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The Financial Report
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Quinn Hatfield
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2017-04-27 20:29:28 UTC
Fish Hunter wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
1. web your freighter into warp, you should be gone before they can ever get that bump off
2. don't carry so much value in cargo so you aren't an attractive gank
3. fit bulk heads instead of cargo expanders to require more ships to gank.
4. set up some warp out bookmarks, they will likely bump you away from a celestial so burn out behind the gate and make some bookmarks in odd directions.
5. use instawarp bookmarks when leaving stations
6. use instadock bookmarks when going to stations.


I think you forgot the most obvious option

DON'T FLY A FREIGHTER - make someone else do it
Red Frog FTW, outsourcing your risk is always a good option.

I don't burn bridges, I merely steal a bolt a day.
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2017-04-27 20:35:15 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
So you're telling me that you can't hit 2 or 3 keys in sequence in just under half a second? Roll; anybody that can type at a reasonable speed can do it, the average person averages between 30 and 40 words per minutes, that's way more than 120 characters and it doesn't require macros.

Oh and just for reference, the server tick is 1 second, multiple keystrokes made during the time between ticks may appear to have been made simultaneously and thus give the illusion of input broadcasting.


You bring up a good point about the server tick being one second, I hadn't considered that part. So lets use that 1 second window of time as the base line. This isn't just a matter of typing quickly, I type 80 wpm accurately. You have to type and click on 10 different windows. So lets say you have 10 clients on, your windows are cascaded, your overviews only show your target ship and nothing else. Lets see a video of you targeting and firing on that target on all 10 windows within 1 second. Remember you can't use macros, input broadcasting, or the cutting together of different sections of windows onto a single window.

You're making it sound super easy to do, so do it. Lets see the video, put your money where your mouth is.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2017-04-27 20:37:30 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

There are of course other options as long as you are willing to play with other players in this multiplayer game.



If you said that with a straight face I applaud you. Let me ask you how many times have you helped someone else by following their freighter alt in highsec webbing it for them within the last....2 years? I'm sorry but this "Lets just throw alts at it until the problem goes away" solution is kind of nonsense.


If your opponent is throwing 45 character at you, why do you expect to "beat" them at their game solo?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#64 - 2017-04-27 20:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kassimila wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
So you're telling me that you can't hit 2 or 3 keys in sequence in just under half a second? Roll; anybody that can type at a reasonable speed can do it, the average person averages between 30 and 40 words per minutes, that's way more than 120 characters and it doesn't require macros.

Oh and just for reference, the server tick is 1 second, multiple keystrokes made during the time between ticks may appear to have been made simultaneously and thus give the illusion of input broadcasting.


You bring up a good point about the server tick being one second, I hadn't considered that part. So lets use that 1 second window of time as the base line. This isn't just a matter of typing quickly, I type 80 wpm accurately. You have to type and click on 10 different windows. So lets say you have 10 clients on, your windows are cascaded, your overviews only show your target ship and nothing else. Lets see a video of you targeting and firing on that target on all 10 windows within 1 second. Remember you can't use macros, input broadcasting, or the cutting together of different sections of windows onto a single window.

You're making it sound super easy to do, so do it. Lets see the video, put your money where your mouth is.
I don't multiibox anymore, used to run a team of 4-6 drakes in C3's and never had a problem with switching between clients (one hotkey to simulate alt tab) and spamming F1 quickly, the overview is configurable to show only your desired target ship class, so not hard to do. There's plenty of youtube/twitch videos showing people doing it without macros.

You're the one making accusations, it's up to you to prove them; I'm just saying that what you claim is input broadcasting or macros is achievable manually.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#65 - 2017-04-27 20:47:53 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


If your opponent is throwing 45 character at you, why do you expect to "beat" them at their game solo?


I don't. However that single human being controlling 45 characters at once is cheating so, why should they be allowed to win?
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#66 - 2017-04-27 20:53:19 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I don't multiibox anymore, used to run a team of 4-6 drakes in C3's and never had a problem with switching between clients (one hotkey to simulate alt tab) and spamming F1 quickly, the overview is configurable to show only your desired target ship class, so not hard to do. There's plenty of youtube/twitch videos showing people doing it without macros.


No no, enough talk. Do it. Lets see it.

Here are the terms:

10 Clients.
No Broadcasting, Macros, screen cutting. (Or any other EULA breaches)
Video of clients, with split of your fingers to verify no macro.
You must target and fire at a single target within 1 second.

First person to be able to do this gets 500mil.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2017-04-27 20:55:02 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


If your opponent is throwing 45 character at you, why do you expect to "beat" them at their game solo?


I don't. However that single human being controlling 45 characters at once is cheating so, why should they be allowed to win?


It's only cheating if it is done by method against the EULA.
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#68 - 2017-04-27 20:58:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


If your opponent is throwing 45 character at you, why do you expect to "beat" them at their game solo?


I don't. However that single human being controlling 45 characters at once is cheating so, why should they be allowed to win?


It's only cheating if it is done by method against the EULA.


See above post.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#69 - 2017-04-27 21:07:21 UTC
Fish Hunter wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
1. web your freighter into warp, you should be gone before they can ever get that bump off
2. don't carry so much value in cargo so you aren't an attractive gank
3. fit bulk heads instead of cargo expanders to require more ships to gank.
4. set up some warp out bookmarks, they will likely bump you away from a celestial so burn out behind the gate and make some bookmarks in odd directions.
5. use instawarp bookmarks when leaving stations
6. use instadock bookmarks when going to stations.


I think you forgot the most obvious option

DON'T FLY A FREIGHTER - make someone else do it

geeze how did I forget that, as that's my primary method of keeping my freighters safe

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2017-04-27 21:07:55 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


If your opponent is throwing 45 character at you, why do you expect to "beat" them at their game solo?


I don't. However that single human being controlling 45 characters at once is cheating so, why should they be allowed to win?


It's only cheating if it is done by method against the EULA.


See above post.


The fact that some people can't do something does not mean other's can't. Also, nobody has to prove anything to you. As long as CCP does nothing, you pretty much ahve to accept they aren't doing anything wrong. In the mean time, you can protect your freighter with alts or let it die.

Or maybe you never lost a freighter and are just concerned about other's freighters. I mean, NC. means you are elite right?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2017-04-27 21:09:09 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Fish Hunter wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
1. web your freighter into warp, you should be gone before they can ever get that bump off
2. don't carry so much value in cargo so you aren't an attractive gank
3. fit bulk heads instead of cargo expanders to require more ships to gank.
4. set up some warp out bookmarks, they will likely bump you away from a celestial so burn out behind the gate and make some bookmarks in odd directions.
5. use instawarp bookmarks when leaving stations
6. use instadock bookmarks when going to stations.


I think you forgot the most obvious option

DON'T FLY A FREIGHTER - make someone else do it

geeze how did I forget that, as that's my primary method of keeping my freighters safe


Damn you not hinting at the best options!!!

I did MY part of suggesting a really bad one.

Big smile
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#72 - 2017-04-27 21:23:39 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
That seems to be the consensus here. Tank your freighter/Make 20 alts yourself/don't carry enough to be gankable. So lets break that down.

Freighter cost: 1.23 bil
Purpose of Freighter: To haul many things.
Freighter Fit: x3 T2 bulkheads, EHP vs antimatter: 402k

vs

T1 Gank catalyst:
Cost: 3.8mil
DPS: 454 with overheat
Total Required for .5 sec kill: 45
Cost of Attack: 171mil

So: The break even on loot value is 350mil. Ignoring the fact that you just destroyed a ship worth 1.3bil for the cost of 171mil. You actually make a profit if the person is carrying 2 T1 battleship hulls? So basically unless you have a cargo hold of trit and nothing else, you're worth killing is my point here.


there is a huge opportunity cost of using 45 accounts to gank a freighter. If your goal is isk making you could do nearly anything and make more as a group. If your goal is lulz, well then you can gank any freighter. Most gankers go for profit, ganks for luls seem pretty rare ouside of burn jita which is what, one weekend per year?

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#73 - 2017-04-27 21:39:06 UTC
Quinn Hatfield wrote:
Red Frog FTW, outsourcing your risk is always a good option.

nah, go public you can pay even less Pirate

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#74 - 2017-04-27 21:52:46 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
Quinn Hatfield wrote:
Red Frog FTW, outsourcing your risk is always a good option.

nah, go public you can pay even less Pirate
Out of the four to six hundred public courier contracts my builder puts up each year, usually two or three fail.

This is why, based on purely anecdotal evidence, I take all this whining over freighter ganking with a grain of salt. These guys do it for a living. All day. Every day. And while it only takes one successful gank to put you over a billion in the red, the guys running all over New Eden in freighters feel they come out ahead at the end of the day.

You can't argue with the guys who actually successfully do the thing that you are whining is the next EVE killer.

Mr Epeen Cool
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#75 - 2017-04-27 22:06:54 UTC
Cade Windstalker
#76 - 2017-04-28 02:34:36 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
That seems to be the consensus here. Tank your freighter/Make 20 alts yourself/don't carry enough to be gankable. So lets break that down.

Freighter cost: 1.23 bil
Purpose of Freighter: To haul many things.
Freighter Fit: x3 T2 bulkheads, EHP vs antimatter: 402k

vs

T1 Gank catalyst:
Cost: 3.8mil
DPS: 454 with overheat
Total Required for .5 sec kill: 45
Cost of Attack: 171mil

So: The break even on loot value is 350mil. Ignoring the fact that you just destroyed a ship worth 1.3bil for the cost of 171mil. You actually make a profit if the person is carrying 2 T1 battleship hulls? So basically unless you have a cargo hold of trit and nothing else, you're worth killing is my point here.



The thing you're missing here is that it takes about 50 people to pull off an attack like that in a .5 system because while Catalysts are *very* ISK efficient they're not very DPS efficient.

That's why most people ganking Freighters these days use Bombers.

It still takes ~20-ish Bombers to gank a Freighter in a .5 system at a cost of 40m per bomber. Total cost of gank 800m, break even point, ~2b.

This also assumes that you do no scouting, have no webbing alt or friend, and basically just pilot your Freighter taking no other precautions against spontaneous disassembly. I'm pretty sure if you're hauling more than 2b in a 1b hull you can afford to find a newbie friend that you at least sorta trust and pay him 10m per jump to web you, either for the whole trip or for the 10 or so jumps starting 1-2 behind Uedama and ending 1-2 past Niarja. Total cost to haul whatever you want through High Sec with no risk of being ganked, 100m.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2017-04-28 04:35:59 UTC
Kassimila wrote:



That seems to be the consensus here. Tank your freighter/Make 20 alts yourself/don't carry enough to be gankable. So lets break that down.

Freighter cost: 1.23 bil
Purpose of Freighter: To haul many things.



Nope. Purpose of the freighter is to carry bulk low value things, with some adjustability via expanders and bulkheads to deal with various ranges of low value. One low value item that fits into a freighter is a repackaged shuttle, another is an unrigged blockade runner.

That is a major, major misconception about its design purpose.

Quote:



Freighter Fit: x3 T2 bulkheads, EHP vs antimatter: 402k

vs

T1 Gank catalyst:
Cost: 3.8mil
DPS: 454 with overheat
Total Required for .5 sec kill: 45
Cost of Attack: 171mil

So: The break even on loot value is 350mil. Ignoring the fact that you just destroyed a ship worth 1.3bil for the cost of 171mil. You actually make a profit if the person is carrying 2 T1 battleship hulls? So basically unless you have a cargo hold of trit and nothing else, you're worth killing is my point here.



That is what a freighter load should look like in the chokes. There shouldn't be the whole mineral basket, there should be whatever was overpriced or unobtanium, or would constitute excessive volume for the local market and thus become overpriced if it wasn't being shipped.

I haul hulls, like 2 jumps from build location to hub. Maybe 3-4 if you lived in the forge.
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#78 - 2017-04-30 18:04:12 UTC
I love the complete backpedal on this thread. I ask for proof, offer up 500mil, and silence is what I get in response. I mean you'd think if the current multi client T1 dessie spammers were legit, that they'd come pickup a free 500mil. LULZ