefield => Remote DDs & Invulnerable in Lowsec (before HICS) => Super Fleets after the OP MoM buff => Tracking Titans and Supercaps online who can always Logoff => Almost fixed (Now)

WHs: Supposed/Expected to be a Nomadic Existance => An exercise in Masochism where you get to fight all the wonder that is POS mechanics.

FW: Supposed to be Small Gang PvP taking systems => Uh.... ?????

PI: Supposed to be, uh... ??? => Clickfest that made people billions from reprocessing NPC goods => Clickfest with moar structurebash

Incursions: Supposed to be difficult, PvP Style group PvE => More Isk Farming. (The content's great. The income is just high for the risk in a hisec incursion)

Incarna: Supposed to be functional => Rusty door. => Back to Ship Spinning (some people sit on a couch, oooooh)

Drone Regions: Supposed to be a cool new area => Sorry miners, better find a new job.

There is a *LOT* of great stuff mixed in that I haven't mentioned, and overall CCP has done a great job making this game what it is. But a lot of the brilliance that went into making this game special was frontloaded in the ideas stage.

Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.

5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. The more effort CCP puts into approaching that ideal, the better the expansion is. The less CCP gets in the way of players making stories, fighting, and generally creating content for the game, the more fun the game is.

I got into the game because I read about a giant heist, and I read about this Great War. And then I mined for 6 months because I didn't get it. I'm finally starting to get it now, after years of play.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Plutonian
Intransigent
#523 - 2012-01-22 17:12:54 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
I'll admit that most of the other CSM's don't stand out much in my head, but I think it's a disservice to say that they (even if they only cared about null[something I don't believe is true]) don't understand the important roles Highsec and WH space (and to a lesser extent Lowsec [needs its own bit of industry please]) play in a healthy nullsec environment.


Let me get this straight; you believe the CSM understands the roles Highsec, WH space, and Lowsec play in a healthy nullsec environment? These are your words from above, slightly condensed.

Hearing this from a nullsec player, I'm not terribly astonished. Roll I am in no way surprised at your support of the CSM.

When told the changes he desired could negatively affect lowsec, one CSM member replied "like lowsec is even relevant." Given such remarks, and the little gems in the minutes (honestly, try reading them from a lowsec perspective), you might understand how many who voted for these selfish pricks but do not live in null-sec, might feel a bit betrayed.

If the CSM elections can gamed in such a way that nullsec alliances fill the board, and if CCP cannot find a means to prevent this, then the CSM becomes only the mouthpiece of null, whispering in CCP's ear, while other areas of the game go unheard. At that point, the CSM has outlived its usefulness.

Again... I have to say that if an all Lowsec CSM began screwing over Empire, Null, and WH space, I'd be fighting them on the issues. And I live in lowsec! I guess it all comes down to personal values.

That an elected representative of the players desires would only push forth the ones which would benefit himself and his friends is sad beyond compare.



And, BTW: I voted for Selene. Given his nature and the fact he was involved in development, I felt he would be a voice of balanced reason in the CSM. I am highly disappointed.




RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#524 - 2012-01-22 17:46:22 UTC
Plutonian wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
I'll admit that most of the other CSM's don't stand out much in my head, but I think it's a disservice to say that they (even if they only cared about null[something I don't believe is true]) don't understand the important roles Highsec and WH space (and to a lesser extent Lowsec [needs its own bit of industry please]) play in a healthy nullsec environment.


Let me get this straight; you believe the CSM understands the roles Highsec, WH space, and Lowsec play in a healthy nullsec environment? These are your words from above, slightly condensed.


"(even if they only cared about null[something I don't believe is true])"

Please read before replying.

Quote:

Hearing this from a nullsec player, I'm not terribly astonished. Roll I am in no way surprised at your support of the CSM.

When told the changes he desired could negatively affect lowsec, one CSM member replied "like lowsec is even relevant." Given such remarks, and the little gems in the minutes (honestly, try reading them from a lowsec perspective), you might understand how many who voted for these selfish pricks but do not live in null-sec, might feel a bit betrayed.


Lowsec isn't relevant at the moment, because it has nothing to fight over. The CSM has been up CCPs ass for ages trying to give Lowsec some industrial reason for being, and CCP hasn't done it. Snide comments about relevance seems to be roughly the amount of effort the CSM's willing to put into fixing lowsec because higher levels of exertion have done diddly in the past.

Quote:

If the CSM elections can gamed in such a way that nullsec alliances fill the board, and if CCP cannot find a means to prevent this, then the CSM becomes only the mouthpiece of null, whispering in CCP's ear, while other areas of the game go unheard. At that point, the CSM has outlived its usefulness.


Yeah, organized groups can organize votes to consolidate power. Welcome to what we in the US figured out in 1797 with the rise of political parties. (Ok, the Federalists and Anti-Federalists were around well before Adams, and they had a huge influence in the writing of the Constitution, but I'm marking 1797 with the first party backed president as the rise of political parties)

Quote:

Again... I have to say that if an all Lowsec CSM began screwing over Empire, Null, and WH space, I'd be fighting them on the issues. And I live in lowsec! I guess it all comes down to personal values.

That an elected representative of the players desires would only push forth the ones which would benefit himself and his friends is sad beyond compare.

And, BTW: I voted for Selene. Given his nature and the fact he was involved in development, I felt he would be a voice of balanced reason in the CSM. I am highly disappointed.



I want a healthy Hisec experience that's dependent on Null, WH, and Low. I want a healthy Lowsec experience that's dependent on Null, WH, and High. etc.

Right now, Lowsec's irrelevant because nothing depends on it for anything substantial.
Hisec's unhealthy because Eve's attracted a huge population of the worst sort of risk aversion.
Null is unhealthy because it's being continuously depopulated, which leads to NAPfests.
WH space is probably the healthiest, but POS mechanics make it soul crushing to live there.

I think the CSM is better at advocating these goals than CCP is. I don't think they're perfect, but they're better than CCP, and every replacement idea I've seen puts their portfolio back into CCP's hands.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Plutonian
Intransigent
#525 - 2012-01-22 18:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Plutonian
RubyPorto wrote:
Lowsec isn't relevant at the moment, because it has nothing to fight over.
Insert Amamake 3-1 battle stats.

RubyPorto wrote:
Yeah, organized groups can organize votes to consolidate power. Welcome to what we in the US figured out in 1797 with the rise of political parties.
Crime occurs everywhere... so why shouldn't I rob this convince store?



RubyPorto wrote:
I want a healthy Hisec experience that's dependent on Null, WH, and Low. I want a healthy Lowsec experience that's dependent on Null, WH, and High. etc.
We agree on this point. Balance... not a small group's idea of 'endgame'.

RubyPorto wrote:
Right now, Lowsec's irrelevant because nothing depends on it for anything substantial.
Hisec's unhealthy because Eve's attracted a huge population of the worst sort of risk aversion.
Null is unhealthy because it's being continuously depopulated, which leads to NAPfests.
WH space is probably the healthiest, but POS mechanics make it soul crushing to live there.
And yet, the minutes show the CSM pushing for improvements to sov-holding nullsec, at the expense of every other area of gameplay.


Shall we just agree to disagree?

EDIT: Just to clear: Given the minutes presented and the suggestions stated within them, what actual data can you provide to convince me the CSM has not become Grima Wormtounge, whispering malice in the King's ear?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#526 - 2012-01-22 18:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Plutonian wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Lowsec isn't relevant at the moment, because it has nothing to fight over.
Insert Amamake 3-1 battle stats.

RubyPorto wrote:
Yeah, organized groups can organize votes to consolidate power. Welcome to what we in the US figured out in 1797 with the rise of political parties.
Crime occurs everywhere... so why shouldn't I rob this convince store?


I don't follow. How are political parties bad? They tend to prevent tiny but organized minorities from taking hugely disproportionate levels of power (example, the CSM).

Quote:

RubyPorto wrote:
I want a healthy Hisec experience that's dependent on Null, WH, and Low. I want a healthy Lowsec experience that's dependent on Null, WH, and High. etc.
We agree on this point. Balance... not a small group's idea of 'endgame'.

And yet, the minutes show the CSM pushing for improvements to sov-holding nullsec, at the expense of every other area of gameplay.


Shall we just agree to disagree?

EDIT: Just to clear: Given the minutes presented and the suggestions stated within them, what actual data can you provide to convince me the CSM has not become Grima Wormtounge, whispering malice in the King's ear?

[/quote]

I disagree that they're pushing improvements to null -at the expense of everywhere else-

The King was Crazy and Corrupt before Grima showed up, in this case.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Plutonian
Intransigent
#527 - 2012-01-22 19:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Plutonian
RubyPorto wrote:
I don't follow. How are political parties bad? They tend to prevent tiny but organized minorities from taking hugely disproportionate levels of power (example, the CSM).
Is it not ironic that a tiny organized minority is currently using that very system to direct CCP towards their own desires at the expense of the majority of players? (Yes, believe it or not, more players reside in NPC-null, Empire, Low, and WH space than in sov-null.)

RubyPorto wrote:
I disagree that they're pushing improvements to null -at the expense of everywhere else-
Might I direct you to the posts within this thread and others? Perhaps a topic cruise through GD or any of the FW threads of this very forum? It would seem a great many paid accounts disagree with you. It is highly likely these players do not reside in sov-holding nullsec.

RubyPorto wrote:
The King was Crazy and Corrupt before Grima showed up, in this case.
This does not validate Grima's actions.


Edited for pure quoting fail. X
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
#528 - 2012-01-22 19:57:23 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
Leave the drake alone. It is a pve ship and it tanks extremely well but you sacrifice dps to get that tank. To get even decent dps from it compared to the other bc's you must drastically reduce it's tank.


1) Besides Marauders, there's no such thing as a PvE ship.
2) Decent PvE ships are Gankey, not Tankey
3) The engagement range plus tankeyness is the main issue in PvP. And you need sacrifice no DPS for that tank. (Unless you've found a DPS midslot of which I am unaware)

Drakes are generally passive tanked, which means SPR and PDS in the low slots instead of BCS (thereby trading DPS for tank). And mid-slot modules can be traded for increased DPS too (e.g. TP, web).

Agree with Omega - Drake is well balanced as it is, in terms of the tank vs. gank trade-off.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#529 - 2012-01-22 20:25:32 UTC
Plutonian wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
I don't follow. How are political parties bad? They tend to prevent tiny but organized minorities from taking hugely disproportionate levels of power (example, the CSM).
Is it not ironic that a tiny organized minority is currently using that very system to direct CCP towards their own desires at the expense of the majority of players? (Yes, believe it or not, more players reside in NPC-null, Empire, Low, and WH space than in sov-null.)


I see no irony there. It is a validation of broad based political parties in RL though. And I think the last census put something like 80% of characters in Hisec (though I live in Null and have more toons in High/Low than null). The way to combat small, organized groups of people controlling elections is by organizing a larger, equally organized group of people. Iterate this a few times and you get a 2 party system ~90% of the time.

Quote:

Might I direct you to the posts within this thread and others? Perhaps a topic cruise through GD or any of the FW threads of this very forum? It would seem a great many paid accounts disagree with you. It is highly likely these players do not reside in sov-holding nullsec.


I really don't know much about FW, so I'll leave how to improve that alone.
Most topics I see about fixing Hisec are either "CCP you broke wardecs by allowing Decshielding", "I got wardecced, CCP should punish my attackers", "I got ganked, CCP should punish those Bad People", or "I want my Incursions to keep making 100m/hr because it has the risk of lost ships due to DCs". One of those statements I agree with,

Nullsec balancing, there are topics about "Fixing Moon Goo" (CSM seems to be pushing that), "Fixing Supers/Titans" (CSM has also been working on that. Check out The Mittani's position on Titans in his blog). "Make space liveable for the average person", then a bunch of whines about local.

Quote:

RubyPorto wrote:
The King was Crazy and Corrupt before Grima showed up, in this case.
This does not validate Grima's actions.

Edited for pure quoting fail. X


The quote system on the forums leaves so much to be desired.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#530 - 2012-01-22 20:28:44 UTC
Ang Min wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
Leave the drake alone. It is a pve ship and it tanks extremely well but you sacrifice dps to get that tank. To get even decent dps from it compared to the other bc's you must drastically reduce it's tank.


1) Besides Marauders, there's no such thing as a PvE ship.
2) Decent PvE ships are Gankey, not Tankey
3) The engagement range plus tankeyness is the main issue in PvP. And you need sacrifice no DPS for that tank. (Unless you've found a DPS midslot of which I am unaware)

Drakes are generally passive tanked, which means SPR and PDS in the low slots instead of BCS (thereby trading DPS for tank). And mid-slot modules can be traded for increased DPS too (e.g. TP, web).

Agree with Omega - Drake is well balanced as it is, in terms of the tank vs. gank trade-off.


A good Mission drake has 3 BCS. Last Mission drake I owned had a TP, an AB, and 3 BCS. And you can get by without a TP with intelligent reloading.

More importantly, ships are not balanced around their PvE potential, because you're not compromising the fun of the blinky red cross when you slaughter it every single time you fight.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Plutonian
Intransigent
#531 - 2012-01-22 20:52:55 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
The way to combat small, organized groups of people controlling elections is by organizing a larger, equally organized group of people. Iterate this a few times and you get a 2 party system ~90% of the time.

I question whether the individualist nature of pirates, solo fighters, solo mission runners, etc., will ever allow them to compete on equal terms with a coordinated bloc of nullsec residents. In the Real World, one would say 'working as intended'... coordinated efforts naturally succeed more often. But In a subscriber-base game, I'd have to say this is not an optimal way of focusing on game improvement as a whole. In short; the little guy tends to get the shaft. How many 'little guys' pay a subscription, and is this relevant to CCP's interests?

And, honestly, that's my point in debating the topic with you. The blind hope that CCP is watching and realizes the CSM, in spite of its intended role, is advocating changes desired by a minority of their customers.

RubyPorto wrote:
The quote system on the forums leaves so much to be desired.
In this we are in perfect agreement. Blink
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#532 - 2012-01-22 20:57:13 UTC
Plutonian wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
The way to combat small, organized groups of people controlling elections is by organizing a larger, equally organized group of people. Iterate this a few times and you get a 2 party system ~90% of the time.

I question whether the individualist nature of pirates, solo fighters, solo mission runners, etc., will ever allow them to compete on equal terms with a coordinated bloc of nullsec residents. In the Real World, one would say 'working as intended'... coordinated efforts naturally succeed more often. But In a subscriber-base game, I'd have to say this is not an optimal way of focusing on game improvement as a whole. In short; the little guy tends to get the shaft. How many 'little guys' pay a subscription, and is this relevant to CCP's interests?

And, honestly, that's my point in debating the topic with you. The blind hope that CCP is watching and realizes the CSM, in spite of its intended role, is advocating changes desired by a minority of their customers.

RubyPorto wrote:
The quote system on the forums leaves so much to be desired.
In this we are in perfect agreement. Blink


I get that. The problem is finding something better. CCP should hopefully, by now, have figured out that they're not very good at listening to their customers (or maybe it's that they can't understand the words that come out of our fingers). More importantly, with a large, diverse, vocal, and crazy customerbase like they have, they need some kind of filter. They certainly can't pick one, because [point 1], so they need the players to pick one. When the players pick one, they can't interfere, because [point 1].

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Plutonian
Intransigent
#533 - 2012-01-22 21:14:44 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
I get that. The problem is finding something better. CCP should hopefully, by now, have figured out that they're not very good at listening to their customers (or maybe it's that they can't understand the words that come out of our fingers). More importantly, with a large, diverse, vocal, and crazy customerbase like they have, they need some kind of filter. They certainly can't pick one, because [point 1], so they need the players to pick one. When the players pick one, they can't interfere, because [point 1].

I have enjoyed our debate.

Good Fight. Blink
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#534 - 2012-01-22 22:02:10 UTC
Plutonian wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
I get that. The problem is finding something better. CCP should hopefully, by now, have figured out that they're not very good at listening to their customers (or maybe it's that they can't understand the words that come out of our fingers). More importantly, with a large, diverse, vocal, and crazy customerbase like they have, they need some kind of filter. They certainly can't pick one, because [point 1], so they need the players to pick one. When the players pick one, they can't interfere, because [point 1].

I have enjoyed our debate.

Good Fight. Blink


Good Fight indeed. It's really nice to be able to essentially agree on the facts with someone and argue about the differing conclusions we reach. Much less tiring than fighting about what the facts are.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Aiifa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#535 - 2012-01-23 11:42:14 UTC
Two step wrote:
Plenty of good stuff in there, and if folks have any questions, feel free to ask!



Am I going to have to come into your wormhole?

I'm worried that as the old CSMs provided no impediment to CCP ******* up nullsec, the new CSM will provide no impediment to CCP ******* over wh space.

Any mention of a mass stabilizing module must be met by immediate howls of hooting derision. Wormholes work great.

And there is no such thing as an impenetrable fortress or whatever they described it as in the minutes.

You can have a pos on every moon, you can have your tiny subcaps-only static critted and camped. Short of round the clock probing and dread pilots + support sitting ready to cycle holes or fight (both of which are an obscene expenditure of people's time) no system is safe. We will find a way in. It is working just fine.

Changes to drakes? The damage type specific bonus should be kept. Tanking kin damage in anticipation of tengu/drake blobs is one of the meaningful counters against these easymode ships. Also everyone already has their scourge bpos :(

When it comes to EAS, t1 low class ships etc, I think one of the biggest problems is not what the hulls are capable of but how they are capable of being used.

There have always been odd people in lowsec who make hulls like the hyena or the celestis upsettingly powerful. They are unique and in certain situations devastating ships.

They don't need a buff. The systemic problem is how ewar, especially secondary ewar (tracks, damps and paints as opposed to neuts, scrams, points, webs and jams) scale poorly in even small gangs.

Having an overview filter, having better target tagging and more tools for a fleet to direct their resources would make t1 damp/track/paint bonused cruisers far more worthwhile, for instance. For a young player, an arbitrator is worth bringing to a armor fleet fight, believe it or not.

Against the current plethora of alpha stroms in null, one poorly skilled arby can force three maelstroms to either waste time reloading or fight in second falloff. But how to see which of the hostiles have been affected?

Currently, it takes an out of game voice comms solution, time-consuming organization and careful discipline to apply ewar like this effectively, and it is one of the first things to go to **** if a fight goes any way other than planned. Ewar target callers need the working memory of a modern workstation and more caffeine than is healthy.

Likewise, atrons work well because of their small native sig, and the minmater probe is just a covops that has accepted there isn't much point in warping cloaked with a fleet.

Kill the tiers, but don't give them an outright buff.

What would make more sense is tweaking any local tank bonuses on certain hulls, and allowing the ui changes to bring the way ships are used to a new dynamic equilibrium before making further changes.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#536 - 2012-01-23 11:57:51 UTC
Aiifa wrote:
SO MUCH WIN


Balance via UI design. I love it.

Maybe set up something like a tags settings menu. Let there be more than just ABC..123 tags, something like a Point Tag, etc. It would still be something a player would have to actively do, and require that people have their overview's set up to take advantage of it, but I can see something like that being a huge improvement.


BTW: @CCP, if you put a expansion together (proper sized one. We love crucible, but it's a mini[the amount of win in the mini makes us love it more]) that affected no in game mechanics, nor WIS, nor Graphical improvements, and instead focused your entire efforts on improving the UI... it would be ... well received(As in, Do it near fan fest, and you won't have a choice about crowd surfing).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#537 - 2012-01-23 13:18:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Flames
RubyPorto wrote:
Ang Min wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
Leave the drake alone. It is a pve ship and it tanks extremely well but you sacrifice dps to get that tank. To get even decent dps from it compared to the other bc's you must drastically reduce it's tank.


1) Besides Marauders, there's no such thing as a PvE ship.
2) Decent PvE ships are Gankey, not Tankey
3) The engagement range plus tankeyness is the main issue in PvP. And you need sacrifice no DPS for that tank. (Unless you've found a DPS midslot of which I am unaware)

Drakes are generally passive tanked, which means SPR and PDS in the low slots instead of BCS (thereby trading DPS for tank). And mid-slot modules can be traded for increased DPS too (e.g. TP, web).

Agree with Omega - Drake is well balanced as it is, in terms of the tank vs. gank trade-off.


A good Mission drake has 3 BCS. Last Mission drake I owned had a TP, an AB, and 3 BCS. And you can get by without a TP with intelligent reloading.

More importantly, ships are not balanced around their PvE potential, because you're not compromising the fun of the blinky red cross when you slaughter it every single time you fight.

Ok even if we looked at it on the pvp aspect that 85km range means squat if you dont have a point on the person so in a 1v1 you will still have to be inside the 24km range of the t2 warp disruptor...which is squarely inside the range of all the longrange medium turrent weapons. So that extra 60km you could use means squat now so no need for CCP or the CSM to be complaining about range issues of the drake.
Aiifa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#538 - 2012-01-23 13:32:56 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:
Ok even if we looked at it on the pvp aspect that 85km range means squat if you dont have a point on the person so in a 1v1 you will still have to be inside the 24km range of the t2 warp disruptor...which is squarely inside the range of all the longrange medium turrent weapons. So that extra 60km you could use means squat now so no need for CCP or the CSM to be complaining about range issues of the drake.


how about gang/fleet the majority of pvp
Lunce
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#539 - 2012-01-23 13:43:36 UTC

[/quote]

I want a healthy Hisec experience that's dependent on Null, WH, and Low. I want a healthy Lowsec experience that's dependent on Null, WH, and High. etc.

Right now, Lowsec's irrelevant because nothing depends on it for anything substantial.
Hisec's unhealthy because Eve's attracted a huge population of the worst sort of risk aversion.
Null is unhealthy because it's being continuously depopulated, which leads to NAPfests.
WH space is probably the healthiest, but POS mechanics make it soul crushing to live there.

[/quote]


^ This
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#540 - 2012-01-23 13:54:28 UTC
Aiifa wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
Ok even if we looked at it on the pvp aspect that 85km range means squat if you dont have a point on the person so in a 1v1 you will still have to be inside the 24km range of the t2 warp disruptor...which is squarely inside the range of all the longrange medium turrent weapons. So that extra 60km you could use means squat now so no need for CCP or the CSM to be complaining about range issues of the drake.


how about gang/fleet the majority of pvp

The reasons given for changing the drake are that it can do everything effectively and it has too much range compared to the other bc's. Even in 200 bc vs 200 bc fleets the extra range means nothing if someone isn't getting points on them and if you are using something other than a drake to provide those points then it's no longer a bc vs bc comparision.