These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Alexander Bor
Polaris Global
#241 - 2017-03-23 09:13:53 UTC
Nice job CCP. It's funny to watch how mechanisms being implemented pull players in conflict LOL)
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2017-03-23 09:52:53 UTC
Lunarstorm95 wrote:
John McCreedy wrote:
My initial thoughts on these proposed changes are that it penalises small, specialised corporations and alliances whilst simultaneously making a lot easier for the larger alliances with support networks, either rental alliances or diversified memberships. More money going to the select few which exacerbates the problems in Eve.

My corporation has a modest moon mining operation. It pays the bills and limited SRP for our members. We are not rich to begin with and, being specialised as PvP, make less per month than your average incursion runner makes in a day. Similarly, our Alliance isn't big. like us it's specialised along PvP lines. We don't have copious amounts of Titans, our R64s pay for a modest SRP programme to help everyone enjoy doing what they do.

We now need to diversify and find miners. Miners aren't going to mine for nothing so our already modest income is going to take a significant hit. It means we become less attractive for players than larger alliances whose income will barely be affected with this proposed change. If lots of small, independant alliances go under and all Eve is left with is large power blocs, then the game stagnates which not only does that undermine what the new sov attempted to achieve but how is it possibly going to be healthy for the game.

I understand what you're trying to achieve here and I'm fully onboard with having more people in space, it's what the game's desperately needed for years now, but that has to be balanced against the harm you're going to do to those who don't want to be part of major power blocs. You need to find some way to shift the balance of income so it's spread out more evenly across a more diverse player base rather than trying to force square pegs into round holes.


My point exactly, but its downed out by the random 3 man groups who now are super excited about grabbing there 1 money moon, while med sized alliance die over funding because we cant chuck 3/4 of our member base into mining fleets.

Like in real life: you must support any activity you do.
Or you find someone who will be interested enough in you to support your activity.

Why you believe that you must be able to do what you like 'pvp' and evade all of the game outside?

I do pvp a little and i never ask for SRP. I support it with other means of making ISK.

This is pretty good change. Especially if all your 'pvp-only alliance supported by afk ISK" will adapt. That's what the game is about.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#243 - 2017-03-23 09:57:26 UTC
Hoshi wrote:
Querns wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hooray, even stricter dividing lines between the mega-alliance-null-stagnation and the 90%-of-the-playerbase! Exactly what this game needed! The barriers of entry to go from difficult to impossible! awesome!


So the large number of moons being freed up because of a need for active mining is somehow going to make "stagnation" worse?

I do see a future where several of the large blocks like PL and Goons actively going around with their supers and killing drilling refineries just to stop others from gaining utilizing those moons that they don't want to use themselves.

For some reason i think that they could do it already with POSes. But for some reason they do not ?

It's not that citadels are much easier to kill than POSes.

On the other hand POS does its job afk. You only visit it time by time to grab goo
Active mining would be impossible far from your land. Thus many moons will be free.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Stella Southstar
The Order of Merlin
Scumlords
#244 - 2017-03-23 10:21:49 UTC
Some ideas:

Divide moon elements per chunk of moon on a random basis with % probability skewed according to security, and drill times (size of the moon chunk)

So for example a null sec structure would get higher % chance for rare R64 whereas a Hisec structure would get a very very low chance to get R64 but could still happen in small quantities. Lowsec would sit some where in between.

These variables could be tweaked as required so as to not cause any upsets in the market.

Single moon asteroids would then yield a varied amount of elements in accordance to the probabilities above.

It would be nice to use moon probes to scan the moon after every cycle and redirect the beam to specific areas of the moon that are richer in one element as opposed to another. Similar to PI scanning at the moment.

The other variable is how long it would take to mine a complete field and the size of the field that is generated. Smaller chunks of moon should yield smaller fields which are faster to clear up but would give less possibility of getting rare elements.

Added thought:

I read in one of the comments before the idea of having automated bots/drones that can be enabled to mine. I don't think this is a good idea unless they are inefficient and could be siphoned. So an alliance/corp could allow automation but would get low yields and could leave the op open to be siphoned /attacked etc...
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2017-03-23 11:04:44 UTC
Another concern I have:

How many of these structures do we see being destroyed to keep driving the market for production? I'm not thinking that big Null groups will be risking facilities on moons where there won't be enough miners to make it worthwhile, so there will be a finite number of moons populated with refineries. These will most likely be in pretty secure systems and therefore won't die very often.

It is unlikely that these structures will be operating in many other areas of space so I think it is a real concern that this will create a stagnant production market for these structures, whilst at the same time handing over pretty much all tech II materials production to null.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#246 - 2017-03-23 11:06:25 UTC
So CCP: What stops me from anchoring, say, 5 refineries around a moon I want to keep? If you want it, you have to bash all 5 refineries, otherwise if you just bash the one with the drill I online my drill from another refinery before you get yours up. Oh, and their vuln hours are 1 hour apart to annoy you. It's going to be a huge pain to take that moon. Once I have it, if it's outside of my space there's not much I can do with it since I need people who will be willing to mine without backup. Mining ore worth twice as much isn't any good to me if I can't sell it because I die mining it. So I gain very little trying to push into someone else's space to get their moons. If you work really hard for little gain, you're going to be disincentivized to fight over moons. Why should we bother trying to take INIT moons if we get pretty much nothing out of it? Then we don't have epic battles with INIT, and that's bad.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
D3athIsHere
Sector260
#247 - 2017-03-23 11:13:45 UTC
Quote:
Each Refinery structure with an active moon drill will keep track of all the mining done in its associated belt, logging the character, corporation, ore type and amount mined. This will allow Refinery managers to share profits or request fees as they see fit, allow mining operations to more easily organize themselves, and allow corps and alliances to see who has been ninja-mining their fields without permission.


So ninja miners shall get found out and eventually killed off
SonofSilence
Initech Planet Services INC
#248 - 2017-03-23 11:27:20 UTC
Since you took down my first post, I will repost.


CCP and Dev Team....QUIT GAYING UP EVE PLEASE. Thanks!

Get rid of plex and free to play.

EVE is supposed to be hard.

If you want easy, go play World of Warcraft.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#249 - 2017-03-23 11:40:51 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
So CCP: What stops me from anchoring, say, 5 refineries around a moon I want to keep? If you want it, you have to bash all 5 refineries, otherwise if you just bash the one with the drill I online my drill from another refinery before you get yours up. Oh, and their vuln hours are 1 hour apart to annoy you. It's going to be a huge pain to take that moon. Once I have it, if it's outside of my space there's not much I can do with it since I need people who will be willing to mine without backup. Mining ore worth twice as much isn't any good to me if I can't sell it because I die mining it. So I gain very little trying to push into someone else's space to get their moons. If you work really hard for little gain, you're going to be disincentivized to fight over moons. Why should we bother trying to take INIT moons if we get pretty much nothing out of it? Then we don't have epic battles with INIT, and that's bad.


This is honestly a valid concern that CCP needs to address.

It may limit the freedom we've had with these structures so far, but only one refinery should be allowed within drilling range at any given time (like POSes are now). Not doing so will create the above scenario with 500% accuracy. Because people WILL spam 10 refineries on a single R64 moon just to bore the enemy to death.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#250 - 2017-03-23 11:42:58 UTC
SonofSilence wrote:
Since you took down my first post, I will repost.


CCP and Dev Team....QUIT GAYING UP EVE PLEASE. Thanks!

Get rid of plex and free to play.

EVE is supposed to be hard.

If you want easy, go play World of Warcraft.


EVE is still the hardest game I know, and if you had any notion of business whatsoever you'd know that PLEX and Free to Play are what kept this game alive and will keep it alive for the coming years.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#251 - 2017-03-23 11:43:21 UTC
SonofSilence wrote:
Since you took down my first post, I will repost.


CCP and Dev Team....QUIT GAYING UP EVE PLEASE. Thanks!

Get rid of plex and free to play.

EVE is supposed to be hard.

If you want easy, go play World of Warcraft.


Ooh, I gotta know -- why should CCP get rid of PLEX? :allears:

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#252 - 2017-03-23 11:55:12 UTC
Oh, not entirely unimportant.

Please tell me that Rorquals will be able to dock in the large refinery? Even if its the only capital ship that is able to dock there, surely a capital ship that is designed for resource gathering should be able to dock at a refinery. CCPlease.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
h4kun4
Senkawa Tactical Division
Crimson Citadel
#253 - 2017-03-23 12:57:27 UTC
A few things that made me cringe while thinking about it:

It might kill SRP, especially of smaller entities or Lowsec entities. - Buff to large nullsec Alliances
It might render Lowsec mooning pointless because seriously - who mines in Lowsec? - Buff to large nullsec alliances
It might bring us back to renter times of 2013 just that renter pay with moongoo instead of ISK. - Buff to large nullsec alliances

Conclusion:
It clearly favors large entities over small ones which is a step back considering Aegis Sov and Phoebe Jump Drives.
A small entity might not even be ready to defend their citadel after breaking ore out of the moon for long enough to mine the ore.
A buff of Nullsec automatically carries a Nerf to everyone else, except WH because they never had moonmining and WHs are already quite strong in terms of Risk vs. Reward.

In my opinion, you have to do a lot of designing work to do @CCP. I just hope it doesn't stay like this, because in that stae it would ruin the game for a lot of players.
SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#254 - 2017-03-23 13:01:10 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Oh, not entirely unimportant.

Please tell me that Rorquals will be able to dock in the large refinery? Even if its the only capital ship that is able to dock there, surely a capital ship that is designed for resource gathering should be able to dock at a refinery. CCPlease.


Maybe at the large structures, definitely not at the medium ones.
Ben Ishikela
#255 - 2017-03-23 13:09:38 UTC
Quote:
Once the chunk of moon rock has completed its journey into space, the Refinery can use its drill module to detonate the chunk into a minable asteroid field. The exact time of the detonation is controlled by the owners of the Refinery within limits. If the chunk is left unattended long enough it will disintegrate into the asteroid field on its own.

Why the delay?
I feel, that the Owner already scheduled the date with the teamminingcrew. So there was already a decision.
If formup is bad or enemy is prepared, why should this state of boredom be prolonged?
If it was immediately detonated upon impact, there is going to be a time of clash possible. The exact time that can be read by all.
Yes, ok. You might want to give the owner some feeling of power and control.
But in the end the only decision that comes out of this particular mechanic is:
Just do it Pirate
Wait Cry and go to bed late this night while not doing anything more meaningful in eve this session.

So CCPLEASE make it immediate!!!

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#256 - 2017-03-23 13:20:14 UTC
I like the concept as it places more ships in space. Why not extend it further and promote ships in wormhole space as well. The manufactured belt content need not be moon goo. In the wormhole context it could be a low sec grade ice or ore belt and it would still achieve that aim.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#257 - 2017-03-23 13:29:39 UTC
h4kun4 wrote:

It might kill SRP, especially of smaller entities or Lowsec entities. - Buff to large nullsec Alliances
It might render Lowsec mooning pointless because seriously - who mines in Lowsec? - Buff to large nullsec alliances


Perhaps you should adapt? Our organization has been de-emphasizing the portion of our income that comes from moongoo for years now, in anticipation of this change. The signs have been there for years; you just have to think a little further out from where your next Level 5 mission or travelling supercap gank comes from.

From all the apoplectic posting here and from without, it seems like lowsec entities have the adaptability of my last bowel movement.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
SIEGE RED
The Darwin Foundation
#258 - 2017-03-23 13:33:43 UTC
Querns wrote:
h4kun4 wrote:

It might kill SRP, especially of smaller entities or Lowsec entities. - Buff to large nullsec Alliances
It might render Lowsec mooning pointless because seriously - who mines in Lowsec? - Buff to large nullsec alliances


Perhaps you should adapt? Our organization has been de-emphasizing the portion of our income that comes from moongoo for years now, in anticipation of this change. The signs have been there for years; you just have to think a little further out from where your next Level 5 mission or travelling supercap gank comes from.

From all the apoplectic posting here and from without, it seems like lowsec entities have the adaptability of my last bowel movement.


It raises an interesting set of questions. Adaptation and innovation are always a necessity - but is it healthy if every player dynamic falls within the same guiding paths and ends up adopting the same kind of organisational model. I'm not so sure whether the underlying issue with the low sec people's responses is the passive isk dependancy, there may very well be much more to it in terms of having to become something they never wanted to be. Deliberately so. Granted, this too is a topic of adapting to changes, but it is also a topic of niche gameplay and connected choices.

sgtdale
WE Hate Corporations
#259 - 2017-03-23 13:34:54 UTC
the end of the pos is near
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#260 - 2017-03-23 13:45:02 UTC
sgtdale wrote:
the end of the pos is near


hail satan

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.