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The Financial Report

Author
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#41 - 2017-04-27 19:06:28 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kassimila wrote:


I disagree, the changes to mining barges have helped with the good ol can flipping trick. Where new players wouldn't realize what was going on. The main cause of this volume of losses however is high sec freighter ganking. The issue with this is there is no counter play to it. There is no action the defending player can take to save their ship. It is impossible to warp while being repeatedly bumped, and you cannot safe log while targeted. This could all EASILY be solved by allowing freighters to fit the energized emergency hull modification. Which would take a total of maybe 8 hours of dev time to add at most.

The proper punishing of criminal characters however is a longer fix. Some form of interaction with player bounties, and WingspanTT's idea of making 'bounty hunting' a viable profession could I think do some good however.


You know that trying to punish them makes them gank more and adapt in other ways right?

And whatever happened to CCP's anti bump warp mechanic?

That's the whole point, people keep pushing CCP to act, eventually they do, the people targeted by the nerfs adapt and retaliate. Meanwhile, interesting gameplay avenues for people who didn't need CCP intervention shrink as CCP tries (and fails) to Coddle it's way to higher player numbers).

All that needed to be done hasn't change: concerned players need to teach people how to thwart and avoid the people who do the "bad things". trying to 'legislate' them away via DEV action not only doesn't work, it backfires. I can't even remember how many times CCP announced some change that people thought was going to negatively affect 'bad guys' like the changes to war decs, bounties, the aforemention EHP buff etc, only to see those changes fail and the 'bad guys' become even more effective.

So I'll ask again, how many more times does that have to happen before people realize that there is no mechanical fix to 'bad guys'? The only fix is education and cooperation (2 things that are hard to come by in high sec for some reason).


Alright I'll bite. How does a player in a freighter 'avoid' a high sec gank? Let me set the situation for you. You're a lone pilot in a freighter, you jump through a gate into a .6 system. You begin aligning to warp to the next gate. Suddenly a random neutral in a mach locks you, scans you, and bumps you for the next 2 minutes of your life. 10+ catalysts log in, and blap you. Please tell me how you avoid that.


Highlighted the problem there for you. A Pilot can afford a freighter but can't make friends who can use webs, or make a webbing alt?

Your example is actually perfect, it shows that the problem is the limited thinking and lack of imagination and creativity of the pilots, not some mechanics problem that can be 'solved' by CCP.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#42 - 2017-04-27 19:10:44 UTC
1. web your freighter into warp, you should be gone before they can ever get that bump off
2. don't carry so much value in cargo so you aren't an attractive gank
3. fit bulk heads instead of cargo expanders to require more ships to gank.
4. set up some warp out bookmarks, they will likely bump you away from a celestial so burn out behind the gate and make some bookmarks in odd directions.
5. use instawarp bookmarks when leaving stations
6. use instadock bookmarks when going to stations.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Cade Windstalker
#43 - 2017-04-27 19:17:17 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Alright I'll bite. How does a player in a freighter 'avoid' a high sec gank? Let me set the situation for you. You're a lone pilot in a freighter, you jump through a gate into a .6 system. You begin aligning to warp to the next gate. Suddenly a random neutral in a mach locks you, scans you, and bumps you for the next 2 minutes of your life. 10+ catalysts log in, and blap you. Please tell me how you avoid that.


Tank your #$&@ing Freighter.

A Freighter with bulkheads fitted instead of inertial stabs has almost 55% more EHP and Bulkheads instead of Expanders means 120% more EHP, which means it takes that many more people and/or DPS to gank it, which makes it much harder to gank profitably. Throw in a little care with what you haul and when you do so and it's very easy to never get ganked in High Sec because the vast majority of the ganks in High Sec are done for profit.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#44 - 2017-04-27 19:18:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kassimila wrote:
I think you all keep missing a key point in your High Vs. Null Comparisons. This is a game, in which the 'high security' zones exist for players that are new or not interested in player vs player content.
Wrong.

Hisec is as much a PvP area as any other part of the game, the difference between hisec and the other regions of space is that the mechanics impose a cost on that PvP.

Quote:
That all being said when I see things like people with Neg 10 security status hanging out in high security space, without concord destroying them. Or the Caldari navy Benny hilling after some hated foe, without ever being able to catch them. I would have to say it's quite laughable. While I believe that you should be able to war dec kill other corporations in high sec (although the cost of declaring that war is lower than it should be) the suicide ganks need to be punished more.
Concord's sole purpose is to impose a cost on unsanctioned aggression, they are not there to go after negative 10s that aren't engaged in it, nor are they there to ensure the safety of those that can't be bothered to do it for themselves.

Chasing negative 10s is the purpose of the Faction Police, who are by design are able to be evaded, fought, beaten and sometimes farmed; Concord are by design unavoidable, unfightable and unbeatable, although this wasn't always the case.

Quote:
Some ideas for this would be: Making concord actually catch and kill criminals.
They already do, you appear to be confusing the term criminal with outlaw; the former is the result of a flag, the latter the result of security status.

Quote:
Put that character in 'prison' for a duration of time while their sec status slowly improves. Edit: Forgot to add that the player would be able to buy their way out of prison for a decent amount of iskies (yay more isk sinks!).
The 15 minute GCC timer is the prison, while under that timer a criminal can do very little except collect your tears, which are both delicious and nourishing.

Quote:
Lets stop pretending that some doofus ISboxing 30 million isk worth of destroyers, without any repercussion for high sec ganking is a good and healthy game mechanic.
Why isn't it a good game mechanic?

Without it there would be very little risk in hisec, which goes against one of the core principles of Eve, that being that somebody can screw up your day regardless of your location. I won't even bother going into the ramifications for the economy of an extremely low risk hisec.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack

Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2017-04-27 19:25:08 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Quote:
Lets stop pretending that some doofus ISboxing 30 million isk worth of destroyers, without any repercussion for high sec ganking is a good and healthy game mechanic.
Why isn't it a good game mechanic?, without it there would be very little risk in hisec, which goes against one of the core principles of Eve, that being that somebody can screw up your day regardless of your location.


Well for one it's against the EULA to use that program for multiple inputs. To your second point of 'the core principles of eve", if that was the case why did they ever buff concord to make them untankable? Why not allow the 1 billion isk freighters to fit weapons, and defensive mods? Let me be REALLY clear here. I have absolutely NO ISSUE, with the ability to gank players in high security space. My issue here is that there is zero counter play to the current systems functioning.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2017-04-27 19:26:07 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Kassimila wrote:

Lets stop pretending that some doofus ISboxing 30 million isk worth of destroyers, without any repercussion for high sec ganking is a good and healthy game mechanic.

You will laugh, it is a good game mechanic. It effectively separates the stupid/greedy from the rest.


How so? Can you elaborate on your point?

Easy, people good at this game either don't get ganked or don't care if so. On the other side, people who complain or see ganks as a problem, you know ... look above. Blink

I'm my own NPC alt.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#47 - 2017-04-27 19:35:36 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Quote:
Lets stop pretending that some doofus ISboxing 30 million isk worth of destroyers, without any repercussion for high sec ganking is a good and healthy game mechanic.
Why isn't it a good game mechanic?, without it there would be very little risk in hisec, which goes against one of the core principles of Eve, that being that somebody can screw up your day regardless of your location.


Well for one it's against the EULA to use that program for multiple inputs. To your second point of 'the core principles of eve", if that was the case why did they ever buff concord to make them untankable? Why not allow the 1 billion isk freighters to fit weapons, and defensive mods? Let me be REALLY clear here. I have absolutely NO ISSUE, with the ability to gank players in high security space. My issue here is that there is zero counter play to the current systems functioning.

7. bring your own 30 person fleet to combat the gankers, they brought 30 to gank you, why aren't you bringing 30 for defense?

if someone is input broadcasting ccp will take action against them, and freighters can fit defensive mods, and it is outside of their role to fit offensive weapons.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2017-04-27 19:39:00 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
Alright I'll bite. How does a player in a freighter 'avoid' a high sec gank? Let me set the situation for you. You're a lone pilot in a freighter, you jump through a gate into a .6 system. You begin aligning to warp to the next gate. Suddenly a random neutral in a mach locks you, scans you, and bumps you for the next 2 minutes of your life. 10+ catalysts log in, and blap you. Please tell me how you avoid that.


Tank your #$&@ing Freighter.

A Freighter with bulkheads fitted instead of inertial stabs has almost 55% more EHP and Bulkheads instead of Expanders means 120% more EHP, which means it takes that many more people and/or DPS to gank it, which makes it much harder to gank profitably. Throw in a little care with what you haul and when you do so and it's very easy to never get ganked in High Sec because the vast majority of the ganks in High Sec are done for profit.



That seems to be the consensus here. Tank your freighter/Make 20 alts yourself/don't carry enough to be gankable. So lets break that down.

Freighter cost: 1.23 bil
Purpose of Freighter: To haul many things.
Freighter Fit: x3 T2 bulkheads, EHP vs antimatter: 402k

vs

T1 Gank catalyst:
Cost: 3.8mil
DPS: 454 with overheat
Total Required for .5 sec kill: 45
Cost of Attack: 171mil

So: The break even on loot value is 350mil. Ignoring the fact that you just destroyed a ship worth 1.3bil for the cost of 171mil. You actually make a profit if the person is carrying 2 T1 battleship hulls? So basically unless you have a cargo hold of trit and nothing else, you're worth killing is my point here.

Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#49 - 2017-04-27 19:42:22 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Kassimila wrote:

Lets stop pretending that some doofus ISboxing 30 million isk worth of destroyers, without any repercussion for high sec ganking is a good and healthy game mechanic.

You will laugh, it is a good game mechanic. It effectively separates the stupid/greedy from the rest.


How so? Can you elaborate on your point?

Easy, people good at this game either don't get ganked or don't care if so. On the other side, people who complain or see ganks as a problem, you know ... look above. Blink


You're really missing the point here. The point is not ganks happening. The point is the relative ease in which they happen. It is currently far too cost effective to gank a freighter in high sec.
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2017-04-27 19:44:03 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

if someone is input broadcasting ccp will take action against them, and freighters can fit defensive mods, and it is outside of their role to fit offensive weapons.


That is a bit off topic, however I've seen a certain person that shall remain nameless input broadcasting for over a month now, no action taken.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#51 - 2017-04-27 19:45:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kassimila wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Quote:
Lets stop pretending that some doofus ISboxing 30 million isk worth of destroyers, without any repercussion for high sec ganking is a good and healthy game mechanic.
Why isn't it a good game mechanic?, without it there would be very little risk in hisec, which goes against one of the core principles of Eve, that being that somebody can screw up your day regardless of your location.


Well for one it's against the EULA to use that program for multiple inputs.
30M isk of destroyers being used for ganking is approximately 3-10 destroyers depending on fit, you don't need to use input broadcasting or 3rd party software to run 3-10 clients if you set your machine up properly.

Quote:
To your second point of 'the core principles of eve", if that was the case why did they ever buff concord to make them untankable? Why not allow the 1 billion isk freighters to fit weapons, and defensive mods? Let me be REALLY clear here. I have absolutely NO ISSUE, with the ability to gank players in high security space. My issue here is that there is zero counter play to the current systems functioning.
Concord were buffed to be unbeatable thanks to a group called MoO, who locked an entire chokepoint system down for weeks on end, killing everything that came through, while tanking Concord.

When CCP asked them to stop they ignored it and were thus scattered to the corners of the universe and Concord buffed so that it wouldn't happen again.

Kassimila wrote:
That is a bit off topic, however I've seen a certain person that shall remain nameless input broadcasting for over a month now, no action taken.
Have you reported them? Is their name Kusion? (Hint if it is, CCP have probably already looked into it, and IIRC he doesn't use input broadcasting or ISBoxer to carry out his activities, just cascaded windows and hotkeys to flip between clients.)

If CCP receive reports of suspected EULA voilations with respect to multiboxing they will conduct an indepth analysis of that person gameplay before taking action, that takes time.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#52 - 2017-04-27 19:49:54 UTC
Outside of a station, nowhere in EVE is safe. And even then, a station trader can lose all his wealth in one drunken transaction. So stations aren't all that 'safe' either.

All this "My space is more dangerous than yours" malarkey is just ego and the desire to troll and create arguments.

Here's the bottom line. Play properly for the type of space you are in and you are much safer than some doofus playing badly anywhere else. Simple as that.

Mr Epeen Cool
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#53 - 2017-04-27 19:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Kassimila wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Kassimila wrote:
Alright I'll bite. How does a player in a freighter 'avoid' a high sec gank? Let me set the situation for you. You're a lone pilot in a freighter, you jump through a gate into a .6 system. You begin aligning to warp to the next gate. Suddenly a random neutral in a mach locks you, scans you, and bumps you for the next 2 minutes of your life. 10+ catalysts log in, and blap you. Please tell me how you avoid that.


Tank your #$&@ing Freighter.

A Freighter with bulkheads fitted instead of inertial stabs has almost 55% more EHP and Bulkheads instead of Expanders means 120% more EHP, which means it takes that many more people and/or DPS to gank it, which makes it much harder to gank profitably. Throw in a little care with what you haul and when you do so and it's very easy to never get ganked in High Sec because the vast majority of the ganks in High Sec are done for profit.



That seems to be the consensus here. Tank your freighter/Make 20 alts yourself/don't carry enough to be gankable. So lets break that down.

Freighter cost: 1.23 bil
Purpose of Freighter: To haul many things.
Freighter Fit: x3 T2 bulkheads, EHP vs antimatter: 402k

vs

T1 Gank catalyst:
Cost: 3.8mil
DPS: 454 with overheat
Total Required for .5 sec kill: 45
Cost of Attack: 171mil

So: The break even on loot value is 350mil. Ignoring the fact that you just destroyed a ship worth 1.3bil for the cost of 171mil. You actually make a profit if the person is carrying 2 T1 battleship hulls? So basically unless you have a cargo hold of trit and nothing else, you're worth killing is my point here.



If you are worth killing, and you can afford to stuff millions of isk worth of stuff into a 1.3 bil hull, then why are you not worth escorting? If you are webbed into warp 2 seconds after you spawn (thus avoid a bump in the 1st place), that math becomes 0+0=0.

Again, that is the problem, the lack of willingness for high sec haulers to invest in 'transit security', not the cost of various ships. A single web alt can thwart the gank attempt of multiple gankers.

And if all else fails, that alt could just drop fleet and shoot you and defensively spawn CONCORD (unless this has changed since then, I don't keep up with this kind of thing as I don't foolishly haul stuff in high sec).
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#54 - 2017-04-27 20:00:01 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
You're really missing the point here. The point is not ganks happening. The point is the relative ease in which they happen. It is currently far too cost effective to gank a freighter in high sec.
Who makes it cost effective to gank freighters in hisec?

Oh that's right, the idiot flying the freighter.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2017-04-27 20:12:16 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Have you reported them? Is their name Kusion? (Hint if it is, CCP have probably already looked into it, and IIRC he doesn't use input broadcasting or ISBoxer to carry out his activities, just cascaded windows and hotkeys to flip between clients.)

If CCP receive reports of suspected EULA voilations with respect to multiboxing they will conduct an indepth analysis of that person gameplay before taking action, that takes time.


Their name may or may not be Kusion, and it doesn't take time. If you have > 5 accounts logged in from the same IP, and all those accounts are entering commands within 400ms of each other, you are using input broadcasting. This is a scriptable and detectable situation. You can't hotkey that fast between 10 accounts.

inb4 you say - If you have a good pc and are good you can! Ok cool, lets see a video. Record it, post it, then I'll believe it. I also want a second shot of the fingers on the keyboard to verify it's not just a local macro running.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2017-04-27 20:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Kassimila wrote:


That seems to be the consensus here. Tank your freighter/Make 20 alts yourself/don't carry enough to be gankable. So lets break that down.

Freighter cost: 1.23 bil
Purpose of Freighter: To haul many things.
Freighter Fit: x3 T2 bulkheads, EHP vs antimatter: 402k

vs

T1 Gank catalyst:
Cost: 3.8mil
DPS: 454 with overheat
Total Required for .5 sec kill: 45
Cost of Attack: 171mil

So: The break even on loot value is 350mil. Ignoring the fact that you just destroyed a ship worth 1.3bil for the cost of 171mil. You actually make a profit if the person is carrying 2 T1 battleship hulls? So basically unless you have a cargo hold of trit and nothing else, you're worth killing is my point here.



Armor repping the Charon with it's native resist with a Nestor will counter 3 catalyst. If you Guess the damage type right and fit armor resist mod because you have armor reps help for your Charon, each Nestor can now counter up to 6 catalyst. Please not that if you actaully want to go with an armor repping support, I would suggest going with the Amarr or Galente freighter because at least they have some armor buffer to dance in with damage and rep over time. Also, you can "ping" the resistance palting for relatively low cost and get better results.

Of course, this is not a fool proof solution but it sure as hell is better than trying to solo travel with a freighter. Remember to not try to make the Nestor cap stable. You really only have to rep until CONCORD scream game over and blow up all the gankers.

There are of course other options as long as you are willing to play with other players in this multiplayer game.

Jenn aSide wrote:


If you are worth killing, and you can afford to stuff millions of isk worth of stuff into a 1.3 bil hull, then why are you not worth escorting? If you are webbed into warp 2 seconds after you spawn (thus avoid a bump in the 1st place), that math becomes 0+0=0.

Again, that is the problem, the lack of willingness for high sec haulers to invest in 'transit security', not the cost of various ships. A single web alt can thwart the gank attempt of multiple gankers.

And if all else fails, that alt could just drop fleet and shoot you and defensively spawn CONCORD (unless this has changed since then, I don't keep up with this kind of thing as I don't foolishly haul stuff in high sec).


There is also of course that option who is arguably better.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2017-04-27 20:25:02 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Outside of a station, nowhere in EVE is safe. And even then, a station trader can lose all his wealth in one drunken transaction. So stations aren't all that 'safe' either.

All this "My space is more dangerous than yours" malarkey is just ego and the desire to troll and create arguments.

Here's the bottom line. Play properly for the type of space you are in and you are much safer than some doofus playing badly anywhere else. Simple as that.

Mr Epeen Cool


Logging into EVE is only ever not dangerous at all if you do not touch any controls while docked. In every other case, there is a risk.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#58 - 2017-04-27 20:26:32 UTC
Kassimila wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Have you reported them? Is their name Kusion? (Hint if it is, CCP have probably already looked into it, and IIRC he doesn't use input broadcasting or ISBoxer to carry out his activities, just cascaded windows and hotkeys to flip between clients.)

If CCP receive reports of suspected EULA voilations with respect to multiboxing they will conduct an indepth analysis of that person gameplay before taking action, that takes time.


Their name may or may not be Kusion, and it doesn't take time.
When CCP are looking at banning a player, they damn well make sure that the player in question is breaking the rules. Almost every Team Security investigation take time, because they have to be absolutely certain; CCP Peligro has said as much in the past.

Now show us on the spaceship where the evil Kusion gang touched you.

Quote:
If you have > 5 accounts logged in from the same IP, and all those accounts are entering commands within 400ms of each other, you are using input broadcasting. This is a scriptable and detectable situation. You can't hotkey that fast between 10 accounts.

inb4 you say - If you have a good pc and are good you can! Ok cool, lets see a video. Record it, post it, then I'll believe it. I also want a second shot of the fingers on the keyboard to verify it's not just a local macro running.
So you're telling me that you can't hit 2 or 3 keys in sequence in just under half a second? Roll; anybody that can type at a reasonable speed can do it, the average person averages between 30 and 40 words per minutes, that's way more than 120 characters and it doesn't require macros.

Oh and just for reference, the server tick is 1 second, multiple keystrokes made during the time between ticks may appear to have been made simultaneously and thus give the illusion of input broadcasting.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack

Fish Hunter
Un4seen Development
Sev3rance
#59 - 2017-04-27 20:26:39 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
1. web your freighter into warp, you should be gone before they can ever get that bump off
2. don't carry so much value in cargo so you aren't an attractive gank
3. fit bulk heads instead of cargo expanders to require more ships to gank.
4. set up some warp out bookmarks, they will likely bump you away from a celestial so burn out behind the gate and make some bookmarks in odd directions.
5. use instawarp bookmarks when leaving stations
6. use instadock bookmarks when going to stations.


I think you forgot the most obvious option

DON'T FLY A FREIGHTER - make someone else do it
Kassimila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2017-04-27 20:28:48 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

There are of course other options as long as you are willing to play with other players in this multiplayer game.



If you said that with a straight face I applaud you. Let me ask you how many times have you helped someone else by following their freighter alt in highsec webbing it for them within the last....2 years? I'm sorry but this "Lets just throw alts at it until the problem goes away" solution is kind of nonsense.